How common are near misses?..

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cville4

Filing Flight Plan
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Cville4
First, I'm obviously a newbie here, and my interest in GA has really grown as of late, thus I plan on starting my journey towards obtaining my PPL within the next year or so. Recently I met up with a neighbor of mine who is a private pilot and owns his own aircraft (DA40). He offered to take me up for a flight around the local area, and suffice to say I had an absolute blast. This was only my second time in a small plane (C172 a good few years back), and I must say that, at least compared to the 172, I absolutely loved the DA40, and it seems like a great airplane. If nothing else, the views were nothing short of spectacular and it seemed like a fun plan to fly.

Anyway, afterwards I asked him about any scary situation or incidents that he might have experienced (he's been a pilot for 9 years...not sure the number of hours), and he stated he's only had one, which occurred during IFR training and really shook him up a bit. Apparently while in training they had a very close call with another aircraft, which certainly startled both and and the FI. He went on to say that the incident again really scared him, but he overcame it mentally and everything has been relatively smooth ever since.

With that said, I'm curious just how common such incidents are. I'm aware that midair collisions are quite rare, so there are probably many other things that I should worry about instead (mechanical failure, weather, my own proficiency, etc), but I guess it surprised me a bit that you could do everything right, yet someone else could totally ruin your day or life (as unlikely as that might be, particularly compared to driving).

Thanks in advance for your input, and I look forward to learning a lot for you all here.
 
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Fly long enough, and you'll have one. In 2,300ish hours, I can think of 2. There's probably another one or two that I forgot about.

Both were VFR airplanes that were talking to nobody, and I was on an IFR flight plan in severe clear.
 
What is going on here. Everyone is afraid to fly anymore?

There are three threads about what if's and such.

Ease Family concerns
Engine outs
and now near misses.
 
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yea, and I thought I was a chicken...

Ease Family concerns - I fly and they are concerned, nothing I can do about that one.

Engine outs - my turn is likely coming. the ELSA guys around me have one every other week, so I'm regularly getting pointers on what to do when it happens.

Near Misses - had a R22 chopper headed right for me while I was low slow and on final this past Sunday. They turned, I landed.

Meanwhile, I just about got freak'n KILLED driving to lunch this afternoon - these IDIOTS CAN NOT DRIVE!
 
Define 'near miss', because some people think anything within 100 yards is a near miss, that's pretty frequent. I consider it a near miss if I can see rivets, and in 2500hrs I can only recall one. I was flying along between LA and SF and all of a sudden controller comes on loud and fast sounding scared "04Y IMMEDIATE DESCENT!" I had it shoved forward before he finished "descent" and King Air passed RIGHT over the top of me, I could see his belly rivets. That was around 700hrs. There have been a few others where traffic got within 100' or so before spotting, but we weren't on a collision course.
 
In almost 4,000 hours I've taken evasive action once that I can recall....can't say I could count any rivets but I wasn't trying at the time.
 
I can think of maybe two or three times when I've come unexpectedly and uncomfortably close to another airplane, to the point where I've taken evasive action even though I probably wasn't on a collision course.

The one time though I actually had a near collision was landing at KAPC, when I was cleared #1 for landing, and the #2 Bonanza overtook me from directly above and came maybe twenty feet from my plane. I had some words for him.
 
cville4 said:
First, I'm obviously a newbie here, and my interest in GA has really grown as of late, thus I plan on starting my journey towards obtaining my PPL within the next year or so. Recently I met up with a neighbor of mine who is a private pilot and owns his own aircraft (DA40). He offered to take me up for a flight around the local area, and suffice to say I had an absolute blast. This was only my second time in a small plane (C172 a good few years back), and I must say that, at least compared to the 172, I absolutely loved the DA40, and it seems like a great airplane. If nothing else, the views were nothing short of spectacular and it seemed like a fun plan to fly.

Anyway, afterwards I asked him about any scary situation or incidents that he might have experienced (he's been a pilot for 9 years...not sure the number of hours), and he stated he's only had one, which occurred during IFR training and really shook him up a bit. Apparently while in training they had a very close call with another aircraft, which certainly startled both and and the FI. He went on to say that the incident again really scared him, but he overcame it mentally and everything has been relatively smooth ever since.

With that said, I'm curious just how common such incidents are. I'm aware that midair collisions are quite rare, so there are probably many other things that I should worry about instead (mechanical failure, weather, my own proficiency, etc), but I guess it surprised me a bit that you could do everything right, yet someone else could totally ruin your day or life (as unlikely as that might be, particularly compared to driving).

Thanks in advance for your input, and I look forward to learning a lot for you all here.
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First of all, welcome!

Second, don't listen to the comments implying that you must be some kind of wimp to have some fear about flying. A little fear is natural, and some fear is healthy, assuming it's not the debilitating kind. I would be hesitant to get into a plane with a pilot who said he or she had no fear!

That said, I've only logged 142 hours, so I'm certainly no expert, but in that limited time, I've come closer to other planes than I would have liked just twice. Both times I saw them, but I'm not sure they saw me. In any case, I lived to tell about it, so I guess it wasn't as close as it seemed at the time. Definitely not as close as when you're on a two-lane country road, hurtling in opposite directions just a few feet apart, in the dark, knowing there's a good chance the other person is drunk or texting.:wink2:

Good luck on your journey to a PPL!
 
colojo said:
You missed one:

Thinking about a boat

:D
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Once you realize PoA is a great place to talk about life stuff amongst other pilots, and sometimes maybe talk about a plane, it all falls into place. :D
 
Trivia question for you trainees, how do you know if you are on a collision course with a distant airplane?
 
In 700 hours I've had to take evasive action once. Pilots worry way too much about midairs. There are perhaps a handful a year. What kills pilots is still running into adverse weather and running out of gas.
 
brian];1545949 said:
yea, and I thought I was a chicken...

Ease Family concerns - I fly and they are concerned, nothing I can do about that one.

Engine outs - my turn is likely coming. the ELSA guys around me have one every other week, so I'm regularly getting pointers on what to do when it happens.

Near Misses - had a R22 chopper headed right for me while I was low slow and on final this past Sunday. They turned, I landed.

Meanwhile, I just about got freak'n KILLED driving to lunch this afternoon - these IDIOTS CAN NOT DRIVE!
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Brian, you live in Arkansas, do they even TEACH drivers ed down there?:D
 
Sac Arrow said:
Trivia question for you trainees, how do you know if you are on a collision course with a distant airplane?
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The distant airplane appears to have no relative motion. Is that correct for a head on collision?
Or when that airplane gets really really big in your windscreen. :hairraise:
 
Most of them are within 5 miles of an airport. And most of those are in the pattern.
 
BIG SKY little airplanes :D
My only true close call was in 1994 or 95, it was the day before a big billfish tournament in Panama City Florida. I had taken our boat captain out looking for weed lines, color changes, anything that would give us a clue on where to fish the next morning. We were buzzing along about 50-60 miles offshore, spotted something floating and I turned to investigate. We flew in a circle to see what it was, and as I started to straighten up, I got a windshield full of Turbo Commander, and I do mean a windshield FULL! :hairraise::hairraise: I would say we passed within 100 feet of each other!:yikes:
Needless to say we headed back to Panama City, the Commander landed about the same time we did, I asked him if they saw anything, "nope" "Us neither" :D A good fisherman never tells his secrets.;)
 
evapilotaz said:
The distant airplane appears to have no relative motion. Is that correct for a head on collision?
Or when that airplane gets really really big in your windscreen. :hairraise:
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Correct, but it takes both not 'or', the proper phrase is "Continuous Bearing; Diminishing Range" You need both of them to have a collision.
 
Once you accept you're going to die, how is just a curiosity, until then it's more an obsession, that's mostly what you see, a mix of curiosity and obsession.
 
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cville4 said:
How common are near misses?..
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Don't know, but they will become far more common now with ADS-B mostly because many of the near misses prior to ADS-B either one or both of the pilots had no clue one just occurred.

I had a cluster of ones pop up on the way to Oshkosh as I passed over an airport.... GDL-39/IPAD was warning me, I was looking everywhere, doing clearing turns.... couldn't see a single target... but whoever it was kept on my tail... finally I just did a 45d to the vector my poltergeist was on and all of a sudden they all disappeared. I'm inclined to think it was a software error but regardless it made me think (and worry) near miss.
 
Bobanna said:
And, I'd add "shoulderbelts"
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Why in the world would you add that to a fear of flying sub-thread?

Serious question.

Just the opposite, the guy that add's shoulder belts does it because he fly's and he knows **** happens. I've added them to 2 of the 3 planes I've owned, and had the chance to use them on the second plane and I'm convinced they are what allowed me to walk away. I got back up, brushed myself off, and bought another plane... and added shoulder belts before I flew it the first time.

Don't confuse fear of flying with undue bravado. I want every reasonable safety device on my aircraft and that includes boots/heated props, a backup AI and yes shoulder belts.

p.s.

Was trying to figure out where this came from and I saw another post you made (below).... oddly enough I have the exact same feelings so perhaps I misunderstood.

Bobanna said:
First off, why would anybody fly a light plane without shoulder belts? While I generally refuse to operate a GA plane without them, there have been times when I have (eg checkout in a vintage Apache...I felt very uncomfortable). While shoulder belts don't offer any protection in a severe crash, their benefit is enormous in a situation like a controlled forced landing. Much like wearing a helmet while driving or riding a motorcycle.
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The ones that are scary are the ones you don't see. I had an experience a couple of months ago where I was IFR and descending to an airport (Fredericksburg TX). I was passing through 11,000 feet on the way down to 4,000 feet when the controller suddenly told me she had an "unknown" aircraft who was not talking to her and looked like had just left Horseshoe Bay converging on me rapidly. I then saw it pop up on my TAS traffic. She gave me a vector but then almost immediately told me that I should "do whatever you need to do to avoid the traffic". Just like that. Simultaneously I got a traffic alert. :yikes: I was just above a broken cumulus layer and the traffic was below and there was no way I could see him. I immediately stopped my descent to stay above the layer so I could at least have a fighting chance to see and avoid and turned sharply away from the target as I could see it on my TAS screen. I never did see him (I think he passed behind me). The controller then got busy getting a King Air out of the way. Whoever it was then checked in with the controller who asked him if he had just departed Horseshoe Bay which he acknowledged and then she chewed him out saying "you got really close to two other planes". It was a Citation which explained how quickly it converged on me.

Not sure how close he got to us (I never did see him visually).
 
evapilotaz said:
The distant airplane appears to have no relative motion. Is that correct for a head on collision?
Or when that airplane gets really really big in your windscreen. :hairraise:
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Henning said:
Correct, but it takes both not 'or', the proper phrase is "Continuous Bearing; Diminishing Range" You need both of them to have a collision.
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Yep. You're either on a convergent or divergent path. The the little blob is getting smaller, no problem. If it's getting bigger, then....
 
Just one near miss for me. Climbing out of 5W8 a Cessna went just over me, opposite direction. Could count the rivets.

I've had a few other surprises but nothing I could really say is a near miss.

Mid air crashes are rare.
 
Sac Arrow said:
I can think of maybe two or three times when I've come unexpectedly and uncomfortably close to another airplane, to the point where I've taken evasive action even though I probably wasn't on a collision course.

The one time though I actually had a near collision was landing at KAPC, when I was cleared #1 for landing, and the #2 Bonanza overtook me from directly above and came maybe twenty feet from my plane. I had some words for him.
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From what I've read, what you describe is how MANY mid airs occur, in or near a pattern. One plane overtakes another without seeing it. Usually it's due to a dunce refusing to use or not having a radio. In a little over 4000 hours, many landings and take offs, I've only had one close call and it was a twin commanche on a straight in , once again, no radio transmission, saw him as I turned base , dove and kept on going away from the airport. He never saw me he stated. I called downwind, and again turning base just before I saw him. Nothing as dramatic as my seeing rivets but he would have hit me on final I'm sure.
 
Jeff K said:
Don't know, but they will become far more common now with ADS-B mostly because many of the near misses prior to ADS-B either one or both of the pilots had no clue one just occurred.
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:rofl::rofl::rofl: There is probably more truth there than any of us want to admit to.
 
Sac Arrow said:
Yep. You're either on a convergent or divergent path. The the little blob is getting smaller, no problem. If it's getting bigger, then....
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The biggest thing that I always have to teach about Rules of the Road is exactly this, all the steering rules (passing sides, who is stand on, who is give way)... None of it applies unless both these factors are present and there is a risk of collision. I'm always amazed when running along the coast and I'm going to pass someone Stbd to starboard, or observing a new mate on watch doing the same, and they will 45° to cross for port to port. "No, you only turn to avoid a collision, what you just did was turn to create a risk of collision that didn't exist."

Then I show them the rules, "When risk of collision has been determined...".
 
I think they are much more common than realized. Especially in the east and probably on the west coast too. Lots of traffic landing and taking off constantly, no radios being used in a lot of cases, haze, fog, etc. a lot are never seen by the pilot.
 
Every time you go up you face a near miss. That's what you train for, and what you should expect. That and an engine failure.
 
I've never understood why they call them a near miss. They are really a near hit.

Now, I can cross the Bay Bridge to the Haight or the Tenderloin and see lots of near misses...
 
Sac Arrow said:
I've never understood why they call them a near miss. They are really a near hit.

Now, I can cross the Bay Bridge to the Haight or the Tenderloin and see lots of near misses...
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They are a near miss because most people try to MISS, not hit.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
From what I've read, what you describe is how MANY mid airs occur, in or near a pattern. One plane overtakes another without seeing it.
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Had one in the making last week. I'm coming in from the northwest to do right traffic for runway 08. I'm over the town looking for the AeroStar ahead of me on downwind ~2-3 miles away when I see him go under me. :hairraise:

Yeap.... Einstein was on left traffic. Not a near miss since I don't tend to buzz urban areas below 1000 feet as he was but still eye opening. I let him know it was right traffic but he ignored that and kept going in on left traffic for the rest of the downwind and base.

And I say Einnstein because even if he didn't look at a chart most airports with right traffic do it for a reason. Farmland to the south..... denser urban downtown to the north in this case.

It's worse on the weekend but I think I'll make sure to quiz them if they don't call out the traffic pattern in the future on right traffic fields.
 
I did see a twin one day later than I would have liked to, about the same altitude, he was going from slightly to my left to right. I think we would have passed by several hundred feet anyway but by the look on his face (yeah we were pretty close) he saw me about when I saw him. He rolled to his left so I rolled to my left and down. Closer than I would have liked for sure but see and avoid worked.

What I don't like is when you notice a plane even a few thousand feet away and you feel like you should have seen it much sooner. :mad2:
 
I'm a very low time pilot and I went up this past Saturday. We were headed directly for a banner tower, I noticed it and steered the plane out of the way. It was a clear day so I was watching out for everything!
 
Low hour Pilot in training (35 hours), and I have 2 situations that got my attention. Near misses...maybe.

First one, landing KISP runway 6, lots of traffic in the pattern, tower has me #2 to land behind a 152 doing short field T&Gs. I'm catching the 152 rapidly until I am just about over the end of the runway, and the 152 hasn't even touched down yet. Tower tells me to go around so at about 200ft I hit the gas, and start overtaking the 152 who has now started his role to take off. Flaps up, I hang a right over the field, in front of the Southwest terminal, opposite of the traffic pattern. I never felt in danger because I saw the 152 all the time but I think it was close. Tower gave me priority to re-enter the pattern and land.

Second one, taking off KGTN (Groton, CT), runway 5, practicing short field take off. Half flaps, full throttle for 4 seconds, climb out at 55kts, clear the trees to find one of those planes towing a banner over the beach at about 400ft to my left heading right for me. Not a word from the tower except to fly runway heading after departure. I could see the guy in the plane who was looking down I guess to find a good crowd to fly over. I had to turn in front of him because I didn't want to risk flying into the banner. Couldn't have been more then 100ft because like I said I could see the guy swiveling his head looking down at the crowd on the beach.

That's all I have so far. First 35 hours have been a blast.
 
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I may have had one a few days ago were I might have filed a NASA report just in case they pulled the tapes. :hairraise:

I'm 90% sure it was a ATC screw up.
 
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