Hover Training

christianfro

christianfro

Filing Flight Plan
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ChristianFro
1st post. New Member. I base out of a Class D airfield. If the field is IFR the tower won't let me do hover work on the airfield. Can someone point me to the reference that this falls under?
 
I really have no idea, but my thought would be that they can't issue any type of flight clearance other than an IFR clearance if the field is IFR.
 
Have you requested a SVFR clearance? My understanding is that you have to specifically ask for it before they can approve it. Have you visited the tower to talk to the controllers and see why they won’t approve it?
 
Wheels said:
Have you requested a SVFR clearance? My understanding is that you have to specifically ask for it before they can approve it. Have you visited the tower to talk to the controllers and see why they won’t approve it?
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This is true. I had a tower once say "well, there's ways I can give you a clearance, but you have to ask me, I can't tell you what to ask for". lol
 
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§ 91.155 Basic VFR weather minimums.​

(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section and § 91.157, no person may operate an aircraft under VFR when the flight visibility is less, or at a distance from clouds that is less, than that prescribed for the corresponding altitude and class of airspace in the following table:
…
Class D 3 statute miles 500 feet below. 1,000 feet above. 2,000 feet horizontal
 
MauleSkinner said:

§ 91.155 Basic VFR weather minimums.​

(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section and § 91.157, no person may operate an aircraft under VFR when the flight visibility is less, or at a distance from clouds that is less, than that prescribed for the corresponding altitude and class of airspace in the following table:
…
Class D 3 statute miles 500 feet below. 1,000 feet above. 2,000 feet horizontal
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Thank you for the reference. I read this as long as I have a ceiling of 500' or greater. I should be allowed to conduct hover training on the airfield. Is this how you interpret that?
 
christianfro said:
Thank you for the reference. I read this as long as I have a ceiling of 500' or greater. I should be allowed to conduct hover training on the airfield. Is this how you interpret that?
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I forgot to include:
(c) Except as provided in § 91.157, no person may operate an aircraft beneath the ceiling under VFR within the lateral boundaries of controlled airspace designated to the surface for an airport when the ceiling is less than 1,000 feet.
 
christianfro said:
Thank you for the reference. I read this as long as I have a ceiling of 500' or greater. I should be allowed to conduct hover training on the airfield. Is this how you interpret that?
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I see it as 1/2 mile and clear of clouds for helicopters. I don’t see where a tower would have a problem with hover training as long as it is in a fairly remote area on the airport.

Also, a fixed wing airplane is allowed to taxi when weather is below VFR minimums. Taxiing a helicopter from point a to point b on an airport would be the same as fixed wing, no?

Also, in a non movement area you can taxi your airplane to your hearts content without talking to anyone. Would it not be the same for a helicopter just hovering?
 
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Greg Bockelman said:
Also, in a non movement area you can taxi your airplane to your hearts content without talking to anyone. Would it not be the same for a helicopter just hovering?
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As long as you don't blow over an airplane, or send loose rocks through somebody's window.
 
MauleSkinner said:
I forgot to include:
(c) Except as provided in § 91.157, no person may operate an aircraft beneath the ceiling under VFR within the lateral boundaries of controlled airspace designated to the surface for an airport when the ceiling is less than 1,000 feet.
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And there it is...damn. Well, thank you for the reference.
 
christianfro said:
If the field is IFR the tower won't let me do hover work on the airfield. Can someone point me to the reference that this falls under?
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It depends on the airport. You'll find helicopter ops tend to fall under local airport rules vs at the FAR level especially if its a Part 139 certified airport. Request the reason in writing if you want more details but you'll find the airport usually rules in the end.
 
MauleSkinner said:
that looks like Class G to me, not Class D.
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Ok, I see that. But I don’t see how that applies to hovering practice or hover taxiing since there are no visibility requirements for taxiing.
 
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Greg Bockelman said:
Ok, I see that. But I don’t see how that applies to hovering practice or hovering taxiing since there are no visibility requirements for taxiing.
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A helicopter is in "flight" during a hover. If it has wheels, and is rolling along the ground, then it is considered a ground taxi, not a hover taxi.
 
Salty said:
But he's asking for "hover work", not to relocate. Might be a communications gap.
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Well in order to hover taxi, you actually have to bring the aircraft up to a hover. Are you saying that CC letter allows hover taxing, even air taxing as a ground operation but bringing the aircraft to a stationary hover would not be considered a ground operation?
 
Velocity173 said:
Well in order to hover taxi, you actually have to bring the aircraft up to a hover. Are you saying that CC letter allows hover taxing, even air taxing as a ground operation but bringing the aircraft to a stationary hover would not be considered a ground operation?
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I'm saying, if I'm in the tower and you ask for "hover work" I might think you are doing more than taxiing.
 
Salty said:
I'm saying, if I'm in the tower and you ask for "hover work" I might think you are doing more than taxiing.
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A hover taxi is “hover work.” He’s not entering the pattern or departing the field for the purposes of “operate” under 91.155.

It’s pretty simple. If the OP is in a non movement area (ramp) they can hover all they want without calling tower. If they want to hover to a movement area, they’ll have to call ground for permission. Both operations are ground movements and require no wx mins.
 
Velocity173 said:
A hover taxi is “hover work.” He’s not entering the pattern or departing the field for the purposes of “operate” under 91.155.

It’s pretty simple. If the OP is in a non movement area (ramp) they can hover all they want without calling tower. If they want to hover to a movement area, they’ll have to call ground for permission. Both operations are ground movements and require no wx mins.
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So I'm sure the tower is smarter than I am, but if you asked the average person to do "hover work" I think they'd assume you could be doing more repositioning on the ramp.
From my vantage, I would also not know that "hover work" wouldn't mean 1000 feet in the air. You can hover at heights beyond ground effect, can you not? I'm assuming you need clearance to hover at 1000 on the ramp.

Again, my point was just that there might be a misunderstanding of what is being asked. It's just a guess.
 
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Salty said:
So I'm sure the tower is smarter than I am, but if you asked the average person to do "hover work" I think they'd assume you could be doing more repositioning on the ramp.
From my vantage, I would also not know that "hover work" wouldn't mean 1000 feet in the air. You can hover at heights beyond ground effect, can you not? I'm assuming you need clearance to hover at 1000 on the ramp.

Again, my point was just that there might be a misunderstanding of what is being asked. It's just a guess.
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Well the only op in the CC letter that addresses anything OGE is air taxi. So I’d assume this hover work the OP wants would be IGE. Although I would say it’s kinda strange to allow someone to zip around the airfield at whatever altitude (generally less than 100 ft) and airspeed (greater than 20 kts) but not allow them to do a 100 ft OGE hover. Hover work could also be 3 ft autos. It would make no sense to allow air taxi as a ground op that doesn’t require wx mins but yet a 3 ft auto is a no go.

I think this is a tower that looks at anytime a helicopter lifting off the ground as being a flight operation that requires the VFR mins as laid out in 91.155.
 
Velocity173 said:
Well the only op in the CC letter that addresses anything OGE is air taxi. So I’d assume this hover work the OP wants would be IGE. Although I would say it’s kinda strange to allow someone to zip around the airfield at whatever altitude (generally less than 100 ft) and airspeed (greater than 20 kts) but not allow them to do a 100 ft OGE hover. Hover work could also be 3 ft autos. It would make no sense to allow air taxi as a ground op that doesn’t require wx mins but yet a 3 ft auto is a no go.

I think this is a tower that looks at anytime a helicopter lifting off the ground as being a flight operation that requires the VFR mins as laid out in 91.155.
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Well, given your experience with both ATC and helicopters, you are certainly the expert here. But, I don't think all ATC have anything close to your experience, so I'm not sure you're being realistic in what the guy in the tower thinks "hover work" means, but maybe I'm wrong. It was just a thought.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Ok, I see that. But I don’t see how that applies to hovering practice or hover taxiing since there are no visibility requirements for taxiing.
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I’m merely quoting the regs, not making any statements about what actually constitutes “operat[ing]“ in the context of helicopters. clearly the operational issue is not as clear as we’d like it to be, though, and I’m less clear than most on the subject. ;)
 
So this whole discussion boils down to this: We don’t have enough information.

It took me a minute to figure out what IGE and OGE meant. To me, hover practice, especially when weather is below VFR minimums, means in ground effect.

Bottom line when dealing with ATC is that if in doubt, ask. Just asking a simple questions can clear up a lot of confusion.
 
So just tell them you want to taxi all over. Let him tell you which way to go.
 
I think it all boils down to whether "lateral boundaries of controlled airspace designated to the surface for an airport" applies to non-movement areas on a Class D airport.

There are all kinds of tricks that can be used by helicopters to get in some hover time while it's IFR; some of them are jackassery, but all are legal. BTDT.
 
Everywhere I’ve been stationed, hover work was considered a ground op. There might be a few restrictions but you didn’t need 1000 & 3 in the class D.

IMG_8526.jpeg
 
I would request clearance to taxi, NOT fly. Hovering is off the ground, but can be a ground operation. :D

Special VFR are the magic words. Also, before flying, call the tower and discuss it with them. What you would like to do and where.
 
@Velocity173 Man the SOP pic you posted sure looks like an old SOP from KSXS. My current stomping grounds!! And that's still what's allowed with the current SOP. Of course, despite being a towered heliport, KSXS is class G airspace, not D. ;)
 
Pinecone said:
I would request clearance to taxi, NOT fly. Hovering is off the ground, but can be a ground operation. :D

Special VFR are the magic words. Also, before flying, call the tower and discuss it with them. What you would like to do and where.
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The problem with requesting SVFR for this hover work is that if it's granted, the tower can't allow other operations (like an IFR approach) while you're doing this SVFR hovering.

And it's unnecessary. The Chief Counsel letter is pretty clear that hovering is considered a ground operation for weather purposes, just like an airplane taxiing. And if it's in a non-movement area, no ATC communication need take place.
 
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