Holding Pattern Intercepts

labbadabba

labbadabba

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labbadabba
Instrument Student here. I recently did some work with my CFII in the simulator. He put me thru the ringer, one of the final scenarios was a partial panel LOC BC approach. Jeez.

Anyway, after really maxing out my brain, the last thing he had me do was fly a hold. I can determine holding entries pretty well but when it comes to Parallel and Teardrop entries I have an AWFUL time figuring out the bearing to intercept the fix after begining the procedure. In this case I was to fly a parallel entry and was trying to determine what would give me a good 30-degree intercept after my initial turn. I ended up doing the math wrong and ended up flying away from the fix rather than towards it.

So, I've come up with a little cheat sheet for intercepts.

Teardrop Entries:
Right Turns: -30 degrees of outbound (radial)
Left Turns: +30 degrees of outbound (radial)

Parallel Entries:
Right Turns: -30 degrees of inbound heading
Left Turns: +30 degrees of inbound heading

In other words, I have a teardrop entry on the 030 radial, right turns. The radial outbound is 030, if I subtract 30 I get 360. So when I overfly the fix, I turn to 360 for one minute and then begin my turn inbound to fly the inbound heading of 210 on the 030 radial.

For a parallel entry on the 030 radial with left turns. I know my inbound heading is going to be 210, I'll add 30 to get 240 which will give me my intercept. So I'll fly outbound on the 030 radial and then 240 to intercept the inbound heading of 210 on the 030 radial.

At this point I can't rely on my brain to visualize the headings. I need to know specifically what headings I'm going to target during the entry procedure. Sitting on the ground in front of my computer I can visualize it and figure it out. When in the clouds dealing with brain fog I want an easy way to do the math. Don't know if this is easier or not, lol...
 
That's what I do for a teardrop. But IMO a 30° intercept for a parallel is to shallow and you run the risk of not intercepting the inbound course in time. Just turn past the inbound heading and keep turning until the inbound heading is under the 45° reference on the heading indicator, or more if the wind or situation warrants it.
 
The mnemonic I use for teardrops is 30 away from outbound course. That is, left/right 30 deg (in the opposite direction as hold turns), rather than a specific heading. Then do the math on the DG.

For parallel fly outbound, then do a 180 using opposite turns from the hold, then keep going another 30.
 
Understand that 30° may be too much or too little depending on what the winds are doing. You have to be able to visualize where you are and where you're trying to intercept. It just takes practice.
 
Thanks - I think as I do more and more the mental gymnastics will subside. After a few years of flying I still can get locked up even trying to do something simple like determining a reciprocal heading if I'm under a high work load in the cockpit. I know +/- 30 degrees isn't a magic number but it's a starting point from which I can correct.

My goal is to never again end up flying off into some unknown direction away from the fix. I'll need to have it on paper just as an aide to my own SA until such time that it becomes second nature. I want to eliminate brain lock as much as I can.
 
most Heading Indicators and some CDIs have tick marks around the face of the instrument at 45 degree intervals. this is an instance where in the books a you need a surgical knife in the real world a butter knife will cut it just fine. in other words turn the aircraft in the general area of the tick mark and you'll be fine as long as you're on the protected side. a faster intercept will give you more time to try and figure your WCA inbound just be careful you don't blow through the course
 
1. Draw a 90 degree Compass Rose. I always put north at top for this.
2. A hold's location is defined by
A. A cardinal direction from the holding waypoint
B. The radial the hold is on
C. The direction of turn
3. Draw the inbound leg of the hold that matches the description
4. Draw the rest of the hold.
5. Draw the radial the airplane is on to intercept the hold.
6. Now draw the three area intercept boundries.

It sounds complicated and takes a few minutes. Dont get in a hurry. You are supposed to have 3 minutes to complete the task. I just did it and it took me 1 1/2 minutes. TAKE YOUR TIME. Understand it. Dont take any shortcuts.

Keep drawing them until you are an expert. Draw 100s of them over the course of a few weeks. Look at 100s of holds depicted on approach plates and enroute charts. Get comfortable with figuring out where holds are and what entry to use and what the ATC description is of the hold.
 

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This is an example of they type of hold pilots seem to have the most trouble understanding:
 

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coloradobluesky said:
1. Draw a 90 degree Compass Rose. I always put north at top for this.
2. A hold's location is defined by
A. A cardinal direction from the holding waypoint
B. The radial the hold is on
C. The direction of turn
3. Draw the inbound leg of the hold that matches the description
4. Draw the rest of the hold.
5. Draw the radial the airplane is on to intercept the hold.
6. Now draw the three area intercept boundries.

It sounds complicated and takes a few minutes. Dont get in a hurry. You are supposed to have 3 minutes to complete the task. I just did it and it took me 1 1/2 minutes. TAKE YOUR TIME. Understand it. Dont take any shortcuts.

Keep drawing them until you are an expert. Draw 100s of them over the course of a few weeks. Look at 100s of holds depicted on approach plates and enroute charts. Get comfortable with figuring out where holds are and what entry to use and what the ATC description is of the hold.
Click to expand...

Thanks, I'm actually mostly comfortable in figuring out what kind of entry to use. (I use the thumb method which is pretty foolproof) To visualize the hold I do draw it out but where I get in trouble is when I need make the turn back to the fix during a parallel/teardrop entry. In my last lesson I got so backwards and inside out on my turn back to the fix that I was 5 miles off to the other direction before I even knew what happened. I did the math, but I did it wrong and couldn't figure out why I couldn't get that damn CDI to come in.
 
labbadabba said:
Thanks, I'm actually mostly comfortable in figuring out what kind of entry to use. (I use the thumb method which is pretty foolproof) To visualize the hold I do draw it out but where I get in trouble is when I need make the turn back to the fix during a parallel/teardrop entry. In my last lesson I got so backwards and inside out on my turn back to the fix that I was 5 miles off to the other direction before I even knew what happened. I did the math, but I did it wrong and couldn't figure out why I couldn't get that damn CDI to come in.
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My guess is the main problem was turning in the wrong direction and not necessarily having difficulty calculating the amount of turn or the correct heading. Even if you calculate the heading correctly, you still might turn in the wrong direction. I might have made the same mistake once. :redface:

If it's a parallel entry, after flying outbound you turn toward the holding side, which is always going to be in the opposite direction as the holding turns (e.g. left if it's a standard hold), through more than 180°.
 
Just do whatever it takes to stay on the holding side and comply with the holding instructions once you cross the fix. No need to make it complicated.

You can work that out in your head, you don't even need any math, and you'll do it correctly every time.
 
wilkersk said:
Just do whatever it takes to stay on the holding side and comply with the holding instructions once you cross the fix. No need to make it complicated.

You can work that out in your head, you don't even need any math, and you'll do it correctly every time.
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This. This right here.

I used to struggle terribly with holding and the various formulas for figuring out the answer. Just stay on the protected side and enter it however you wish. If it looks easier to enter via parallel entry, then do so. There is nothing legally binding you to a particular entry. Just comply with the instructions and stay on the protected side. Do you really think a controller has time to query your entry if he or she determines that another entry would have been more correct by 2 degrees? lmao. Not that they would even do it in the first place. If you're holding, chances are that they're fairly busy.

Of course, the only time you have to get it done perfectly is the checkride. After that, use the common sense method.
 
One last hint. If you get to the holding waypoint and dont know which way to turn, turn in the cardinal direction that defines the hold. (If it is hold NW, turn NW). It works!
 
Cpt_Kirk said:
This. This right here.

Just comply with the instructions and stay on the protected side. Do you really think a controller has time to query your entry if he or she determines that another entry would have been more correct by 2 degrees? lmao. Not that they would even do it in the first place.

Of course, the only time you have to get it done perfectly is the checkride. After that, use the common sense method.
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Yup, putting on my retired controller hat, most, meaning the majority, of controllers have no idea about holding pattern entries. All they're concerned about is that you're on the protected side and you fly reasonably close to the holding fix, not flying outbound/inbound for 6 minutes when you're supposed to adjust for one minute inbound for example.

And Cpt Kirk is pretty much right as to when you have to do it, on check rides. Even at the airline the IP will typically ask you what entry you're going to make as you're flying towards the holding fix. If he gets a satisfactory answer he'll usually check off the hold and move onto another procedure.
 
labbadabba said:
Thanks, I'm actually mostly comfortable in figuring out what kind of entry to use. (I use the thumb method which is pretty foolproof) To visualize the hold I do draw it out but where I get in trouble is when I need make the turn back to the fix during a parallel/teardrop entry. In my last lesson I got so backwards and inside out on my turn back to the fix that I was 5 miles off to the other direction before I even knew what happened. I did the math, but I did it wrong and couldn't figure out why I couldn't get that damn CDI to come in.
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Learn to draw it out mentally on the heading indicator.
Magenta line is course you are flying.
Red is holding instructions - "hold north of XYZ VOR on 360 radial"
Yellow arrow points to the 'tick mark' on the HI that I was talking about earlier. Cross the fix, fly outbound for 1 minute, turn on the holding side towards a heading near the 'tick mark' on the heading indicator - no mental math required.


pic host
 
Easier way to do it in the airplane? Draw it on a scratch piece of paper.
 
Like most here are saying, I don't do any math. I use the Directional Gyro/Heading Indicator. It is a lot easier that way and I am less likely to mess up the math.
 
There are multiple ways to "see" the holding pattern, our position approaching it, and the appropriate entry. Because humans think and learn in different ways, a technique that works for one pilot will not work for another.

I've seen pilots who just "get it" - no math, no drawings, no thumbs or pencils on the DG. For others, it's simple mental math. Still others use the "draw the clearance" technique to create a physical picture as a reference. Personally, I finally lost my fear of hold entries and my tendency to screw them up badly when I realized charted holds were pretty easy with obvious entries but ad hoc holds were difficult, and started drawing them to make up the difference.

The two keys are to recognize that someone else's perfect technique might make no sense to you and to find one that does.
 
I always had, and still have, a mental problem when they say for instance "hold NW of fix". For me, the bulk of the hold is then flown, when plotted visually, to the SW of the actual hold, or at least a big part of it. I have to remind myself that what they're really saying is "your inbound leg should be NW of fix". Life would be much easier if we just got the inbound leg to a fix as a clearance, but for some reason that's not done. "Hold course 100 at DARTS" is much easier to grasp than "hold NW of DARTS on 280 radial".
 
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Something that helps to visualization, IMO, is that the controllers don't care so much what direction you're flying when they give you a hold. They care what airspace you're occupying. Hence, the "hold NW" thing means to occupy airspace northwest of the fix.

They are looking at a radar plot or a chart.

Of course they care how you'll exit the hold, as flying the wrong way can change the timing by a few minutes. But the main thing is to put you in some defined bit of airspace.
 
stratobee said:
I always had, and still have, a mental problem when they say for instance "hold NW of fix". For me, the bulk of the hold is then flown, when plotted visually, to the SW of the actual hold, or at least a big part of it. I have to remind myself that what they're really saying is "your inbound leg should be NW of fix". Life would be much easier if we just got the inbound leg to a fix as a clearance, but for some reason that's not done. "Hold course 100 at DARTS" is much easier to grasp than "hold NW of DARTS on 280 radial".
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The problem is that once we start with a mental picture that's wring it's hard to change it. Try making a cross on a piece of paper to simulate a compass and point to north, northeast, east, southeast, etc... when ATC gives you "hold east" or whatever direction, that's the place the holding pattern is located relative to the holding fix. And the inbound leg is always always always from that quadrant to the fix.
 
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midlifeflyer said:
The problem is that once we start with a mental picture that's wring it's hard to change it. Try making a cross on a piece of paper to simulate a compass and point to north, northeast, east, southeast, etc... when ATC gives you "hold east" or whatever direction, that's the place the holing pattern is located relative to the holding fix. And the inbound leg is always always always from that quadrant to the fix.
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That's exactly what confuses people/me. In the example "hold NW of fix" on a 120 degree radial (as in an earlier example), I would argue that almost as much of the holding pattern is in SW as it is in NW. So when you draw it out, it doesn't clarify much for those of us who are helped by visualization. You need to ignore the holding pattern, avoid drawing it out even, and just focus on the inbound leg. But that's not how it gets taught by CFI's.

Or you could just say "hold at fix on course 120". Done. Much easier. No confusion, no ambiguity.

newhold-png.48905
 
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stratobee said:
That's exactly what confuses people/me. In the example "hold NW of fix" on a 120 degree radial (as in an earlier example), I would argue that almost as much of the holding pattern is in SW as it is in NW. So when you draw it out, it doesn't clarify much for those of us who are helped by visualization. You need to ignore the holding pattern, avoid drawing it out even, and just focus on the inbound leg. But that's not how it gets taught by CFI's.

Or you could just say "hold at fix on course 120". Done. Much easier. No confusion, no ambiguity.
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There's the problem in a nutshell. Holds are generally taught in a uniform rote manner that gives no regard to situational awareness or the way an individual student learns or understands.

In the hold at a fix located on a radial example, the ultimate issue is understanding you are being told two independent things. One is to hold northwest of the fix on a certain radial or course. One needs to understand that "radial" is opposite of "course." And where "northwest" of a fix is. (And I would agree with you that using inbound courses might be a better instruction, especially with VORs starting their decline)

But the second problem in your example is the location of the fix. I don't see how your proposed change solves that issue. That fix in the example is still defined as a location that is 10 DME on a certain VOR radial. If your solution works for you, fine, but I don't see it as a universal way for understanding a hold at a fix that is defined as a location along a radial.

My problem with the drawing is, it's conceptually wrong. The cross is at the wrong place for "hold NW of the fix." It belongs at the fix, not at the VOR. If a cross at a VOR helps one understand the concept of radials on a basic non-instrument pilot level and where 10 miles on the VOR 120 radial is located, great. But it doesn't mean anything in terms of "hold northwest of the fix."
 
That one is confusing because the holding point is SE of the VOR and the hold is NW of the holding waypoint. You could draw the cross (I call it a compass rose) AT the holding waypoint if that makes more sense to you, but the way I drew it works for me. I do it this way because I say hmm, 120 degree radial off the VOR. So I draw a VOR and the 120 degree radial. Then I say 10 mile for FIX. I draw the 10 mile holding waypoint. Using the ATC instruction piece by piece I just logically find the hold and draw it. I just kept drawing holds with the accompanying ATC descriptions until it became easy, which it does after a while. Putting the compass rose at the VOR is pretty much the way most VOR's are depicted in the training manuals. At least thats how I learned to draw a VOR.

Keep in mind, you need to be able to draw it on paper for your oral, and find it and enter it for the flight test. Where do you think the DE would want to see the compass rose? Or your captain of a two pilot crew?

The ATC description is in the AIM and thats how ATC trains to say it. So your aren't going to be able to change that. You as a pilot have to adapt to the ATC way. That is what you will hear on the radio.
 
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BTW, someone pointed out that "10 DME fix" nomenclature is being replaced with "10 mile fix" nomenclature due to the replacement of DME equipment with RNAV (GPS) equipment in most planes.
 
There you have the confusion.

The holding waypoint is SE of the VOR, but the hold is NW of the holding waypoint. FIX is the holding waypoint. The VOR is NOT the holding waypoint. It is confusing until you get used to it. Ive had pilots tell me that hold is impossible. It is not impossible, its just a bit confusing until you get used to it. Thats why I posted it was the most difficult one to understand.
 
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coloradobluesky said:
There you have the confusion.

The holding waypoint is SW of the VOR, but the hold is NW of the holding waypoint. FIX is the holding waypoint. The VOR is NOT the holding waypoint. It is confusing until you get used to it. Ive had pilots tell me that hold is impossible. It is not impossible, its just a bit confusing until you get used to it. Thats why I posted it was the most difficult one to understand.
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I'm not confused. The holding waypoint is not SW of the VOR.
 
coloradobluesky said:
There you have the confusion.

The holding waypoint is SE of the VOR, but the hold is NW of the holding waypoint. FIX is the holding waypoint. The VOR is NOT the holding waypoint. It is confusing until you get used to it. Ive had pilots tell me that hold is impossible. It is not impossible, its just a bit confusing until you get used to it. Thats why I posted it was the most difficult one to understand.
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Everything is confusing until you take the time to understand it.
 
coloradobluesky said:
If drawing it this way makes more sense to you go ahead. I dont see anything wrong with it.
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Exactly. In that drawing the hold is definitely "northwest of the fix." I think what confuses most is that "the fix" does not mean "the VOR." When this stuff is first taught, most CFIIs use only VORs as the example, so we end up with a mental disconnect when "the fix" is anything else.
 
Here's something that might help when where the VOR is that defines the holding course is clouding the issue. Use a fix that is on an airway with no doglegs. Put aside changeover points for another day. Now draw the picture again using the VOR on the other end. Go back and forth a couple times until it sinks in.
 
I don't know if this helps anyone but I've seen the "hold northwest at the 120 radial 10 mile fix" scenario cause so many problems for students and pilots, I decided to make a video explaining it using a draw the hold technique.
 
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Your making it to complicated. Parallel you turn in the wrong direction, teardrop you turn in the proper direction.

Bob
 
Are holding patterns something one learns for the VFR PPL? I tried to watch a video on them and the graphic showed the plane enter and fly against the flow and then turn around and go with traffic. It was very confusing.
 
unsafervguy said:
Your making it to complicated. Parallel you turn in the wrong direction, teardrop you turn in the proper direction.

Bob
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Yes. And conceptually, pick the one with the least amount of turns.
 
MetalCloud said:
Yes. And conceptually, pick the one with the least amount of turns.
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Totally agree - ATC does not care how you enter a hold, as long as you stay on the "correct" side of the line. I am not entirely sure why CFII's have to care and make it so precise. IFR students then over-complicate it and spend way too much time figuring it out. It should take a couple of seconds, and it should not be a big deal if you do parallel where teardrop was the correct answer.
 
MAKG1 said:
Parallel and teardrop have the same amount of turns. You pick the one with the smaller initial turn, and favor teardrop if it's close.
Click to expand...

Yes. Good clarification.

Edit: if you try a parallel from a teardrop position, I think it'll be more complicated to enter. So pick the easiest one :)
 
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