How common are near misses?..

CTLSi said:
Every time you go up you face a near miss. That's what you train for, and what you should expect. That and an engine failure.
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Train for a near miss? How does that happen if you don't see each other?It happens so fast that your , in many cases, unable to respond at all. Most important to use the radio when in or near a pattern.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
Train for a near miss? How does that happen if you don't see each other?It happens so fast that your , in many cases, unable to respond at all. Most important to use the radio when in or near a pattern.
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Don't waste your time trying to make sense of that.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
Train for a near miss? How does that happen if you don't see each other?It happens so fast that your , in many cases, unable to respond at all. Most important to use the radio when in or near a pattern.
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You train to avoid...you are trained to have your head on a swivel looking OUTSIDE 80% of the time for traffic. If you are not doing that, you are endangering yourself, especially around Unicom uncontrolled.
 
I still get a little upset when I think of this. I have had two near hits with military helicopters flying through traffic patterns without talking.

The third near hit, again with a CH-46, nearly wiped me out twice.

It was February 2004 in Kotzebue, AK, and I was flying a C-207 that day. Kotzebue is a non towered airport with a FSS on field. The Class E was in effect with visibility 1 mile due to snow. The runway is east west, 9-27. I was coming in from the northeast. I heard the military traffic call Flight Service and ask for special VFR. The CH-46 was coming from the south east. The military hanger is on the south side of the runway. I would be entering traffic pattern on the north side of the runway.

After the CH-46 received SVFR clearance into the Class E, I called flight service and advised them I would be holding over the mouth of the Noatak (river), a known VFR holding area. Flight service acknowledged and gave me current weather. Still 1 mile vis due to snow.

The CH-46 came back on the radio and advised flight service that he would agree to share the airspace and would keep a visual separation from my aircraft. My first thought was to just hold and wait for him to land, but my lunch was waiting for me at the terminal, so I concurred sharing the airspace. I was then given clearance into the Class E by flight service.

I did a normal pattern at 1000 AGL. I entered downwind at midfield, turned a normal base, then turned final about 1 mile from the approach end of runway 9. Visibility was a little more obscured than reported, but I still knew I would see the runway.

As the end of the runway was coming into view, flight service came on the radio. "Billy the CH-46 is crossing the runway." I added go around power, pulled up the nose and started a turn to the south knowing that the helicopter was passing from south to north. At about 100 AGL I saw the helicopter. I increased the bank angle to 60 degrees to avoid the rotor, still about 75 feet off the ground, and really close to me.

As soon as I knew I would miss the rear rotor, I started to level the wings and do a normal go around to the southeast. At wings level I hit the rotor wash. I was now in trouble. The rotor wash is taking me for a ride. I kept seeing spots on the ground and was thinking that is where we are going to hit. I was not in control of the aircraft and I am now less than 50 feet above the ground. At this time the stall warning started sounding. While we were riding the bucking bronco, I had my finger on the mic button and used many words that meant I was not impressed with the A/C commanders leadership ability. During this time I never quit flying but held on and finally left the rotor wash. As I was regaining control, I saw the military hanger and realized I was looking up to see it. I turned another 50 degrees right and missed the hanger, but now I am seeing the flight service station. Knowing the antennas are right behind the building, I turned 45 degrees left. Another minute and I was back in the traffic pattern and at altitude.

I told flight service I am entering a right base for runway 9 and will make it short for the ramp.

I made my spot on the runway, made the next turnoff and headed straight for the CH-46, still running. I stopped, got out and headed for the crewman outside the helicopter but still connected to the intercom. I grabbed him by his shoulder, spun him around, stuck my finger in his face and said "Get me the A/C commander right now!!" I could see a light Colonel looking at me through the window of the left front seat. After a minute he got out. I met him on the ramp and proceeded to call him everything I could think of. "What kind of bone headed moronic maneuver was that? What idiot thought that crossing an active runway in low visibility was approved?"

After a few seconds or so, I realized I had him by his collar and was literally nose to nose with him, so I shoved him back against his aircraft and turned around. He asked, "Do you want to report this incident?" I turned back around and stuck my fist in his face. I told him, "No, you are going to report this with your CO. And then you will inform him to call me and explain your stupidity to me." I gave him a business card and turned to leave.

As I turned there were 6 or 7 military personal standing in a semicircle watching the activities. I walked straight towards them and they parted like the Red Sea. I got into my blue and white C-207, cranked up and taxied into our company parking area.

As I walked into our terminal, the station manager was standing there on the phone. I heard him say, "Yeah, he just walked in." He handed the phone to me. It was Charley at flight service.

"Billy, just letting you know that I closed your flight plan for you."

"Ok, thanks. Sorry, I forgot that. Did you guys see the air show I put on?"

"Yeah, we saw it. Just to let you know we alerted fire and rescue just in case."

"HaHa.... you guys were really confident on my flying skills.!!"

"No, the rescue guys were for just in case your discussion with the pilot escalated. Also just to let you know that visibility just went to 1/4 mile."

Later that day I had a phone call from an officer from Fort Richardson.

"William XXXX please."

"Speaking"

"William this is Colonel Smith (not real name) and I am calling you to ask you a few questions about the incident in Kotzebue. What was the flight visibility at the time of the incident?"

"Colonel, the visibility at the airport was reported at 1 mile due to snow. I would say the flight visibility was closer to 1/2 mile."

William, what was the distance between you and the CH-46 when you saw it?"

"Colonel, I saw the aircraft at when I was about 500 feet away from it. The aircraft was just starting to cross the runway."

"William, at anytime did you hear the pilot of the CH-46 state on the radio that he was crossing the runway?"

"No sir Colonel Smith. There was no radio call. The Flight Service Station will back me up on that, and it has been recorded on tape. I will call flight service and request a copy of that tape."

"Ok, thank you William. I think we have all we need to start an investigation. We will write up a preliminary report and send it to you to look over. If there is anything that needs to be changed, call me and let me know. I have your military records with me so I don't have to remind you that this is now an official military investigation and you will not discuss this with anyone except personnel from my office."

I had been out of the army for 19 years at this point. I am still a little surprised that he could pull my records, much less know I had ever been in any military service.

Two weeks later I received a large envelope in the mail. It was the report. Everything looked correct so I made a copy, signed the original and sent it back.

In August of 2005, I received a letter from Fort Richardson. The letter described the findings of the investigation. It said that I was not responsible for the near miss on the runway. (ya think?) It further explained that the pilot and flight commander have been disciplined and no further action will be taken. It also released me of my order of silence.

To sum it up, I almost hit a helicopter that wasn't talking while it was crossing the runway in low visibility, then his rotor wash almost took me out.
 
It's a matter of what you consider to be a "near miss".

For example, on my second time soloing around the pattern, super busy day, I was instructed to land on a runway which had a plane on it sitting (not moving) at an intersection. I was sorely missing my CFI in the right seat as I nervously followed the instructions of a busy and harried controller to land, until I was about 50ft off the ground and just pushed in the throttle and went around, telling the controller on the radio that "there is another plane on the runway!"

Is that a near miss?
 
brian];1546975 said:
Sorry - I don't get the site. Pretty much what you should have on your sectional (or EFB) already...
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The website tracks NMAC and allows you to see where they occur near your area. Such as VORs, popular landmarks, practice areas, etc..
 
Also what some people would call a near miss others call normal flying.

I flew over a company aircraft by about 500' this morning while doing a practice ILS approach. He was inbound and I was outbound. I elected to stay high since he was already turning inbound and I had yet to cross the IAF. I offered, my student agreed and he agreed, so no second thoughts. Plus it was a nice view to start my day.
 
ARFlyer said:
Also what some people would call a near miss others call normal flying.

I flew over a company aircraft by about 500' this morning while doing a practice ILS approach. He was inbound and I was outbound. I elected to stay high since he was already turning inbound and I had yet to cross the IAF. I offered, my student agreed and he agreed, so no second thoughts. Plus it was a nice view to start my day.
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To me, a 'near miss' only applies when you are either unaware of, to can't see the other plane. If you know where they are and make a 'close pass', that's not a near miss in my book. 500' isn't close in my book either.;)
 
Once, I was taking off and then a swarm of birds appeared at my level. They were scattering all over and every which direction. I "missed" most all of them. Only one of them I "nearly missed". That was the poor sucker that got "hit" when the prop splattered his 2 oz of goo all over the side...:D
 
CTLSi said:
You train to avoid...you are trained to have your head on a swivel looking OUTSIDE 80% of the time for traffic. If you are not doing that, you are endangering yourself, especially around Unicom uncontrolled.
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I have a hard time seeing traffic, even with ATC giving general directions, especially when at same altitude, that's why I always report my turns, "turning left base"
 
Very uncommon, in my experience. However, I do not consider the presence of an airplane close to mine to be a near miss...there must be horizontal or vertical convergence.

Bob Gardner
 
teejayevans said:
I have a hard time seeing traffic, even with ATC giving general directions, especially when at same altitude, that's why I always report my turns, "turning left base"
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Following the advice in Advisory Circular 90-42F, Traffic Advisory Practices at Airports Without Operating Control Towers?

Bob Gardner
 
If you want to avoid near misses, keep an eye out for the little gray lines on sectionals labeled "VR ###". There have been a few times we've had close calls with some VFR traffic on those. When we're going 500 knots over the ground, we don't have much time to react to you.
 
Jakl15 said:
If you want to avoid near misses, keep an eye out for the little gray lines on sectionals labeled "VR ###". There have been a few times we've had close calls with some VFR traffic on those. When we're going 500 knots over the ground, we don't have much time to react to you.
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Yep, I used to deal with VRs flying pipeline. I'd try to stay below y'all's hard deck, but I think sometimes y'all's altimeters malfunction.;)
 
bobmrg said:
Following the advice in Advisory Circular 90-42F, Traffic Advisory Practices at Airports Without Operating Control Towers?

Bob Gardner
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I guess not since it recommends reporting on downwind, base, final.
So if I report on downwind I can be anywhere on a 3 mile stretch of sky, if I report turning downwind, then that narrows it down to 1 small section of sky. I think my way is better.
 
During flight training, I had a habit of looking off to the right before making my left pattern turns (kind of like looking left at intersections because that's where traffic is going to come from). I thought it was silly until I looked right as I turned left and found a plane under 100 feet away on a collision course - I steepened the turn to something ridiculous and did a clearing turn. A no-radio guy who didn't see me on the turn and I didn't see him up-sun.

My first flight "down the hill" (SoCal, from the desert over near Cajon Pass) it got busy immediately and between the controller not stopping for more than a second or two between transmissions I heard "44L make an immediate right turn to avoid traffic Gulfstream V" We were heading towards each other head on at altitude and it wasn't as scary as it was neat watching that G5 pop out of the sky in front of us as he turned as well. Goes to show that they can sneak up on you.
 
I went nose to nose with a helio courier last week - close enough I could tell his sunglasses were gold framed.
 
pretty common, on alert areas and on the vicinity of vors that are frequently used for flight training purposes. also, near flight schools that train chinese piltos from zero to boeing.
 
Henning said:
Yep, I used to deal with VRs flying pipeline. I'd try to stay below y'all's hard deck, but I think sometimes y'all's altimeters malfunction.;)
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The RALT just lags a bit. we'll hand fly it down to 500AGL most days. You must have been LOW!
 
evapilotaz said:
What is going on here. Everyone is afraid to fly anymore?

There are three threads about what if's and such.

Ease Family concerns
Engine outs
and now near misses.
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Indeed

I fly professionally, everyday, and all my near misses have not been aviation related.



People really want to survive they should worry about the big killers out there, like being fat.
 
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I can think of only one, returning from Ponca City back to Wichita...passed a Bonanza heading southbound at the same altitude, it was so close I could read the tail number...may not be as close as some of these others, but it was close enough for me!!
 
Over my career I have had two very frightening near misses, both of which should have resulted in a fatal accident. One involved an airplane which was descending towards us directly out of the sun. The other involved a VFR Bonanza in solid IMC. Evidently, the jackwad had a habit of departing with his transponder off in less than VMC and using his autopilot to climb to VMC on top. He passed so close to us that I could see the rivet lines as he crossed right to left in front of us. ATC was able to follow him and he ended up on the receiving end of the local FSDO's wrath.

Honestly, mid-airs are probably my biggest worry when it comes to flying, I feel that I've got ultimate control over pretty much everything else. I am grateful for all of the tools that we have at our disposal to help us "see and avoid". I can't help but underscore the need to use proper scan techniques, make all of the proper calls, using your landing lights during the day and the need to pay attention when you're in the pattern. The following link is a great illustration why it's so important to use proper scan techniques.

www.msf-usa.org/motion.html

Sorry about the link, it has moved and I'm not sure where it's located now.
 
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i definetly believe that see and avoid can only go so far. traffic 12 oclock 4 miles, looking, some time goes by and then traffic no factor. you never saw the bugsmasher or the space era bo. even with atc help is somewhat hard to spot traffic. so in order to minimize the near misses it is imperative to have some sort of traffic information onboard amd use it along with your eyeballs.
 
I relayed the following in a recent "haze and visibility" thread:

timwinters said:
I was once overtaken by a baron on a cross county. I was on FF and he was IFR. He passed 500' directly under me, same heading. I decided to test my eyes (I have 20/20 vision) and determine how long I could see an airplane. It was a slow day on the radio and I warned center of my plan. They agreed to play along and when I could no longer see the baron, I called center and asked the distance...


...three miles. Admittedly, the "visual target" presented by a plane flying directly away from you at the same altitude is smallest possible. But, still, I knew where it was!

When ATC calls traffic at ten miles I just laugh to myself but, of course, respond with "looking". But don't waste my time...well unless I'm in the Akron area and it's the blimp.
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Unfortunately, my airport has to share with a skydiving operation, with the pilot quite casual about his communications. He drives the CFI's crazy, because he announces the taxi, and that's it, not much else, including when he drops them out, or where....... Hes operating just inside the legal requirements, so they can't report him. It's a bit unnerving to fly as a student pilot when folks are dropping out of the sky around you. Two weeks ago, I was working on solo touch and go's and had to drop out of pattern to avoid colliding with a skydiver, twice. It's definitely made me an alert student.
 
If I was the owner of the skydiving operation, I would have a talk with that pilot. That's a accident (and lawsuit) just waiting to happen.
 
Indeed, Tom, it's just a matter of time when someone does sue them. It's a one man operation, and the staff at the FBO tried every tactic to work with him. From what they tell me, he is cocky, and will not cooperate with any of their suggestions. They continue to report his behavior, and has been under investigation before, but nothing to shut him down. Even last year's collision with one of our small planes and a misplaced skydiver was apparently not his fault, since the pilot is responsible for watching the skydivers. Never mind the fact that the man fell on the plane's back end, out of view. The FAA concluded that the skydiver has less control than the pilot involved in the collision , therefore should not be faulted. Maybe so, but the fault should lie on the skydiving pilot. If he would just report the timing and location of when they drop, it would have alerted the air traffic. I am a humble student pilot, what do I know, but I can't fathom why there are not more required protocol involving that kind of dangerous activity.
 
Near miss with me was a glider with a broken radio and a sky diver at the same time.

I was on short final, getting ready to round out and I had noticed some garbled radio traffic. Sounded like a fax machine. Finally someone came on the radio and told me that the glider was touching down on an intersecting runway. This kinda stuff was (allegedly) common behavior with them. Either not using the radio or, making jacked up calls, or having faulty equipment.

At the same time, sky divers were coming down almost on the runway, so when I gave full power for the go around, I ended up sandwiched between a glider below me and a skydiver above me.

I'm a student pilot so I talked to my CFI at the time and the FBO owner. I was worried I was somehow in the wrong in that situation. I wasnt.
 
Have had one "rivet counter". Both aircraft VFR, converging on the same airport at the same altitude from slightly different directions. I was slightly behind but 20 knots faster.

Birds on the other hand... More of those getting too close than I can count on all fingers and toes.
 
Jakl15 said:
If you want to avoid near misses, keep an eye out for the little gray lines on sectionals labeled "VR ###". There have been a few times we've had close calls with some VFR traffic on those. When we're going 500 knots over the ground, we don't have much time to react to you.
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Watch out for those IR routes too. I spent a lot of hours VFR and IFR in those routes at 500ft and 540KGS.
 
Ohio Flygirl said:
Unfortunately, my airport has to share with a skydiving operation, with the pilot quite casual about his communications. He drives the CFI's crazy, because he announces the taxi, and that's it, not much else, including when he drops them out, or where....... Hes operating just inside the legal requirements, so they can't report him. It's a bit unnerving to fly as a student pilot when folks are dropping out of the sky around you. Two weeks ago, I was working on solo touch and go's and had to drop out of pattern to avoid colliding with a skydiver, twice. It's definitely made me an alert student.
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Welcome, he does announce, listen in on the controlling ATC frequency for where you are, that is where he announces.
 
Henning said:
Welcome, he does announce, listen in on the controlling ATC frequency for where you are, that is where he announces.
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What Henning says, that said, when I was flying jumpers I would announce to ATC then quickly flop to CTAF and announce there, and then flop back. Only one com radio. I never had time to listen to CTAF after I transmitted but I did my best.
 
Another one of the benefits of flight following is they steer you around the meat bombs.
 
jesse said:
What Henning says, that said, when I was flying jumpers I would announce to ATC then quickly flop to CTAF and announce there, and then flop back. Only one com radio. I never had time to listen to CTAF after I transmitted but I did my best.
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I wish all jump pilots were like that. I was under the hood on Saturday on a full VOR approach and this jump pilot whose voice i recognized due to his accent (great I thought here comes trouble) announced he was taking off to Milwaukee approach from a non towered airport close to the towered airport where I was practicing. Approach advised him of me on the VOR approach. Next thing I know ATC tells us to look for traffic and my garmin a start screaming "traffic". My CFII says looking then says "my airplane" grabs control and makes an aggressive manouver because the cowboy was flying apparently right towards us. Naturally I looked up after my CFII had control and I could almost see the tail number of this twin otter. We heard the jump pilot then say looking for traffic to Milwaukee approach while his system was screaming "traffic" in the background.
 
asgcpa said:
I wish all jump pilots were like that. I was under the hood on Saturday on a full VOR approach and this jump pilot whose voice i recognized due to his accent (great I thought here comes trouble) announced he was taking off to Milwaukee approach from a non towered airport close to the towered airport where I was practicing. Approach advised him of me on the VOR approach. Next thing I know ATC tells us to look for traffic and my garmin a start screaming "traffic". My CFII says looking then says "my airplane" grabs control and makes an aggressive manouver because the cowboy was flying apparently right towards us. Naturally I looked up after my CFII had control and I could almost see the tail number of this twin otter. We heard the jump pilot then say looking for traffic to Milwaukee approach while his system was screaming "traffic" in the background.
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All the large turbine outfits will make calls on ctaf and will be talking to ATC, most have a stack of two radios and can monitor both.

I'm not sure I'd call the guy a cowboy, if he's flying a twotter he's probably got a good amount of experience and is also probably flying 60-100hrs a month. Time is money on that business.

Keep in mind this type of thing is going to happen when you're flying in the vicinity of a DZ, especially a large turbine DZ.

Did you announce your position to the jump plane?

On a side note, a large DZ will bring in more money and people to the field, provide more jobs and burn more fuel than most any CFI.
 
James331 said:
All the large turbine outfits will make calls on ctaf and will be talking to ATC, most have a stack of two radios and can monitor both.

I'm not sure I'd call the guy a cowboy, if he's flying a twotter he's probably got a good amount of experience and is also probably flying 60-100hrs a month. Time is money on that business.

Keep in mind this type of thing is going to happen when you're flying in the vicinity of a DZ, especially a large turbine DZ.

Did you announce your position to the jump plane?

On a side note, a large DZ will bring in more money and people to the field, provide more jobs and burn more fuel than most any CFI.
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We were flying into a towered airport, on the published segment of an approach, talking to Milwaukee approach on an IFR flight plan. The approaches are published. He should have known the radial especially since approach told him what was going on. Experience doesn't mean you forget common sense. Why would we have to announce our position under those circumstances? We were talking to approach with an IFR squawk code, and were cleared for the approach.
 
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