HIMS **** quizzes, and NyQuil
- Thread starter HIMSpilot
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The normal NyQuil does contain alcohol and will be a BIG problem to you if you're subject to testing. They make an alternative Alcohol-free formulation, but if you use it: BE CAREFUL of what you are consuming.
As Dr. B points out, once your in HIMS you need to guard your urine at all costs. We had a guy recently strung up because he claims that he inadvertently got some barbecue cooked in beer.
As Dr. B points out, once your in HIMS you need to guard your urine at all costs. We had a guy recently strung up because he claims that he inadvertently got some barbecue cooked in beer.
George S
Pre-takeoff checklist
Depending on how extensive your drug tests are some medications such as NyQuil also contain diphenhydramine (Benadryl) which is also a big no no in HIMS so be careful of that in other otc medications as well.
Thank you !
ateamer
Pattern Altitude
Unless that barbecue was absolutely drowning in beer, and he was tested within a couple hours of eating it, he’s as full of crap as the notion that barbecue is cooked in liquid.
FatherPilot
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squawkvfr
I heavily used NyQuil throat spray within 36 hours of an unexpected ten panel etG, etS and it didn't show up. It did worry me, though.
The throat spray is benzocaine and menthol. No alcohol or anything that would show up on a ten panel.
Thank you.. I believe the urine test is more sensitive than breath tests used in DOT randoms, but not sure ..
George S
Pre-takeoff checklist
The faa forbids HIMS pilots from taking any “habit forming” medications.
It takes a long time for alcohol to boil off...
Does Alcohol Evaporate from Cooking Wine?
How much alcohol remains after a dish is cooked? You might be surprised...
www.foodnetwork.com
While it's not like most people get drunk by drinking a gallon white wine gravy, it seems possible that something like that could still have enough booze to be detectable if your pager goes off the day you ate a giant thanksgiving dinner.
ateamer
Pattern Altitude
Alcohol is metabolized at what comes out to a half to one drink per hour. Meaning you have a drink, and in two hours or so your blood alcohol concentration is .00. If the Nyquil was taken per directions, you’ll be a .00 long before waking up.
George S
Pre-takeoff checklist
The urine screenings test for an enzyme that ethanol breaks down into once metabolized call etg/ets. These can be detected in instances when people have just used hand sanitizer or eaten certain foods. If the lab uses to low of a cutoff on the screenings there have been many cases of false positives.
GaryM
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Gary M
Not exactly, the metabolism more follows a half-life model. In equal time intervals (not sure if it's hourly or some other interval), the blood alcohol level drops to 1/2, then to 1/4, then to 1/8... But yeah, NyQuil before bed shouldn't leave much residual alcohol in the blood by morning.
WingmanMed
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WingmanMed
EtG and PEth testing can both detect metabolites of alcohol long after your BAC returns to 0. There are MANY alcohol free alternatives to NyQuil that address congestion much better. Don't forget that NyQuil also contains doxylamine as an active ingredient. You'll need to wait at least 60 hours after each dose of NyQuil before you can fly.
I’ve used Sudafed (the real behind-the-counter, show-your-ID stuff) and it worked well. Last I knew, the FAA was okay with it.
I believe NyQuil also has a cough suppressant. Is there a good one that’s FAA blessed?
Note that Nyquil has no decongenstant. It's got acetaminophen (a pain killer and antifever drug, same as Tylenol), dextromethorphan (a cough suppressant), and doxylamine (antihistamine) and alcohol (in the normal formulation, but they do make an alcohol free).
Vick's other product, Dayquil has dextromethorphan, guaifenesin (expectorant, same as Mucinex), and Phenylephrine, which is a completely ineffective ingredient taken orally. Tests have show that PE doesn't get a measurable amount into your bloodstream even if you quadruple the recommended dose. It does however work quite well when used as a nasal spray, but it just doesn't survive the digestive track.
Vick's other product, Dayquil has dextromethorphan, guaifenesin (expectorant, same as Mucinex), and Phenylephrine, which is a completely ineffective ingredient taken orally. Tests have show that PE doesn't get a measurable amount into your bloodstream even if you quadruple the recommended dose. It does however work quite well when used as a nasal spray, but it just doesn't survive the digestive track.
Jon Wilder
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Is that the Charles Erwin case you're referring to?
Yes.
Tools
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Tools
And THERE is the hims program in a nutshell… urine management. You better get smart on that subject because the entirety of the system administrating your career damn sure ain’t.
I personally know the guy who introduced ETG testing for abstinence verification and he flatly agrees the faa allows and supports incorrect interpretation of results.
Of course the test is neither fda approved NOR subject to expert interpretation, known as MRO review in quasi legit DAPs. Why no MRO review? NO SUCH TRAINING EVEN EXISTS, and I also personally know the nations leading provider of MRO certification.
Still skeptical of my cynicism? Consider it’s FAR easier to flatly beat the faa biomarker based abstinence verification system than avoid a positive test caused by incidental exposure, false positives, analytical (including pre and post) error or deliberate test result alteration.
Clip4
Touchdown! Greaser!
He must have drinking the barbecue sauce and a lot of it.
Tools
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Tools
Well, not necessarily, or even likely. At 100 ng/ml about anything is possible. The WORLD’S authority on the subject, Dr Skipper, who originally set that low threshold (arbitrarily) now says a level of 1500 ng/ml is more appropriate to indicate deliberate consumption ALONG WITH collaborating data.
I know Dr Skipper. I know Mr Erwin. Not just talking out my ass here.
I know Dr Skipper. I know Mr Erwin. Not just talking out my ass here.
bbchien
Touchdown! Greaser!
Neither am I.
I have a guy who has been accidentally postiive three times. He is permitted to fly again, because his HIMS Peer mentor, his chief pilot, his AA sponsor, his Psychiatrist, and I do not believe he's relapsed. We CAN override the some biomarker. He's got a great recovery going and all five of us have been in agreement.
However his testing program is tough tough tough and he has finally learned. 2.5 years flying now, without a postiive test.
I have a guy who has been accidentally postiive three times. He is permitted to fly again, because his HIMS Peer mentor, his chief pilot, his AA sponsor, his Psychiatrist, and I do not believe he's relapsed. We CAN override the some biomarker. He's got a great recovery going and all five of us have been in agreement.
However his testing program is tough tough tough and he has finally learned. 2.5 years flying now, without a postiive test.
Tools
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Tools
Awesome, that’s TWO of a HUNDRED cases now…. Not a great average.
And while we have our differences, I KNOW you’ll stand up for a guy whom you trust. Unfortunately THAT is uncommon. VERY uncommon. That’s problematic.
Sad when THEIR OWN guidance says that’s EXACTLY how it should be done, and it’s RARE.
What recourse does a guy have when the faa won’t follow THEIR OWN guidance? Is a NTSB appeal all they have? Wow…. Careers often don’t even last that long.
You said once on this forum it’s an airman’s RESPONSIBILITY to get a negative test. Does that trump “recovery”? Worrying about a pre-analytical lab error the faa refuses to acknowledge? Or provide ANY sensible relief from? It’s criminal.
And while we have our differences, I KNOW you’ll stand up for a guy whom you trust. Unfortunately THAT is uncommon. VERY uncommon. That’s problematic.
Sad when THEIR OWN guidance says that’s EXACTLY how it should be done, and it’s RARE.
What recourse does a guy have when the faa won’t follow THEIR OWN guidance? Is a NTSB appeal all they have? Wow…. Careers often don’t even last that long.
You said once on this forum it’s an airman’s RESPONSIBILITY to get a negative test. Does that trump “recovery”? Worrying about a pre-analytical lab error the faa refuses to acknowledge? Or provide ANY sensible relief from? It’s criminal.
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That's just infuriatingly broken...
Kenny Phillips
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Kenny Phillips
And after all of that, I'm gonna say that 95% of busted tests are because the airman did something he shouldn't have.
Jon Wilder
Pre-takeoff checklist
He was able to prove -
1) That he did, in fact, order the barbecue pulled pork from the restaurant.
2) That the barbecue was, in fact, prepared in beer.
3) That the restaurant made no mention of the fact that the pulled pork was prepared with beer on the menu, thus he could not reasonably know that the meal he ordered was prepared in beer.
Keep in mind just how low the threshold they test for EtG is. Mr Erwin's test was just slightly above the threshold. If the threshold had been 200ng/mL, he would have passed the screen. Moreover, he submitted PeTH, hair follicle, and nail samples, all of which proved negative for alcohol consumption. But the FAA refused to accept the more in depth tests and went by the screen, which they themselves even say not to do.
The final straw was the fact that the FAA couldn't even provide one sentence as to the why and wherefore of the additional evidence presented being insufficient. Only that they "considered" it. Thus, the court ruled that the FAA acted arbitrary and capricious in not reversing the withdrawal, causing his reputation with the airline to be ruined.
Thus they had to eat crow and reverse the withdrawal.
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Jon Wilder
Pre-takeoff checklist
Contrary to popular belief, alcohol DOES NOT completely cook out.
Studies have been done on this, and what was found was that the longer you cook, the more alcohol cooks out, but you have to cook food for about 3 hours to fully erase all traces of alcohol. A study from the USDA's Nutrient Data Lab confirmed this and added that food baked or simmered in alcohol for 15 minutes still retains 40% of the alcohol.
Idaho State University has this article covering the matter -
No Worries, the Alcohol Burns Off During Cooking—But, Does It Really?
The holiday gathering featured family favorites with a twist. My friend infused each recipe with the unique profiles of booze: beer cornbread, beef with wine sauce, carrots in bourbon sauce, salad greens tossed with a champagne vinaigrette, and amaretto apple crisp. However, this feast worried...
HIMS drug/alcohol testing looks for the presence of the Ethyl Glucuronide (EtG) biomarkers at typically 100 ng/mL threshold. Considering that the doctor who established EtG testing now says that 1500 ng/mL is a more appropriate threshold to detect deliberate consumption ALONG WITH collaborating data, this threshold is EXTREMELY low. Low enough for even alcohol-based mouthwash used as directed to be detected.
Mr. Erwin's court documents stated that had the threshold been 200 ng/mL, he would have passed.
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