Horizon Jumpseater goes crazy

TCABM said:
If it can become self aware, can it also become mentally ill?
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I think that's pretty much a given. If AI were to actually become self aware - or when an AI becomes self aware - would that not be because of some major miscalculation or mistake on the part of the people who created it? And if that's true, do you think that's the only gross mistake that has been made?

I think AI is going to do some incredibly stupid and destructive things, just like its creators have been doing for tens of thousands of years, but it will do those things much faster and, if we're not really careful (and we absolutely are not), quite possibly on a much larger scale.
 
There's already at least one movie about what happens when AI happens: The Forbin Project. It seemed pretty realistic to me, in that whenever people develop a new technology we come pretty close to destroying ourselves with it.

As far as solving the problem of a nut flying the plane, AI or human, the answer isn't new. A simple solution to a process integrity problem is to have 3 of them. With two, you don't know which one is right. With 3, you vote it, and assume that the one oddball is wrong. Seems like this happened in this jump seat problem, similar to FedEx, and it was voting by brute strength that won. So if we put a computer in, it should only get one vote, and we'd need to make sure it takes both pilots to change or disable that computer.

That's the right way to do it, but people are cheap and not smart, so AI on the cockpit will probably be done with one pilot and AI. So we'll have to guess which one to let override the other. And we'll probably get it wrong. And we probably won't fix it until 2 large scale accidents that were caused by the mistake. Just basing that on my view of the historical evidence that it usually takes at least 2 crashes to fix a design problem with an airliner.
 
midwestpa24 said:
AI is logical. Humans are illogical.

Some situations call for being illogical. Would AI have considered the Hudson River as a viable runway with a dual engine failure at 3,000 feet over Manhattan?
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Naw, but it would have made the "impossible turn" immediately, landed on a runway, and it would have been three lines in the paper, maybe.
 
Warmi said:
At this point AI is just a very advanced search, correlation and data interpolation engine. This is not actual intelligence in the sense that it can come up with something unique and brilliant - thats why it needs terabytes of training data - still , very useful for task that are mostly memory and correlation related ( which is 99% of what we do on daily basis)
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Correct. We worked on an AI system in the mid 1990s for a very large international electrical company. It coordinated the output of four platforms to get its results. It couldn't "make up its own rules" or anything like that. Still can't, today. When that happens, we'll be justified in being scared.
 
LeePilot82 said:
Every jet I’ve been typed on pretty much works the same way. Could be something out there that when it’s done it’s done , but I haven’t seen it in any transport airplanes I’ve flown in 8 separate type ratings.
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It’s possible that some of the older stuff with teleflex cables couldn’t “guarantee” the valves would be closed, so maintenance would have to verify and/or reset valves.
 

‘Magic Mushrooms Are Turning American Pilots Into Psychedelic Kamikazes’: Psychonauts Are ****ed the Alaska Airlines Pilot Has Tarnished Their Good Name

"I pulled both emergency shut-off handles because I thought I was dreaming and I just wanna wake up,” he reportedly said during his mile-high meltdown.

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https://www.ebaumsworld.com/article...pilot-has-tarnished-their-good-name/87465472/
 
Alaska Airlines' media team must be having a tough time right now.
 
mandm said:
The human brain is complex, and it’s easy to say you shouldn’t have these thoughts (aka a mental illness), I think we all experience similar thoughts and ways of thinking, but our upbringing, love received and values is what makes our actions in real life. Aka we can tell the difference from movies and real life.

I don’t think us saying we are better for this and that, helps those who were raised with less, and with social media that isn’t helping either.

There is too much stigma on mental illness, I’m sure we all experience mental health issues at some point in our life.

And I’m not justifying anyones actions, I just want to see everyone live life to their fullest.
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I agree with you 100% and they should live their lives to the fullest not flying as commercial pilots.

I’m a huge advocate for reform with the aeromedical system but allowing someone that is dealing with depression or mental illness should always be disqualifying.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
I agree with you 100% and they should live their lives to the fullest not flying as commercial pilots.

I’m a huge advocate for reform with the aeromedical system but allowing someone that is dealing with depression or mental illness should always be disqualifying.
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"Keep on smiling, pilots. CAMI is watching."

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Kenny Phillips said:
Correct. We worked on an AI system in the mid 1990s for a very large international electrical company. It coordinated the output of four platforms to get its results. It couldn't "make up its own rules" or anything like that. Still can't, today. When that happens, we'll be justified in being scared.
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In the mid 1990s, "artificial intelligence" was a pipe dream and the systems they referred to as "ai" were pretty much exactly what you and @Warmi said. And honestly, that was my own impression until fairly recently. When even the developers and designers freely admit that they don't really fully know how a system works or why it does what it does, and it's developing new behaviors on its own, I think we may have hit the point where we do need to worry.

Unfortunately, the genie is well on its way out of the bottle. Even if AI doesn't gain sentience and decide for itself what it wants to do, the tools are and will increasingly be used to the detriment of everyone. It doesn't matter what rules or regulations we impose at this point. Profit motives, unregulated countries, and intentional bad actors will inflict untold damage with AI technology much as those factors have done so with the Internet in general. In the mid '90s we got poorly typed scam letters from Nigerian prices in the mail; it was good for a laugh and every once in a while some fool lost a few grand. Now it's a constant onslaught of very well crafted, very believable scams delivered via email, web, phone, text, social media, and video that suck in even savvy, careful, and experienced people. It's only going to get worse. Much worse.
 
One of his friends posted this on Facebook. I thought it was worth pasting here...

"""
Joe Emerson is a friend and a mentor to me. The events that took place have been gutting, and shocking to everyone that knows Joe, and of course troubling to his co-workers, the airline industry, and the traveling public. While I am not excusing or ignoring his actions, I want everyone to know just how special he is, and how respected he is by so many people. Joe has been in aviation for a long time and has been vital to countless departments at Horizon, Virgin America, and eventually Alaska Airlines. Joe is a husband, a father, a coach, a friend, one helluva pilot, an extremely knowledgeable instructor, and so much more.

The aviation industry can be a tough road to navigate sometimes. There is no room for mistakes as a Commercial Airline Pilot. The stress and pressures both imposed externally, and internally that we put on ourselves, can often become overwhelming, and this is on top of all the other pressures we face in life. It isn’t easy to raise your hand and ask for help in this industry. You can’t simply be put on anti-depressants or self-medicate like most of the public can. Pilots constantly fear that a medical issue, whether it be mental or physical, will bring their FAA medical into question, or worse yet, end their career.

We are in the infancy stage of addressing mental health issues in this country. Therapy is stigmatized. We don’t look to fix the root cause of mental health problems, we simply shove feelings and issues down and ignore problems until they reach a fever pitch, and it causes people to break. Everyone has a limit, and it causes wonderful people to temporarily lose their way. Joe is a fantastic human, and it sounds like he was dealing with personal issues that came to a head. Great people can make bad mistakes. Joe is not a monster. He is a man who loves his wife and kids, his friends and family, and flying airplanes.

I urge everyone to offer some thought and compassion when thinking about this challenging and complex situation…
"""
 
rwellner98 said:
One of his friends posted this on Facebook. I thought it was worth pasting here...

"""
Joe Emerson is a friend and a mentor to me. The events that took place have been gutting, and shocking to everyone that knows Joe, and of course troubling to his co-workers, the airline industry, and the traveling public. While I am not excusing or ignoring his actions, I want everyone to know just how special he is, and how respected he is by so many people. Joe has been in aviation for a long time and has been vital to countless departments at Horizon, Virgin America, and eventually Alaska Airlines. Joe is a husband, a father, a coach, a friend, one helluva pilot, an extremely knowledgeable instructor, and so much more.

The aviation industry can be a tough road to navigate sometimes. There is no room for mistakes as a Commercial Airline Pilot. The stress and pressures both imposed externally, and internally that we put on ourselves, can often become overwhelming, and this is on top of all the other pressures we face in life. It isn’t easy to raise your hand and ask for help in this industry. You can’t simply be put on anti-depressants or self-medicate like most of the public can. Pilots constantly fear that a medical issue, whether it be mental or physical, will bring their FAA medical into question, or worse yet, end their career.

We are in the infancy stage of addressing mental health issues in this country. Therapy is stigmatized. We don’t look to fix the root cause of mental health problems, we simply shove feelings and issues down and ignore problems until they reach a fever pitch, and it causes people to break. Everyone has a limit, and it causes wonderful people to temporarily lose their way. Joe is a fantastic human, and it sounds like he was dealing with personal issues that came to a head. Great people can make bad mistakes. Joe is not a monster. He is a man who loves his wife and kids, his friends and family, and flying airplanes.

I urge everyone to offer some thought and compassion when thinking about this challenging and complex situation…
"""
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Thank you for sharing that. Clearly it's the FAA and society's fault that this aviation role model decided to put himself in the cockpit of an airliner while tripping on psychedelics. He could have "self medicated" in his hotel room, slept it off, and lied on his medical, but that's not the choice he made.
 
Yeah, but trying to take 80+ people to their deaths with you is not a nice thing to do, even if you are sick. I hope he can find another vocation that doesn't involve public safety. Some of these posts make it sound like self medication is a solution to these mental issues, that's just not true. Self medication will not help someone who is sick enough to do something like this. If anyone thinks self medicating helps, they are just fooling themselves.
 
rwellner98 said:
We are in the infancy stage of addressing mental health issues in this country. Therapy is stigmatized. We don’t look to fix the root cause of mental health problems, we simply shove feelings and issues down and ignore problems until they reach a fever pitch, and it causes people to break. Everyone has a limit, and it causes wonderful people to temporarily lose their way. Joe is a fantastic human, and it sounds like he was dealing with personal issues that came to a head. Great people can make bad mistakes. Joe is not a monster. He is a man who loves his wife and kids, his friends and family, and flying airplanes.
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Interesting context from his friend, though his full throated defense is unlikely to change many people's estimation of the guy.

And ah yes: who can forget the "mental health" angle.

The catch-all, buzzword defense phrase we use these days to describe why we feel compelled to shove random people in front of MTA trains, beat random people to death in public, shoot 18 random innocent victims -- or try and kill 80 random passengers aboard an airliner. All things we've seen blamed on "mental health" crises just this week alone.

I'd say we have a crisis of morals, not health.
 
So tired of hearing about fear in maintaining a medical. I’ve had the equivalent of either a class 1 or 2 for over 30 years. It ain’t that hard to keep a medical. And if I can no longer maintain my medical? Who cares, I go on to a non flying job.

If someone truly cares enough about flying for a living, 1) stay in shape, 2) don't abuse drugs / alcohol and 3) if you have a condition that’s grounding, apply for an SI. Not that hard.
 
Velocity173 said:
So tired of hearing about fear in maintaining a medical. I’ve had the equivalent of either a class 1 or 2 for over 30 years. It ain’t that hard to keep a medical. And if I can no longer maintain my medical? Who cares, I go on to a non flying job.

If someone truly cares enough about flying for a living, 1) stay in shape, 2) don't abuse drugs / alcohol and 3) if you have a condition that’s grounding, apply for an SI. Not that hard.
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Applying for an SI is simple, of course, but one of the big reasons that there are 60,000 pilots using Basic Med instead is because of the risks involved, which are substantial for the much of the non-revenue pilot population.

I've had an AME issued medical for nearly 50 years, a period of time that I've also never had a mid-air. ;) Both of those are highly risk-management dependent, usually with little recourse for getting it wrong . . .
 
hindsight2020 said:
Have you strolled through an airline terminal lately? Aspirational is the word of the day my friend. :biggrin:
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It’s just with all these medical threads on here. Every week there’s a new thread on DUIs or some sort of felony. Sometimes I wonder, are there any aspiring professional pilots that actually are in descent physical / mental shape and don’t have a criminal record? Unbelievable.

As far as the pilot in question, I’ve got no sympathy for him. Don’t care about how his stressors experienced as a commercial pilot. Everyone has them. No different than ATC or any other job with a high level of responsibility. You manage your work and private life. If you can’t, find another career. I’ve seen that before. But using an illegal substance and then putting people lives in danger is inexcusable in my opinion.
 
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Velocity173 said:
It’s just with all these medical threads on here. Every week there’s a new thread on DUIs or some sort of felony. Sometimes I wonder, are there any aspiring professional pilots that actually are in descent physical / mental shape and don’t have a criminal record? Unbelievable.
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Given all the medical threads lately, plus if you think about the Dear Abby columns lately, it's almost like there are some people that are trying to one up others wrt coming up with the most outlandish but realistic scenario/question.
 
Velocity173 said:
It’s just with all these medical threads on here. Every week there’s a new thread on DUIs or some sort of felony. Sometimes I wonder, are there any aspiring professional pilots that actually are in descent physical / mental shape and don’t have a criminal record? Unbelievable.

As far as the pilot in question, I’ve got no sympathy for him. Don’t care about how his stressors experienced as a commercial pilot. Everyone has them. No different than ATC or any other job with a high level of respinsibility. You manage your work and private life. If you can’t, find another career. I’ve seen that before. But using an illegal substance and then putting people lives in danger is inexcusable in my opinion.
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In fairness, transport flying is very sedentary and circadian fatiguing (it's also very carcinogenic in the non-regional/turboprop segment space), which introduces terrible eating and lifestyle dynamics inherent to layover/terminal schlepping life. The usual contrarians would immediately push back with the "pack a week's worth of fresh produce on a big-arsed Yeti, run 2 miles at 0100 after checking in at the hotel, and adult better", but most people on a population distribution are mediocre, definitionally. The fact they're pilots occupationally means nothing in that macro context.

The system requires the volume of meatbags to be there period dot, just like the whole kerfuffle about the world stopping if commuting were disallowed from these rollerbag warriors. As with everything in life, the system deals with the demographics it has, not the ones it wishes it could have.

Sure, the military can afford to be more discriminatory, and even then only to a marginal degree relative to civilian workplaces. I have it on good authority that it kicks you off the pot a hell of a lot sooner than the civilian world does, which further makes the military comparison a whole lot of apples to cantaloupes. We also crash a metric ton more by imposed/ordered risk-taking and less guardrails, exacerbating the comparison invalidity.

All that said, agreed, I'm not condoning the rank absence of any self-policing on the public safety front just because one has a hell-or-high-water desire to liv dUh dReEm and my 6 figure keyboard-tending job sux waaah.
 
The supposition in post #209 and reinforced in post #225, suggesting AI can provide guardrails to reduce risk of ill pilot taking down an aircraft full of passengers is based on the concept presented in post #242, in which a process integrity problem is solved by having odd number of decision makers, in this case three (pilot, co-pilot, and AI guardrail system), and majority rules. For example, the AI offers an unbiased solution (ie, not ill with some disease hidden from the FAA) to an unstable input from the pilot, and the co-pilot concurs with the AI, and the disaster is averted. Or, if the co-pilot feels the pilot was correct (ie, Miracle on the Hudson), then the co-pilot sides with the pilot, and pilot inputs are accepted. In another case, perhaps the co-pilot tries something strange, and the pilot and AI over-rule, keeping the aircraft safe. The concept described in #242 was implicit in posts #209 and #225, but not explicitly stated in the two posts.

In terms of the continued evolution of AI, it is heavily based on the continued increase in computational power, as the main driving force (ie, Moore's Law). AI is a computational hog, to support deep learning algorithms. Moore's Law is still valid, as computers continue to get smaller and more powerful. In terms of the various posts on AI self awareness, the concept is well recognized by the following term:

Technological Singularity as briefly described in Wikipedia. AI will continue to get more powerful, and as with any substantial advancement (ie, nuclear), it can be used for great good (such as nuclear medicine), or destructive purposes (nuclear weapons). This is reality. Should one or two more aircraft be jeopardized or brought down by unstable crew, the FAA and manufacturers will be forced to find visible solutions (and deployment of AI guardrails is the most reasonable (or perhaps a third co-co-pilot?)), in order to avert a crisis of confidence in the aviation market and address the political pressure invoked by the flying public. Tolerance of the continued intractable debate between FAA methods and pilots hiding medical challenges is likely running out of time. BTW, this is not written by AI algorithm, just a pilot that has worked on AI R&D in completely different areas of application.
 
hindsight2020 said:
In fairness, transport flying is very sedentary and circadian fatiguing (it's also very carcinogenic in the non-regional/turboprop segment space), which introduces terrible eating and lifestyle dynamics inherent to layover/terminal schlepping life. The usual contrarians would immediately push back with the "pack a week's worth of fresh produce on a big-arsed Yeti, run 2 miles at 0100 after checking in at the hotel, and adult better", but most people on a population distribution are mediocre, definitionally. The fact they're pilots occupationally means nothing in that macro context.

The system requires the volume of meatbags to be there period dot, just like the whole kerfuffle about the world stopping if commuting were disallowed from these rollerbag warriors. As with everything in life, the system deals with the demographics it has, not the ones it wishes it could have.

Sure, the military can afford to be more discriminatory, and even then only to a marginal degree relative to civilian workplaces. I have it on good authority that it kicks you off the pot a hell of a lot sooner than the civilian world does, which further makes the military comparison a whole lot of apples to cantaloupes. We also crash a metric ton more by imposed/ordered risk-taking and less guardrails, exacerbating the comparison invalidity.

All that said, agreed, I'm not condoning the rank absence of any self-policing on the public safety front just because one has a hell-or-high-water desire to liv dUh dReEm and my 6 figure keyboard-tending job sux waaah.
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what are you saying? I couldn’t follow.
 
dbahn said:
Applying for an SI is simple, of course, but one of the big reasons that there are 60,000 pilots using Basic Med instead is because of the risks involved, which are substantial for the much of the non-revenue pilot population.

I've had an AME issued medical for nearly 50 years, a period of time that I've also never had a mid-air. ;) Both of those are highly risk-management dependent, usually with little recourse for getting it wrong . . .
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There's also the issue of being grounded for however many months or years it takes for the FAA to get around to making up their minds about it.
 
ArrowFlyer86 said:
Interesting context from his friend, though his full throated defense is unlikely to change many people's estimation of the guy.

And ah yes: who can forget the "mental health" angle.

The catch-all, buzzword defense phrase we use these days to describe why we feel compelled to shove random people in front of MTA trains, beat random people to death in public, shoot 18 random innocent victims -- or try and kill 80 random passengers aboard an airliner. All things we've seen blamed on "mental health" crises just this week alone.

I'd say we have a crisis of morals, not health.
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Nope, and nope. "Morals" are purely social constructs, that we, as a society, generally (but not always) agree upon.
To say that "having high morals" will prevent someone who is mentally is from committing some act not acceptable to society is proven wrong, nearly daily.
 
Palmpilot said:
There's also the issue of being grounded for however many months or years it takes for the FAA to get around to making up their minds about it.
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I think that as long as the issue isn't one of the three Basic Med exclusions, you can operate under Basic Med while the FAA is pretending to make up their minds as they push the paper around their cubicles. But if your application ends in a denial, you're grounded even with Basic Med. If you get an SI then you can decide to comply with those conditions or just let it expire on its own. A lot of people currently on Basic Med decided that it was just not worth it to apply for a new AME issued medical, and there are a lot of medical conditions and diagnoses that apply in that situation.

I was diagnosed with prostate cancer 15 years ago, before Basic Med. That's one of those diagnoses that an airman knows or should have reason to know would make him "unable to meet the requirements" for the medical certificate at that time, which is substantially different than being able to "operate in a safe manner". So I was able to fly the Cub under Light Sport until my medical was approved. (That's only because I knew that I had prostate cancer, unlike hundreds of pilots at my age that had prostate cancer but didn't know it, many of whom avoided even being evaluated for it for fear of its medical certificate implications.) As a side note to that I was diagnosed with malignant melanoma about five years ago, which resulted in a Special Issuance, requiring among other things a head and neck MRI every year. Now on Basic Med I don't worry about seeing a dermatologist every six months for a check up, which is a good thing because I've had two local melanomas since then - an important malignancy to find and remove early before it metastasizes.
 
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I'll leave this here..
 

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dbahn said:
A lot of people currently on Basic Med decided that it was just not worth it to apply for a new AME issued medical, and there are a lot of medical conditions and diagnoses that apply in that situation.
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I have a replacement aortic valve and am on BasicMed. Maintaining a class 3 would require a battery of expensive and not medically necessary annual tests. Echo, muclear stress, CT, Holter, etc.

On BM I self certify. How do I personally self certify? I’m bicycling 120-150 miles per week and stress test myself almost every ride. Spend a half hour climbing a hill at 160bpm and you’ll pretty much know.
 
It's not really "self certifying." That term went out the window years ago (it used to apply to gliders). Now it is only required to perform a self-assessment of your condition to fly, a requirement that all pilots whether they hold medicals or not are REQUIRED to do. They just make a bigger thing of it in the "education" portion of the BasicMed regulations than they do for your pilot (let alone) medical certification.
 
flyingron said:
It's not really "self certifying." That term went out the window years ago (it used to apply to gliders). Now it is only required to perform a self-assessment of your condition to fly, a requirement that all pilots whether they hold medicals or not are REQUIRED to do. They just make a bigger thing of it in the "education" portion of the BasicMed regulations than they do for your pilot (let alone) medical certification.
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:yeahthat:

The essence of Basic Med is that when the pilot does the self-assessment, he has the health data (from the exam) and the training (from the course) to make a reasonably informed decision. The pilot makes the final call but he does so with a signed concurrence from a physician who has examined him and after having successfully passed a course.
 
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