HIMS process hell

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Kab1985

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Kab1985
I’ve been reading posts on this forum for a while now and wanted to share what’s been going on with my husbands first class medical SI. He is an airline captain, self disclosed for alcohol abuse and voluntarily entered in patient treatment April 2021. Been sober since. He’s been super involved in AA, done everything and more that is required as part of Hims. He got a horrible medical team and all three are no longer with HIMS. His psychologist was blacklisted as an approved psychologist. This guy refused to write his report despite good cog screen results because he disagreed with his relationship with me (I am also in recovery). It took over a year and then he wrote a negative report based on our relationship alone. His Psychiatrist then took 17 months to write her report. His AME did nothing to help and wouldn’t even communicate, only did so through his secretary. Report was finally submitted on 4/18/23, and has been in the FAA black hole since. He had to get a new AME, psychologist and psychiatrist, have all new evaluations, and his disability ran out July of last year through his Airline. This process had been beyond torture for him, me and our three young children. At a loss and don’t know what else to do. We’ve spent over $60k on all of this not to mention lost wages, retirement etc. We’ve written to congressman, only to get a response that it’ll be another 4 months cause his case needs reviewed by an external consultant. Any advise is appreciated.
 
The HIMS program working as it’s supposed to, lining the pockets of its corrupt HIMS ame, psychologists and psychiatrists. Unfortunately for your husband he went to the wrong HIMS psychiatrist and ame. The only thing you can really do is wait. Contacting my congressman’s office got me a response after the faa ignored me for over a year but you guys already tried that. His new ame could try and get an answer where your husband is in the line of review but my experience is they don’t really care. Hang tight.
 
With all the complaints around here about the HIMS program or other FAA requirements nobody wants to discuss the fact that there are alot of pilots that were or are flying that shouldn't have been. They come on here mad at the FAA for having to jump.through hoops to keep flying but completely gloss over that they were putting people in danger before they got caught or decided to finslly fess up. It's commendable that your husband is 3 years sober but how many years was he flying as an airline captain before he finally admitted to his alcohol abuse? How many times was he not completely sober or hung over and behind the controls? Sometimes there are consequences for your actions. In this case the consequence is having to jump through alot of hoops in order to keep the privelage of flying the public around. Be glad he has that option.
 
As someone who works in 121, posting anon for that reason

Your husband self reported?
Think the bigger issue here is his very very poor judgement

Should have taken a leave of absence and just handled whatever demons on his own off the books, if he has the experience to be a 122 captain I don’t understand how he doesn’t understand this.


Bad judgement and poor risk analysis has crashed more planes than booze
 
Kab1985 said:
I’ve been reading posts on this forum for a while now and wanted to share what’s been going on with my husbands first class medical SI. He is an airline captain, self disclosed for alcohol abuse and voluntarily entered in patient treatment April 2021. Been sober since. He’s been super involved in AA, done everything and more that is required as part of Hims. He got a horrible medical team and all three are no longer with HIMS. His psychologist was blacklisted as an approved psychologist. This guy refused to write his report despite good cog screen results because he disagreed with his relationship with me (I am also in recovery). It took over a year and then he wrote a negative report based on our relationship alone. His Psychiatrist then took 17 months to write her report. His AME did nothing to help and wouldn’t even communicate, only did so through his secretary. Report was finally submitted on 4/18/23, and has been in the FAA black hole since. He had to get a new AME, psychologist and psychiatrist, have all new evaluations, and his disability ran out July of last year through his Airline. This process had been beyond torture for him, me and our three young children. At a loss and don’t know what else to do. We’ve spent over $60k on all of this not to mention lost wages, retirement etc. We’ve written to congressman, only to get a response that it’ll be another 4 months cause his case needs reviewed by an external consultant. Any advise is appreciated.
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I understand this process is a hardship for your family, but who is responsible for your and your husband substance abuse issues?

Sharing a home with another person in recovery makes recovery less likely.
 
Clip4 said:
I understand this process is a hardship for your family, but who is responsible for your and your husband substance abuse issues?

Sharing a home with another person in recovery makes recovery less likely.
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why does it make recovery less likely. seems to me th opposite
 
kmacht said:
With all the complaints around here about the HIMS program or other FAA requirements nobody wants to discuss the fact that there are alot of pilots that were or are flying that shouldn't have been. They come on here mad at the FAA for having to jump.through hoops to keep flying but completely gloss over that they were putting people in danger before they got caught or decided to finslly fess up. It's commendable that your husband is 3 years sober but how many years was he flying as an airline captain before he finally admitted to his alcohol abuse? How many times was he not completely sober or hung over and behind the controls? Sometimes there are consequences for your actions. In this case the consequence is having to jump through alot of hoops in order to keep the privelage of flying the public around. Be glad he has that option.
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I agree with you that there are lots of pilots that are flying that shouldn't be. But who would want to fess up if they knew the process to regain their medical certificate is this long and hard. If only the process can be simpler once the experts agree that the pilot is safe to fly again, wouldn't more pilots be willing to seek treatment and therefore making the skies safer?
 
JoshuaKnowsBetter said:
Should have taken a leave of absence and just handled whatever demons on his own off the books, if he has the experience to be a 122 captain I don’t understand how he doesn’t understand this.
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This is where it’s most common. Especially if a union is involved as they are FAR from honest about what the process really entails, or it’s applicability.
 
kmacht said:
How many times was he not completely sober or hung over and behind the controls? Sometimes there are consequences for your actions. In this case the consequence is having to jump through alot of hoops in order to keep the privelage of flying the public around. Be glad he has that option.
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This isn't some weird punishment. If the FAA was punishing him he would be fined or in jail, or he would lose his license. These hoops are not the "consequences of his actions," if he did nothing wrong and simply developed some other minor medical issue he would still have to jump through them.

All these pretty unreasonable hoops (long timeframes due to poor communication processes, unnecessary tests, extremely extensive medical history requirements) just deter pilots from seeking treatment or reporting to the FAA.

Just look at some of the replies to this post, people suggesting the pilot should have kept his mouth shut. Maybe they are right, but they shouldn't be. They should be going "get treatment and report to the FAA, they are pretty good with getting you back up in the air and flying if you are responsible." Sadly, they cannot say that because its not true. Even if you are responsible and safe, there is no decent guarantee you will be able to fly any time soon.
 
Uh… faa forces HIMS victims to associate EXTENSIVELY with hoards of people “in recovery”, often advocating them to break ties with their own family (in recovery themselves or not).

So this HIMS team is telling a guy to can his wife and children mother in favor of some stranger addict. Brilliant.

Ever look up the definition of a cult?
 
Clip4 said:
Both are fighting addiction and in recovery. Because if one fails there is increased risk the other will too.
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conversely if both are working a recovery program they have a stronger support system
 
Wheresmychute said:
This isn't some weird punishment. If the FAA was punishing him he would be fined or in jail, or he would lose his license. These hoops are not the "consequences of his actions," if he did nothing wrong and simply developed some other minor medical issue he would still have to jump through them.
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The FAA (thankfully) can't put people in jail. It would take a real (US District) court rather than the kangaroo court of the FAA enforcement.
 
Nor can they fine him. Certificate action is all they can do autonomously.

I know they threaten fines, everyone I know that fought it, won.
 
Just to clarify... my husband did nothing wrong. He never ever flew intoxicated. He sought help and trusted the guidance provided by the HIMS team at his airline, but was obviously wrong in doing so. He had no idea how detrimental the HIMS process would actually be until it was too late.
 
Wheresmychute said:
This isn't some weird punishment. If the FAA was punishing him he would be fined or in jail, or he would lose his license. These hoops are not the "consequences of his actions," if he did nothing wrong and simply developed some other minor medical issue he would still have to jump through them.

All these pretty unreasonable hoops (long timeframes due to poor communication processes, unnecessary tests, extremely extensive medical history requirements) just deter pilots from seeking treatment or reporting to the FAA.

Just look at some of the replies to this post, people suggesting the pilot should have kept his mouth shut. Maybe they are right, but they shouldn't be. They should be going "get treatment and report to the FAA, they are pretty good with getting you back up in the air and flying if you are responsible." Sadly, they cannot say that because its not true. Even if you are responsible and safe, there is no decent guarantee you will be able to fly any time soon.
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Having to deal with the HIMS program is certainly a consequence of him deciding to become an alcoholic. It was a choice he made at some point. If you think it’s a disease and not a choice then you would also have to admit that he can not be cured and is only sober because he chose differently now and there is nothing stoping him from changing that choice again. Flying is a privilege not a right. He chose to be a pilot and he chose to drink. It’s not like he didn’t know what he was doing was wrong. That he has to jump through hoops is testimate to the fact that most alcoholics relapse at some point. Maybe he is one of the very few that won’t but the FAA sure as hell wants to make sure and uses the HIMS program to try and weed out those who will. I have very little sympathy for those who drive or fly while under the influence and even less for those who complain about the hoops they have to jump through because they made that decision. It shocks me that there are those people n here that are defending him or saying he should have hid it.
 
kmacht said:
Having to deal with the HIMS program is certainly a consequence of him deciding to become an alcoholic. It was a choice he made at some point. If you think it’s a disease and not a choice then you would also have to admit that he can not be cured and is only sober because he chose differently now and there is nothing stoping him from changing that choice again. Flying is a privilege not a right. He chose to be a pilot and he chose to drink. It’s not like he didn’t know what he was doing was wrong. That he has to jump through hoops is testimate to the fact that most alcoholics relapse at some point. Maybe he is one of the very few that won’t but the FAA sure as hell wants to make sure and uses the HIMS program to try and weed out those who will. I have very little sympathy for those who drive or fly while under the influence and even less for those who complain about the hoops they have to jump through because they made that decision. It shocks me that there are those people n here that are defending him or saying he should have hid it.
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This is legitimately the most ignorant comment I've ever heard in my life. Educate yourself. Alcoholism is a disease and not a choice.
 
Well…

HIMS only exists to abrogate the 2 yr requirement to get an unrestricted medical. That’s it. It’s the definition of “discretion” with respect to 14cfr67.107.a4. It’s unofficially evolved to the overencompassing useless program it is that somehow mitigates the safety issue associated with ANY CONVOLUTED form of mental issue. Spoiler alert, it doesn’t.

I don’t see a problem arguing against a non effective program. If you’re going to attribute aviation’s amazing safety record with respect to alcohol abuse to it… another spoiler alert, it existed BEFORE HIMS, so that really doesn’t hold water.

I really don’t see how it’s proven to be effective at combatting issues it was never even intended to combat. That use of it is typical knee jerk reaction at best.
 
kmacht said:
It shocks me that there are those people n here that are defending him or saying he should have hid it.
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Yea he should not have done it, and in my last comment I stated that people shouldn't be suggesting he hide it. But that's beside the point.

The point is these outrageous hoops would only deter someone from seeking treatment. After all, you don't have to report self-medicating with alcohol. Hating pilots who drink I would assume you want those who do suffer from alcoholism to be able to seek a path to recovery.

Also, someone who seeks treatment, even for an issue of their causing, is to be commended. This person saw and issue, and is self-grounding out of concern for themselves and others. That is the right call. It's no small secret that many pilots suffer from a drinking problem.
 
George S said:
Nobody ever decides to become an alcoholic. That was probably the dumbest most ignorant thing I have ever read on this forum and shows you how ignorant some people are.
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Choices were made. What led to it might not have been controllable - but there are people who choose not to drink, never to drink, or even rarely drink. Thats like saying no one ever chooses to be a heroin addict. Uh - how did you get to that point ?

kmacht said:
Having to deal with the HIMS program is certainly a consequence of him deciding to become an alcoholic. It was a choice he made at some point. If you think it’s a disease and not a choice then you would also have to admit that he can not be cured and is only sober because he chose differently now and there is nothing stoping him from changing that choice again. Flying is a privilege not a right. He chose to be a pilot and he chose to drink. It’s not like he didn’t know what he was doing was wrong. That he has to jump through hoops is testimate to the fact that most alcoholics relapse at some point. Maybe he is one of the very few that won’t but the FAA sure as hell wants to make sure and uses the HIMS program to try and weed out those who will. I have very little sympathy for those who drive or fly while under the influence and even less for those who complain about the hoops they have to jump through because they made that decision. It shocks me that there are those people n here that are defending him or saying he should have hid it.
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I agree with everything said here. And it shocks me as well those people who defend that, advise to hide it, or lie about it. Raise the standard.
 
George S said:
Nobody ever decides to become an alcoholic. That was probably the dumbest most ignorant thing I have ever read on this forum and shows you how ignorant some people are.
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Sure they do. Nobody forced him to take the first, second, or thousandth drink. He consciously chose to pick up the bottle at some point and consciously chose alcohol over a flying career. Maybe he took it too far and was having trouble living without the effects of alcohol or maybe he was using alcohol to mask other issues but nobody forced him to pick up a bottle just like nobody can force him to stop. It has to be his choice and that’s the problem. One day the guy just decided to stop drinking. What’s to keep him from deciding to start back up tomorrow? Absolutely nothing because if you admit it was his choice to stop then you also have to admit it was his choice to start. He chose alcohol and alcoholism. Maybe it was a bad choice and he regrets it but it was still a choice.
 
kmacht said:
Sure they do. Nobody forced him to take the first, second, or thousandth drink. He consciously chose to pick up the bottle at some point and consciously chose alcohol over a flying career. Maybe he took it too far and was having trouble living without the effects of alcohol or maybe he was using alcohol to mask other issues but nobody forced him to pick up a bottle just like nobody can force him to stop. It has to be his choice and that’s the problem. One day the guy just decided to stop drinking. What’s to keep him from deciding to start back up tomorrow? Absolutely nothing because if you admit it was his choice to stop then you also have to admit it was his choice to start. He chose alcohol and alcoholism. Maybe it was a bad choice and he regrets it but it was still a choice.
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There is much accuracy in your statement but a blatant error. I'll excuse your ignorance (please do not take offence as I am implying a lack of knowledge in the area). No one chooses to become an alcoholic; there are many factors involved as to why it happens to some who drink and not to others. However, we are in complete agreement that one chooses to take a drink. If one knows that they are an alcoholic, that once alcohol is in their system they have little to no control over what happens next, and they choose to drink anyway....I have no sympathy for the consequences that result.
 
This is the perfect discussion… which reveals the root cause.

Is it a disease, or not?

If so, you can’t go around saying it’s “their choice”. If not, fine, it is their choice, and a bad one, so make it an enforcement thing, not medical. Forensic vs clinical?

The root problem here is the faa uses what they want from BOTH camps. THAT is the problem. They are exclusive. Pick a side, do it right.
 
Kab1985 said:
Just to clarify... my husband did nothing wrong. He never ever flew intoxicated. He sought help and trusted the guidance provided by the HIMS team at his airline, but was obviously wrong in doing so. He had no idea how detrimental the HIMS process would actually be until it was too late.
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Didn’t he have a union rep?
 
Anthem said:
Choices were made. What led to it might not have been controllable - but there are people who choose not to drink, never to drink, or even rarely drink. Thats like saying no one ever chooses to be a heroin addict. Uh - how did you get to that point ?



I agree with everything said here. And it shocks me as well those people who defend that, advise to hide it, or lie about it. Raise the standard.
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very easy to be judgmental when it’s not an issue you deal with
 
Tools said:
Nor can they fine him. Certificate action is all they can do autonomously.

I know they threaten fines, everyone I know that fought it, won.
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I don't think they can against individuals (and small businesses).
 
kmacht said:
Having to deal with the HIMS program is certainly a consequence of him deciding to become an alcoholic. It was a choice he made at some point. If you think it’s a disease and not a choice then you would also have to admit that he can not be cured and is only sober because he chose differently now and there is nothing stoping him from changing that choice again. Flying is a privilege not a right. He chose to be a pilot and he chose to drink. It’s not like he didn’t know what he was doing was wrong. That he has to jump through hoops is testimate to the fact that most alcoholics relapse at some point. Maybe he is one of the very few that won’t but the FAA sure as hell wants to make sure and uses the HIMS program to try and weed out those who will. I have very little sympathy for those who drive or fly while under the influence and even less for those who complain about the hoops they have to jump through because they made that decision. It shocks me that there are those people n here that are defending him or saying he should have hid it.
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Ignorance is bliss.
 
Kab1985 said:
This is legitimately the most ignorant comment I've ever heard in my life. Educate yourself. Alcoholism is a disease and not a choice.
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this is what causes the problem. it is recognized as a disease, a disease with no cure, only treatment. the FAA does not deal with disease with no cure well. they must insure that a change in the status of the disease does not cause a safety of flight issue. even the system in place does no really ensure that, the only real system that would show a 100 percent compliance rate would be a mandatory monitored test before each flight. does anybody really want that? like it or not, the current system does have a good success rate, im sure changes can be made, but change is slow with any government agency.
 
Anthem said:
Sounds like someone cant handle the process.. . . lol
Not an admin - but beware. Looks like two violations right here if the admins decide to take action. . . .
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Certainly won’t change the facts if they do take action!
 
unsafervguy said:
this is what causes the problem. it is recognized as a disease, a disease with no cure, only treatment. the FAA does not deal with disease with no cure well. they must insure that a change in the status of the disease does not cause a safety of flight issue. even the system in place does no really ensure that, the only real system that would show a 100 percent compliance rate would be a mandatory monitored test before each flight. does anybody really want that? like it or not, the current system does have a good success rate, im sure changes can be made, but change is slow with any government agency.
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The current system’s “success rate” does not reflect accurate data and therefore is not what they want us to believe!
 
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