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Greg Weber

Greg Weber

Filing Flight Plan
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May 27, 2020
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Hellfish6
I’m thinking about purchasing or building a home flight simulator. I’m not a very computer savvy guy and thought I’d ask if anyone has recommendations or experience. It’d be great to get a BATD to stay current with 66hits but mainly looking for something realistic for general proficiency. I see Gleim, Red Bird, Real Sim Gear all make a BATD package but anyone have thoughts on how to configure their own?
 
I built one for my Hangar and run X-Plane on it. X-Plane publishes minimum requirements for the computer that you need and I stuck with that. You want a motherboard designed for gaming, a top of the line video card, a sold state harddrive, and lots of ram. You can't log time and it will not suffice for IFR training but I find it to be helpful to practice procedures.
 
For it to become a BATD, the FAA has to come visit you and spend a day putting your hardware through the paces in order to certify it. The hardware exists to do this, it’s just a matter of buying it all, writing the QAG, and getting the FAA to approve it. AC-136B lays it out. https://www.faa.gov/regulations_pol...fm/go/document.information/documentID/1034348

To get started with basic controls, I recommend a Honeycomb yoke, CH Products pro pedals, and your favorite throttle. Precision flight controls are highly regarded for throttles, but they are also top of the price market. From there, it depends on what you want panel wise.
 
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As a computer guy, good luck. Prices have been screwed up for about 18 months now with no sign resuming normalcy.

Looking at X-Plane's requirements, you should be able to get away with older, used components (if you can find them). I'd recommend a 6 or 8 core CPU. Don't worry about the RAM other than the amount (X-Plane wants 16GB). Their GPU recommendations are practically worthless as everything released in the past couple years has 4 or more GB of RAM. SSDs are nice. There are two kinds (broadly), SATA and NVMe. NVMe are faster, but require motherboard support. SATA are slower, can be cheaper, and use the same interface as traditional HDDs. If you buy an SSD, either get a reasonable capacity (500GB+) or a HDD for bulk storage. Small capacity SSDs can lose performance very quickly.

I can't recommend anything as far as peripherals go as I am a computer guy and not a pilot.

And nothing I've said has any bearing on prebuilt BATDs, of course.
 
The cheapest BATD I know of is about 8k. You can (or could pre-inflation) buy all the components to build that yourself for somewhere around 4k, but you’d still have to do the legwork for certification.
 
2-Bit Speed said:
As a computer guy, good luck. Prices have been screwed up for about 18 months now with no sign resuming normalcy.

Looking at X-Plane's requirements, you should be able to get away with older, used components (if you can find them). I'd recommend a 6 or 8 core CPU. Don't worry about the RAM other than the amount (X-Plane wants 16GB). Their GPU recommendations are practically worthless as everything released in the past couple years has 4 or more GB of RAM. SSDs are nice. There are two kinds (broadly), SATA and NVMe. NVMe are faster, but require motherboard support. SATA are slower, can be cheaper, and use the same interface as traditional HDDs. If you buy an SSD, either get a reasonable capacity (500GB+) or a HDD for bulk storage. Small capacity SSDs can lose performance very quickly.

I can't recommend anything as far as peripherals go as I am a computer guy and not a pilot.

And nothing I've said has any bearing on prebuilt BATDs, of course.
Click to expand...

Interesting. I am replacing my aging (OK, aged) flight simulator setup. I don't have enough scratch to buy top of the line hardware and still pay for my flight instruction, so I'm willing to make compromises. Right now, I am running an older computer I built with hand-me-down parts. An older MSI board with the last version of intel core-duo processor, 512MB AMD 5450, 6 GB Ram (I know, no dual channel mismatched). It runs Microsoft Flight Simulator X very well, maxed out setting on everything. It's just that MSFS X has pretty weak graphics, and the detail is very old. The one airport where I am taking my flight lessons (KSEP) is not very accurate. It shows some old cross runway that hasn't been active in years. In fact, it's not even there at all any more. So, I found a refurbished HP EliteDesk 800 G1 for $301 out the door. It has the intel i7-4770, 16GB RAM, 512 GB SSD, and intel HD 4600. From what I can tell, intel has stopped support for DirectX-12 in the 4000 series display adapters. I am researching decent video cards - with reasonable pricing. I am guessing that 2 to 4 GB will work for X-Plane 11. My son has an amazing machine that can run MSFS 2020, but I don't want to tie up his machine with my stuff. I think that X-Plane 11 is a good compromise without the amazing graphics of MSFS 2020 (and X-Plane 12, I guess) and the crazy hardware needed to run it.
I see plenty of Nvidia 730 cards with 2 or 4 GB, but I can't get any definitive answer if they will run XP 11 at a decent frame rate. What should I be looking for? I will need a low-profile card mount due the "slim desktop" format of the case. Is there anything around $200 that will do the trick?

My Saitek/Logitech yoke system is basically just OK. The Saitek/Logitech rudder pedals are barely useable. The gain setting on them, their angle, the lack of feedback is just so unrealistic. I will say that the bundled throttle quadrant works very well. I wish I had saved up for a Honeycomb yoke. They are a much nicer package all around. I also wish the Thrustmaster rudder pedals weren't so very expensive.
 
Saitek yokes are next to useless. I didn’t even give mine away to a good home, I refuse to make someone hate flying that way.

If I can ever find time to finish it, I have a CadetThrottle printed and partially assembled. I soldered the linear pots and arduino in two weeks, but it will be another two weeks before I can put it together.
 
@Dry Creek
The primary thing to look for will be getting a card using the right memory type. The difference between a GT1030 using DDR4 and one using GDDR5 is around 70% or more. I would love to recommend an AMD card, but their offerings don't seem to work with HP, Dell, Acer, etc.

For under $200, I was able to find the same card on Newegg and Amazon.
https://www.newegg.com/gigabyte-geforce-gt-1030-gv-n1030d5-2gl/p/N82E16814125972
https://www.amazon.com/GIGABYTE-GeF...ile+2GB,+GV-N1030D5-2GL&qid=1646225328&sr=8-3

I was also able to find a GTX 1050ti (which performs much better than a 1030) in a low profile card. Unfortunately, it's over $300.
https://www.newegg.com/gigabyte-geforce-gtx-1050-ti-gv-n105toc-4gl/p/N82E16814125952

If you want, I can provide benchmarks comparing the 1030 and 1050ti.
 
bflynn said:
Saitek yokes are next to useless. I didn’t even give mine away to a good home, I refuse to make someone hate flying that way.

If I can ever find time to finish it, I have a CadetThrottle printed and partially assembled. I soldered the linear pots and arduino in two weeks, but it will be another two weeks before I can put it together.
Click to expand...

is there a specific issue about that yoke? I guess I expected sim experience to be far from accurate with a $60 program on a home computer vs the redbird at the airport. So I’ve been pleasantly surprised
 
A specific issue? No, several

1) It only goes 45 degrees each way. The roll is not constant, it gets more sensitive.
2) it has a very short in/out movement, so pitch is either limited or very sensitive
3) the movement has a lot of noise in it and seems to wander. It's practically impossible to hold a constant angle.
4) doesn't really feel like a yoke.
 
bflynn said:
A specific issue? No, several

1) It only goes 45 degrees each way. The roll is not constant, it gets more sensitive.
2) it has a very short in/out movement, so pitch is either limited or very sensitive
3) the movement has a lot of noise in it and seems to wander. It's practically impossible to hold a constant angle.
4) doesn't really feel like a yoke.
Click to expand...
He's right. The 90 degree versus 180 degree sweep of Saitek/Logitech compared to the Honeycomb Alpha makes a huge difference. The "gain", or speed of input naturally has to be higher on the Saitek due to the shorter arc - so input is doubled. Makes fine control on a crosswind landing quite challenging. The Saitek also has centering springs, so it pulls back to center from both axes. One thing that does promote is trimming the pull out. Those springs are quite stiff. Mine is quiet and doesn't wander. The yoke feel is also quite different. Compared to the C-172 trainer I've been in (and nothing else to compare) it feels huge. It is thicker in the grip area and wider, or so it seems.

Don't get me started on those rudder pedals.....
 
2-Bit Speed said:
@Dry Creek
The primary thing to look for will be getting a card using the right memory type. The difference between a GT1030 using DDR4 and one using GDDR5 is around 70% or more. I would love to recommend an AMD card, but their offerings don't seem to work with HP, Dell, Acer, etc.

For under $200, I was able to find the same card on Newegg and Amazon.
https://www.newegg.com/gigabyte-geforce-gt-1030-gv-n1030d5-2gl/p/N82E16814125972
https://www.amazon.com/GIGABYTE-GeForce-GV-N1030D5-2GL-Computer-Graphics/dp/B071DY2VJR/ref=sr_1_3?keywords=GIGABYTE+GeForce+GT+1030+Low+Profile+2GB,+GV-N1030D5-2GL&qid=1646225328&sr=8-3

I was also able to find a GTX 1050ti (which performs much better than a 1030) in a low profile card. Unfortunately, it's over $300.
https://www.newegg.com/gigabyte-geforce-gtx-1050-ti-gv-n105toc-4gl/p/N82E16814125952

If you want, I can provide benchmarks comparing the 1030 and 1050ti.
Click to expand...

I am going to wait until my new machine gets here on Friday, and then download the trial version of X-Plane 11 and see where I am starting from. A coworker gave me two low-profile cards today, but I don't know how they will work in the new system. Neither of them are true gaming cards, but they seem to have better benchmarks than the installed intel HD 4600. They are:
MSI Radeon R5 230 2GD5H LP, which I would probably try first since it has 2 GB and benchmarked slightly better than the other card.
HIS Silence Radeon HD 5570, 1GB ddr3 PCIe (128 bit 667 MHz, 1 GB), model H557HR1G

I'm having to reach around that monstrous yoke to type this. I keep a wireless keyboard sitting on top of it for the stuff I don't have programmed into the buttons. I am in the middle of cloning the HDD on our home computer. I ordered a 1TB PNY SSD as an upgrade so the wife will stop complaining about how slow it has gotten. Only a bazillion hours left for the clone. Using a Sabrent dock with Acronis for Sabrent, hooked to USB 3.0. I have already maxed that PC out to 16GB Ram. It's an i3-7100T with intel HD 630 onboard graphics.
 
Dry Creek said:
They are:
MSI Radeon R5 230 2GD5H LP, which I would probably try first since it has 2 GB and benchmarked slightly better than the other card.
HIS Silence Radeon HD 5570, 1GB ddr3 PCIe (128 bit 667 MHz, 1 GB), model H557HR1G
Click to expand...

The R5 has GDDR5, the 5570 has DDR3 (if I'm reading that right). The difference is that GDDR is much higher bandwidth and better for graphics applications (G standing for Graphics).
 
I didn't know any yokes had self centering. Cool to know there are some. I don't have a fancy sim, but fly with a logitech joystick. To me, that's more realistic than a control that stays where you leave it. I don't fine much difference between flying with a stick or yoke, just something you don't notice.
 
I don't have a BATD, but I do run X-Plane and built a rig specifically designed to run it on VR.

Hardware:
Motherboard - Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Master
CPY - i9-9900k overclocked to 5.0GHz Hyper-threading turned off. (XPlane can only use but one thread. Multi-threading is useless for XP)
CoolerMaster 240mm water-cooler
GPU - ASUS GeForce GTX 1080 TI 11GB
RAM - 32 GB DDR4-3200 RAM
Storage - 1TB SSD (runs Windows 10, X-Plane and some other add-ons). 5 TB external HDD for ortho-photo scenery
VR - Oculus Quest 2 with link cable
Hardware - Honeycomb Alpha Yoke. Thrustmaster TM16000 stick (for aircraft that require such an item) and TM160000 throttle.

This setup lets me run any aircraft in smooth virtual reality usually locked in at 45FPS, sometimes 30FPS. VR + physical yoke/TQ is insanely immersive. Load up in an 738 at a gate at DCA... it will blow your mind.

The plan is to upgrade the GPU in the next year or whenever X-Plane 12 comes out. That will become my bottleneck with the new version. I am eyeing a 3080ti, but the price is a bit outrageous right now.

Some tips for building a rig for X-Plane - In terms of CPU, clock speed rules. Cores doesn't mean jack s. Get the fastest processor you can find and overclock as much as your cooling will allow. For GPUs - X-Plane will eat up VRAM like crazy. I got the 1080ti because at the time it was the only card with 11GB VRAM. It still is a monster card and is only really being topped by the 12GB of the 30 series. Get the best GPU you can afford with the most VRAM. And like someone above said - please get a good yoke. A crappy yoke will ruin your experience like nothing else. The Honeycomb is a good yoke for the money.

Good luck and have fun.
 
Just curious - is X-Plane 11 an improvement over FSX? I am seriously thinking about upgrading to X-Plane (11) if so. Less hardware-intensive as MSFS 2020.
 
FSX and Xplane11 are pretty similar, one is better at some things while the other is better at other things. From a training perspective, I liked xplane11 better. I'm really looking forward to xplane12 coming out, hopefully this year. Also intend on getting mine certified and hopefully filling in the lower end of the market for BATDs.
 
FWIW...I'm running XP11 on my superbudget build.

Old Dell Optiplex (small form factor) I got for free from my school during a tech upgrade, 2012-ish vintage
Core i7 CPU, 3.2GHz i think? i forget the model ID, no overclockability though
32GB RAM
1TB SSD
Nvidia 1050Ti, which is the most robust gfx card I could fit into the SFF case and run on the pathetic 240w power supply.

Runs most aircraft just fine in 1080p. Framerate gets a little laggy in intricate cockpits like the 747, etc. but still plenty useable for procedural practice or just screwing around.
Tried to run 4k once though, and it went about as horribly as expected lol.

Dry Creek said:
Just curious - is X-Plane 11 an improvement over FSX? I am seriously thinking about upgrading to X-Plane (11) if so. Less hardware-intensive as MSFS 2020.
Click to expand...
I ran both to see what I like better, XP11 is definitely an improvement over FSX imo.
 
Sierra_Hotel said:
FSX and Xplane11 are pretty similar, one is better at some things while the other is better at other things. From a training perspective, I liked xplane11 better. I'm really looking forward to xplane12 coming out, hopefully this year. Also intend on getting mine certified and hopefully filling in the lower end of the market for BATDs.
Click to expand...
My main complaint with FSX is the graphics. I realize that they were probably state of the art in 2000, but much has changed since then. Are the graphics in XP-11 better? If so, are you able to articulate how much better?
 
drummer4468 said:
FWIW...I'm running XP11 on my superbudget build.

Old Dell Optiplex (small form factor) I got for free from my school during a tech upgrade, 2012-ish vintage
Core i7 CPU, 3.2GHz i think? i forget the model ID, no overclockability though
32GB RAM
1TB SSD
Nvidia 1050Ti, which is the most robust gfx card I could fit into the SFF case and run on the pathetic 240w power supply.

Runs most aircraft just fine in 1080p. Framerate gets a little laggy in intricate cockpits like the 747, etc. but still plenty useable for procedural practice or just screwing around.
Tried to run 4k once though, and it went about as horribly as expected lol.


I ran both to see what I like better, XP11 is definitely an improvement over FSX imo.
Click to expand...
Ahh, thanks. What areas would you say that XP-11 excels in, when compared to FSX?
 
Dry Creek said:
Ahh, thanks. What areas would you say that XP-11 excels in, when compared to FSX?
Click to expand...

I liked the overall feel of XP11 better, especially in the graphics and physics. Things just flow smoother and more realistically, in and out of the cockpit; it feels more like a simulator and less like an arcade game. Think "Gran Turismo" vs "Need for Speed"

The graphics, while not mindblowing, are significantly more detailed and pleasant to look at compared to FSX. All the little details in the rendering and interaction make a big difference. The weather/clouds, the way the surfaces and switches interact with light and shadows, etc. I feel like it's a lot more configurable, too. Though i have to admit I didn't spent as much time digging into FSX.
 
drummer4468 said:
I liked the overall feel of XP11 better, especially in the graphics and physics. Things just flow smoother and more realistically, in and out of the cockpit; it feels more like a simulator and less like an arcade game. Think "Gran Turismo" vs "Need for Speed"

The graphics, while not mindblowing, are significantly more detailed and pleasant to look at compared to FSX. All the little details in the rendering and interaction make a big difference. The weather/clouds, the way the surfaces and switches interact with light and shadows, etc. I feel like it's a lot more configurable, too. Though i have to admit I didn't spent as much time digging into FSX.
Click to expand...
Thank you. I am not familiar with either of those two games you used as a reference though. I am not a gamer, but wanted a flight simulator as I'm a student pilot. A very low hour student pilot, battling weather and a busy schedule, as well as instructor plane downtime.
Sounds like I need to build/buy a system capable of running X-Plane 11.
 
I don't know where you are on your build, as I'm late to this thread. Even with a SSD drive, you can benefit from caching your disk accesses. I have PrimoCache, and it allows both Level 1 (L1, memory cache) and Level 2 (L2, fast non-volatile cache).

I have a 2TB SSD main drive, and a 1TB NVMem L2 cache drive, plus about 40 GB L1 cache (of 64 GB total RAM). When you get a page fault, PrimoCache checks L1, which loads faster than NVMem and SSD. If it's not in L1, it checks L2, which is faster than SSD. I sized L2 to be as large as possible so PrimoCache isn't flushing L2 contents any more often than necessary.

I found that after a while I'm mostly running out of L2 cache, which is at least 10 times faster than SSD. I have MegaScenery Earth Northern and Southern CA installed, and after the initial scenery load, reloading scenery is a lot faster, as an example.

I have a EVGA X299 FTW motherboard, with a couple of built-in NVMem slots. I bought a heat sink for the NVMem, to avoid heat throttling. I have a full-service warranty at Best Buy, so they did the build for me. I wasn't happy with their Windows installation, so I ended up reformatting the C: drive and rebuilding the system from scratch. All the annoyances went away after I did that.

I'm not a fan of XPlane, but use what you want. Just make sure the simulator of choice supports the flight model(s) you want to use.
You can have multiple simulators on your computer, and use which ever one you think is best.

FSX:SE no longer remembers settings from one session to the next so I'm using Prepar3D now. V4 is better than V3, and V3's graphics blow FSX:SE's out of the water. V3 is their last 32 bit simulator, and V4 is their first 64 bit simulator. If the Evektor SportStar Max model would load on V4, I'd use that in a heart beat, but V3 is perfectly acceptable. Last I checked, the most recent version was V5, but V6 might be out by now. I have no experience with V5 or more recent.
 
Dry Creek said:
Thank you. I am not familiar with either of those two games you used as a reference though. I am not a gamer, but wanted a flight simulator as I'm a student pilot. A very low hour student pilot, battling weather and a busy schedule, as well as instructor plane downtime.
Sounds like I need to build/buy a system capable of running X-Plane 11.
Click to expand...
Since you’re not looking to build a gaming system, you can find XPlane 10 for much less $ and need a much less powerful system. I run on a MacMini 2019/2020 with 32 GB, one monitor (two if I want to move the other monitor) and a CH yoke. It’s for learning IFR procedures, not to spend time as a gamer. It’s also my portable system going out to schools and organizations when I’m promoting EAA or CAP.
 
Well, here is where I'm at now.

I upgraded my processor from an i3-7100 to an i7-7100. Went to 16 GB RAM, installed the 1TB cached SSD, and upgraded the video. The best I could do with my limited space was a Zotac nVidia GT-1030 with 2GB DDR5 VRAM.

It runs X-Plane 11 very well (using the Vulkan shaders), and it even runs MSFS 2020 in low-res mode surprisingly well. In XP-11, I go anywhere from 28 FOS with many clouds to an average of 45 on typical partly-cloudy days over mostly open territory. For a test I did fly in and out of DFW, frame rates never dipped below 35, and I am running at nearly maxed-out settings.
 
Austin, X-Plane's designer, recently released a progress report on Version 12. More than a "Next release is gonna be great" exercise, it's actually a detailed engineer's notes writeup on the hows and whys of aeronautical modeling. Search "X-Plane 12 Flight Model Report".
 
Really looking forward to Xp12. FS2020 looks nice but too many things still unfinished.
 
Sierra_Hotel said:
Really looking forward to Xp12. FS2020 looks nice but too many things still unfinished.
Click to expand...
I can't get the rudder pedals dialed in with MSFS 2020. They work fine under MSFS-X, XP-11 and FlightGear Simulator 2020.
 
TCABM said:
Whatcha got?
Click to expand...
ASUS TUF GT501 case, Gigabyte X570 AORUS Elite motherboard, AMD Ryzen 7 5800, RTX3080, 32gb ram, 1TB m2 SSD, liquid cooler, 32” viewsonic 1080p curved monitor, evga keyboard and mouse, Logitech Z533 speakers/sub, and I have Logitech proflight yoke, pedals, and throttle. It’d be a lot to ship
 
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