How do I Fly with a Bloated Head, Egotistical Instrument Instructor?

MBDiagMan

MBDiagMan

Final Approach
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May 8, 2011
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5,190
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Mount Pleasant,Texas
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Doc
I am in a remote location with a written that expires in April. I have tried to find an instrument instructor to work with and have tried options of going away for a fly your butt off course, but can’t schedule with such short notice.

There is an instructor that comes here from a metropolitan area a lot. I tried flying with him early on and we are oil and water. His modus operandi is to do a lot of non flight related talking while on the ground while you are paying him by the hour. When in the air as well as on the ground he belittles you while he is busy proving to you that he has the stick and rudder skills of Bob Hoover and you are merely a schmuck that on a good day has a chance of keeping an airplane from crashing.

I baled out of flying with him a year ago, but am running out of options. I had a number of things get in the way of doing this flying, but now I am ready to bite the bullet and pray for enough humility and patience so as not to want to open the door and push him out.

If you’ve ever flown with an instructor like this I would like to hear words of wisdom. I am preparing myself to just bite my tongue and take the implied insults as best I can. I’m just out of practical options.

Thanks for your comments!
 
Don't fly with an instructor that you don't like. There's no reason to put yourself through that. There are others out there.

The written? Don't let that one thing force you into a decision that will make you unhappy.
Suppose getting the instruction that you want requires you to take the written again? So what? Another $150 or whatever will be a small price to pay.
 
try to remind yourself that flying is supposed to be fun. unless you're flying with @OkieFlyer , then it's scary as a mofo.
 
Yep the written would not be a thought. You can retake those when you’re ready. Your instruction is way more important. Find the right person. Travel for it if you have to.


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Only instructors I’ve flown with like that were in the military. I had to deal with them, you don’t. Find someone who is a professional. You don’t want a pushover though either. Don’t confuse honest critique for unprofessionalism.
 
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Can you get to KTKI? @JCranford and I know someone who would fit your personality real good
 
Sounds like there’s a reason he’s readily available when you need him on a difficult schedule. LOL.

Just look harder for someone else to hire. No reason to employ a Johnson head with your hard earned money.
 
I guess it isn’t clear that I’m in a remote area with few, correct that, no other options.

I’m far enough away from Denton that it would be a problem, but if I have to wait until later, that might be the thing to do.

I do know about military instruction. I didn’t fly when I was in the Army, but I had NO choice except to do what I was told. That might be why it’s so difficult for me to fly with this guy, because I don’t HAVE to.
 
MBDiagMan said:
I guess it isn’t clear that I’m in a remote area with few, correct that, no other options.
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Travel. My schedule was damn near impossible to do the instrument back when I did it. Went to Nebraska on some time off and flew with @jesse which worked out great long-term.

Don’t hire a Dick. No point.
 
How far Northeast are you? There have to be a few independent instructors within a couple of hours...
 
MBDiagMan said:
I guess it isn’t clear that I’m in a remote area with few, correct that, no other options.

I’m far enough away from Denton that it would be a problem, but if I have to wait until later, that might be the thing to do.

I do know about military instruction. I didn’t fly when I was in the Army, but I had NO choice except to do what I was told. That might be why it’s so difficult for me to fly with this guy, because I don’t HAVE to.
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Lots of excuses, sounds like you better shelf the plan...…… or HTFU and git er done.
 
MBDiagMan said:
I guess it isn’t clear that I’m in a remote area with few, correct that, no other options
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Sounds like a situation ripe for going to a 10 day instrument school someplace. I wish I had, not because I had a bad instructor but we were very tired with each other at the end and I had a lot of time bailing out of work early to do it (lucky I have that flexibility). I think he was as happy to be done with me as I was with him after I got my rating!

There is zero reason to put up with abusive instructors. I did it in the military too and thank goodness they were rare but the couple I had I hope suffered in life.

Most of those schools are booked out for a bit (4-5 months in my investigation). Schedule it, spend the time prior retaking your written and flying some with friends to get some simulated time and go get it done.
 
put the guy on a slow boat to China and find someone else. I wouldn’t put up with an individual like that.
 
I passed on 4 instrument instructors before I found an outstanding one, progress was fast, check ride a breeze. It is well worth the trouble to shop around, and drive some extra miles to get a good instructor that matches your learning style.
 
One other possibility, have a direct conversation with the instructor.
- Don't want to pay for you to BS on the ground. Happy to chat, but not on the clock
- Here's a couple of things you do well, but I really don't think XY and Z are helping me much
- Do you think you're ok making these adjustments so we can work together?

Sounds like the OP is a bit stuck geographically and also sounds like this is a slim possibility. Having said that, there seems to be little downside in trying. At work I had a subordinate have a similar conversation with me. I was rubbing him the wrong way and didn't realize it. Ended up adjusting some things but not some others and got along fine with this guy for the duration of the project we were on.
 
yeah, that's tough.
I agree with others that retaking the written is minor in the big scheme of things.
I might be inclined to give the instructor another go, with an open mind. It might be just worth toughing through....
otherwise, the only other thing I can think of is to take a vacation and travel someplace for one of those accelerated ratings
 
While in flight..... turn your head to the right, clap your hand to your mouth, lean towards the instructor and make gagging, heaving noises.

He will be too busy trying to avoid the imagined projectile from entering his mouth and he will keep quiet....
 
MBDiagMan said:
I guess it isn’t clear that I’m in a remote area with few, correct that, no other options.

I’m far enough away from Denton that it would be a problem, but if I have to wait until later, that might be the thing to do.
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If all goes to plan, I might know of a potential someone who is potentially based in Denton who could be a potential solution for this if I... I mean he.... can get the double I done by then and both of ya potentially find a time on the calendar that works and potentially we fly the wings off your Mooney and get this done..... potentially.

AggieChoppedLiver88

PS. Once I get done with the current single I academy, I want a ride with you and your Mooney. Perhaps we make that happen and discuss.
 
And were are you again? Mount Pleasant?
 
MBDiagMan said:
I am in a remote location with a written that expires in April. I have tried to find an instrument instructor to work with and have tried options of going away for a fly your butt off course, but can’t schedule with such short notice.

There is an instructor that comes here from a metropolitan area a lot. I tried flying with him early on and we are oil and water. His modus operandi is to do a lot of non flight related talking while on the ground while you are paying him by the hour. When in the air as well as on the ground he belittles you while he is busy proving to you that he has the stick and rudder skills of Bob Hoover and you are merely a schmuck that on a good day has a chance of keeping an airplane from crashing.

I baled out of flying with him a year ago, but am running out of options. I had a number of things get in the way of doing this flying, but now I am ready to bite the bullet and pray for enough humility and patience so as not to want to open the door and push him out.

If you’ve ever flown with an instructor like this I would like to hear words of wisdom. I am preparing myself to just bite my tongue and take the implied insults as best I can. I’m just out of practical options.

Thanks for your comments!
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As others pointed out, don't let the written exam rush you into a training you are going to regret.

An instructor who takes the control too much is a big red flag. It might be ok with a pre-solo student, but not much beyond that. Billing you for time spent chatting is also unprofessional. Your remote location might be a unique challenge, but there are plenty of great instructors around if you are willing to venture out a bit.
 
Have you looked at the FAA airmen database to find a CFII in your area?
 
AggieMike88 said:
If all goes to plan, I might know of a potential someone who is potentially based in Denton who could be a potential solution for this if I... I mean he.... can get the double I done by then and both of ya potentially find a time on the calendar that works and potentially we fly the wings off your Mooney and get this done..... potentially.

AggieChoppedLiver88

PS. Once I get done with the current single I academy, I want a ride with you and your Mooney. Perhaps we make that happen and discuss.
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I hope you don't explain hold entries in that way! :D:p:D:eek:
 
I once told a flight examiner to "shut up " on my instrument check ride. He smiled and asked what took me so long.

Maybe you should give him a second chance...show him you are serious.

In A&P school, they sent the class to a tough instructor in the first semester...they tried to weed out the guys that could not take criticism .

I am not saying everything in life should be a boot camp, but over the years people are getting a bit soft and too sensitive....

Potentially of course :)
 
First of all, I agree with everyone that said find another instructor. It’s your money and your time, vote with your wallet and move on.

But... that being said, you asked for advice, and you’re going to get what you paid for.

First, you’re not going to change the guy. You are going to have to learn to deal with the guy. It’s possible that this guy is too difficult to get along with, but it’s more likely that his personality and yours just don’t match. It’s also likely that you don’t have the skills and experience to deal with his personality type.

So, my assumption at this point is that the problem is not the instructor, but is in fact... you.

Your place is not to call a man that has worked hard to become a Certified Flight Instructor-Instrument, a CFII, a “Bloated Head” or an “Egotistical Instrument Instructor”. It is instead your job to call him: Sir.

It is not your place to criticize what he talks about on the ground or in the air. It is your place to find the kernels of knowledge that he is trying to impart.

Check your ego. Listen, learn. And realize that he has what you want, knowledge and skill and the ability to sign that little piece of paper that lets you take your instrument check ride.

With that being said, please realize that this is an Internet forum and assumptions are made; you get what you paid for; and your mileage may vary. And if we meet in real life, first beer is on me.


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Unfortunately, not every skilled practitioner is a good teacher. Good teachers are hard to find. A good teacher is invested in YOUR success, and will try to be supportive and patient, even when faced with students that are less than optimally engaged. As a career academic, I can say that it can be trying at times, and some cases are hopeless, but mostly some students are just slow learners. Most every teacher appreciates a student, however talented or not, that shows engagement and interest. If you are not getting support and encouragement despite your personal engagement and interest, then that situation needs to change.

Having said all that, you have two choices: (1) a frank conversation with your instructor that you need their support, patience, and encouragement to help you become a safe and competent instrument pilot. Maybe that will work, maybe not; (2) look for another instructor that can provide you with the support, patience, and encouragement you need to achieve your goal of obtaining your IR. You will rarely gain much from a toxic teacher-student relationship.
 
One thing you never said is how close to completion are you? If you're just starting, find a different instructor. I've had guys I don't mesh with and it makes it way harder than it needs to be. And don't worry about the written. Once you find another instructor, take a weekend, go through the questions again. It will all come back.

On the other hand, if you're ready for a check ride and only need a few hours to get signed off, I'd give the guy another chance just to get done.
 
This is nuts. Who has a good enough job to own an airplane who doesn’t get a couple weeks vacation? Schedule the PIC in place of one of them. Pay them to come to you, it’ll be worth it. As for the written, you passed it once, you can pass it again.
You NEED this. Your airplane is fast enough that you’re going to get into weather. I’m in the same boat, I need to get back to my own IR training.
 
drjcustis said:
Your place is not to call a man that has worked hard to become a Certified Flight Instructor-Instrument, a CFII, a “Bloated Head” or an “Egotistical Instrument Instructor”. It is instead your job to call him: Sir.

It is not your place to criticize what he talks about on the ground or in the air. It is your place to find the kernels of knowledge that he is trying to impart.
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Utter BS. Not only because there’s plenty of CFIs who work hard to be professionals who deserve the money much more than a moron CFI who only has one tool in his pocket, belittling the student...

But also because all CFIs know at least a few who barely hold on to their CFI certificates even through 709 rides and that the DPEs utterly despise them.

Not saying this guy is THAT bad, but there’s a lot of bad teachers in the CFI pool.

It’s not the military so you get to hire and pay whoever you want to teach you, from a mutual point of respect, and this CFI isn’t Bob Hoover.

Fate is the Hunter with some guy lighting matches under your nose is cute for the previous century and jokes, but the reality is that a professional instructor needs a lot more skills in his teaching arsenal than continual beratement of a person spending over $10,000 for a primary certificate and pushing that for subsequent ones.

Maybe he can survive on the piddly pay from a few masochists who want to play games with him and have a safe word. LOL.

I recommend the phrase, “You aren’t getting paid if you don’t start teaching instead of yelling, dumbass.”
 
Before I respond to Hangs post I want to thank everyone for your various forms of feedback. When I wrote the OP, I had pretty much decided I was going to sit down with him and try to come to an agreement as Hang 4 described and give him another try. I have too much on my plate to do anything else before the written expires. It is a last ditch effort to knock it out and move on without kicking the can down the road into Summer or later.

The comment about the problem being me is partially true, but I can’t except that just because someone earns a CFII it is impossible for them to be a bloated head egomaniac. I’ve been around awhile and have known some people who earned degrees and honors much higher on the scale than a CFII and there were a few of them that were worse than this guy.

One reason I have trouble with dealing with someone like this is that when in the Army almost fifty years ago I had to grin and bear it with guys like this and absolutely no recourse or the option to walk away. Worse yet, before it was all over with I was in the position of kicking you know what’s myself and was very pleased to receive my discharge and find something else to do for a living. Since I now have a choice in such matters I choose not to take verbal abuse or a demeaning attitude aimed at me.

Hang 4 said:
One other possibility, have a direct conversation with the instructor.
- Don't want to pay for you to BS on the ground. Happy to chat, but not on the clock
- Here's a couple of things you do well, but I really don't think XY and Z are helping me much
- Do you think you're ok making these adjustments so we can work together?

Sounds like the OP is a bit stuck geographically and also sounds like this is a slim possibility. Having said that, there seems to be little downside in trying. At work I had a subordinate have a similar conversation with me. I was rubbing him the wrong way and didn't realize it. Ended up adjusting some things but not some others and got along fine with this guy for the duration of the project we were on.
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Before we parted ways almost a year ago, we had a conversation much like the one you outlined above. He has done some instruction off and on since then at our little airport and recently started working with a few friends who also see him as just about their only alternative. I have always been courteous to him and maintained a cordial exchange when seeing him. I talked to him a few days ago and this morning we flew to a nearby towered airport, shot an approach, did a VOR test, flew home and shot another approach. His attitude has improved on many fronts and my tolerance for him has improved. He restrained himself from the egotistical persona and didn’t talk down to me as before. He also got right down to business and said what we’re doing is getting you ready for the checkride, which is different from before when it seemed as though his main goal was to charge me for his time. We had a lot of discussion before we decided to part ways a year ago and I think he remembered it.

He knows how to instruct and he knows how to prepare you for the checkride. We’re going to do DME arcs and the cross country and get ready for the checkride. It might work this time. I am headed to Europe in April and won’t be back before the written expires. If this doesn’t work. I’ll retake the written and ride with one of my POA friends who should have his CFII by then.
 
steingar said:
This is nuts. Who has a good enough job to own an airplane who doesn’t get a couple weeks vacation?
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Eh it might be telling that I left the company/industry, but for years I worked at a place where I started with 2 weeks vacation and only after 5 years did I earn a whopping 3 weeks vacation, where I was stuck at (there is a cap) until I reached 9 years of tenure, and quit. About 30% travel and the rest of the time, 9 hours/day at the office. That's actually not far from average for many small/medium sized businesses in the private sector. And it was a good job in a well paying industry. Taking 1.5-2 weeks off to finish an instrument rating would have been hard.
 
AggieMike88 said:
If all goes to plan, I might know of a potential someone who is potentially based in Denton who could be a potential solution for this if I... I mean he.... can get the double I done by then and both of ya potentially find a time on the calendar that works and potentially we fly the wings off your Mooney and get this done..... potentially.

AggieChoppedLiver88

PS. Once I get done with the current single I academy, I want a ride with you and your Mooney. Perhaps we make that happen and discuss.
Click to expand...
I expect you to come over to Colorado....there are a number of instrument students in need of help.
 
steingar said:
This is nuts. Who has a good enough job to own an airplane who doesn’t get a couple weeks vacation? Schedule the PIC in place of one of them. Pay them to come to you, it’ll be worth it. As for the written, you passed it once, you can pass it again.
You NEED this. Your airplane is fast enough that you’re going to get into weather. I’m in the same boat, I need to get back to my own IR training.
Click to expand...

You make a great point, but I am retired with a wife, kids, Grandkids and a few other things that keep me tied down most of the time, but I can get away if necessary. I waited too late to schedule a fly my butt off class before the written expires. With the instructor singing a different tune now, I will try to make this work before April. If that doesn’t work I’ll study up for the written and go to Denton and fly with Mike. I just fooled around too long and it’s time to saddle up.

To dell’s response to your post, I spent much of my career working like he describes. I understand perfectly and I am so glad to be retired with enough resources to live life with my family while I’m still healthy.
 
I have found when people annoy me it is often something in myself that I don’t like.

This instructor is the key to accomplishing your goals so just suck it up and make it happen.

As a percentage of your training cost paying for a few hours of pointless blather is a pretty minor expense.

I have had several flight instructors like this and I managed to learn despite the bitter taste.

Good luck on your aviation adventure.
 
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