HIMS 1st Class Medical Maze

[Jonathan Stein]

Such BS. Does the NTSB have "data" or are they making this stuff up as they go along?

The NTSB just like the faa are run by a much of scumbag bureaucrats that do not really have to answer to anyone. They claim that they do everything in the name of safety but that’s obviously not true (737 max).

if they are requiring everyone who is currently in HIMS to be on lifetime monitoring then they should be pulling the pilots that have been released from HIMS back in as well. If they don’t then it’s a clear case of discrimination. I am 100% sure there will be a lawsuit in the near future contesting this crap. Or if we’re really lucky the current FAS will just got away and retire and the next one can do away with his stupid new policy.

I can guarantee that this new policy will cause pilots to either not seek help for a substance abuse problem or they will secretly get help without HIMS. This has literally made the sky a less safe place, which the faa claims is their primary goal, safety.

 

[bbchien]

Not entirely. The recidivism rate is up...so to those who would just "spout", I say be careful.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

Not entirely. The recidivism rate is up...so to those who would just "spout", I say be careful.

Lifetime monitoring for everyone is not an appropriate response. It’s a lazy totalitarian way out and contrary to how we should govern ourselves.

Government behaving this way should be careful.

 

[bbchien]

Lifetime monitoring for everyone is not an appropriate response. It’s a lazy totalitarian way out and contrary to how we should govern ourselves.

Should
Should
Should
So what do you do when you have limited resources?

"Ground ''em all".
Be careful for what you wish.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

Should
Should
Should
So what do you do when you have limited resources?

"Ground ''em all".
Be careful for what you wish.

I can say the same thing in the opposite direction Doc. The government only has authority because we give it to them...

 

[GRRR]

There was a general tightening in February 2020.

After growing up from 20 yrs old and not even getting a parking ticket for the last 16 years, being sober for 5.5 on my own will and peeing in a cup for the last 3.5 yrs, if they want to mandate AA at this point, I shall happily return my medical. 5 more years of pee and annual psych doesn’t matter but the other requirements such as 2x week AA, now...makes zero sense.

 

[Jonathan Stein]

After growing up from 20 yrs old and not even getting a parking ticket for the last 16 years, being sober for 5.5 on my own will and peeing in a cup for the last 3.5 yrs, if they want to mandate AA at this point, I shall happily return my medical. 5 more years of pee and annual psych doesn’t matter but the other requirements such as 2x week AA, now...makes zero sense.

It’s not just 5 more years. At the end of that 5 years you are going to get another letter stating you are being extended for another 5 years and this will keep happening until you don’t want a medical anymore. It’s their way of giving lifetime monitoring without saying you are on lifetime monitoring.

and FYI, I don’t think they can legally make you go to AA. United is getting sued by one of their pilots for mandating AA, but if you really want to you can just tell them you go to aa. There’s no way for them to know.

 

[GRRR]

It’s not just 5 more years. At the end of that 5 years you are going to get another letter stating you are being extended for another 5 years and this will keep happening until you don’t want a medical anymore. It’s their way of giving lifetime monitoring without saying you are on lifetime monitoring.

understood. Especially since I have not proven my case in the past 3.5 yrs. 5 more will just continue to be 5 more. Oh well - at least I have some time before renewal to figure *** out.

 

[MacFly]

Not entirely. The recidivism rate is up...so to those who would just "spout", I say be careful.

I'd love to see that data. Better yet, I'd love to see that that "recidivism", if it exists, is contributing to a higher accident rate anywhere in aviation. Frankly, I strongly doubt it, but since evidence-based medicine is now the order of the day, I'm certainly willing to have my mind changed if someone, anyone, can provide the evidence. Speaking of spouting.....

 

[Jonathan Stein]

I honestly believe that the faa pays some stupid mid level bureaucrat $100k a year to come up with policies and procedures to make things much more difficult than need be. “Yes, let’s make these pilots print out a bunch of files from their computer then have them mail it all to us and then have a bunch of employees spend weeks scanning these files into our system and then shred the files.”
It would be much better if these lazy government pieces of crap were transparent and just say to our faces “we can do whatever the **** we want and you can kindly **** right off”. Atleast they’d finally be telling the truth.

 

[wsuffa]

. The government only has authority because we give it to them...

That’s a nice, but very naive thought.
Anything else I say will spin this thread political.

 

[RussS]

Government over-reach at its finest. The take-away I hear all the time is "it's their sky". We should just be happy to be allowed to fly in it at all.

 

[Anon]

Is it wise to call your regional office for updates on your own rather than calling OKC? I’m seems in this case it really moved things along, and I have seen others say this is an under utilized resource. Thoughts?

 

[PaulS]

Should
Should
Should
So what do you do when you have limited resources?

"Ground ''em all".
Be careful for what you wish.

Bruce, what does it mean, "recidivism rate is up"? Are we talking pilots being bagged under the influence while attempting to fly or flying? Or are we seeing pilots falling off the wagon, owning up and getting help, but not committing any flying offenses?

 

[Jonathan Stein]

Is it wise to call your regional office for updates on your own rather than calling OKC? I’m seems in this case it really moved things along, and I have seen others say this is an under utilized resource. Thoughts?

My regional flight surgeon office is usually much quicker to answer the phone then OKC, but in my experience that’s the only difference between the 2. Both are equally as useless. I think the OP was just very lucky and found someone that wanted to be helpful which is very rare with government workers.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

That’s a nice, but very naive thought.
Anything else I say will spin this thread political.

You may think it’s naive but you don’t really know where I was headed with my line of thought since I can’t say without violating the ROC here. I’m not naive.

 

[PeterNSteinmetz]

Not entirely. The recidivism rate is up...

I am also curious how the FAA concludes this is the case. Given the types of measures used and what appears to be their limited reliability, I would be somewhat surprised to see a study which is reliably able to conclude that the recidivism rates have changed over time. (A quick pubmed search does not show anything obvious.)

 

[wsuffa]

You may think it’s naive but you don’t really know where I was headed with my line of thought since I can’t say without violating the ROC here. I’m not naive.

Never said YOU were (I think just the contrary). Just that the comment - as it read - seemed naive. ANd yes, I did take it a bit out of context. We may be thinking along similar lines - but my thinking is more about "taking" as opposed to folks "giving".

Like you, I want to stay on the correct side of the RoC.

 

[MacFly]

Government over-reach at its finest. The take-away I hear all the time is "it's their sky". We should just be happy to be allowed to fly in it at all.

The reductio ad absurdum is that, if they don’t allow anyone to fly, the skies will be maximally safe. Approaching that phase in all aspects of life is the ultimate end-goal for any government. The FAA appears to have embraced the concept whole-heartedly,

 

[allPrimes]

After growing up from 20 yrs old and not even getting a parking ticket for the last 16 years, being sober for 5.5 on my own will and peeing in a cup for the last 3.5 yrs, if they want to mandate AA at this point, I shall happily return my medical. 5 more years of pee and annual psych doesn’t matter but the other requirements such as 2x week AA, now...makes zero sense.

We're on different sides, but have the same attitude: I haven't had so much as a parking ticket in >19 years either but would gladly take mandated twice/week AA meetings (as I already attend more than that) rather than UA and any sort of annual psych exam. Regardless, as I hope to have my medical sometime in the next several months, I plan on going basic med as quickly as possible.

 

[AKiss20]

Out of curiosity, does the FAA accept attendance of non-AA programs such as SMART? I have friends (non-pilots) who turned to that program over AA due to the religious association/aspect of AA.

 

[allPrimes]

Out of curiosity, does the FAA accept attendance of non-AA programs such as SMART? I have friends (non-pilots) who turned to that program over AA due to the religious association/aspect of AA.

No idea. I'd ask a HIMS AME.

AA has religious overtones, sure, but I think it's easy to look past them. A lot of old-timers, however, still insist on using Judeo-Christian dogma in their meetings and say "wah-wah-wah! but you don't know the history!" when I suggest dropping it. History, schmistory; AA isn't a religious program, unless you want it to be.

 

[ThatOtherGuy]

I shall happily return my medical. 5 more years of pee and annual psych doesn’t matter but the other requirements such as 2x week AA, now...makes zero sense.

Don't return it, just let it lapse then fly under BasicMed if that suits. Sounded like you're in the professional pool though, so that's a tough decision.

 

[ThatOtherGuy]

Out of curiosity, does the FAA accept attendance of non-AA programs such as SMART? I have friends (non-pilots) who turned to that program over AA due to the religious association/aspect of AA.

They have to take the official stance that AA isn't the only aftercare option due to numerous court rulings that AA is in fact a religious program. In practice they don't like anything other than AA, and it will probably make the airman's life more difficult. That said, there are instances of airmen in HIMS that use(d) alternatives to AA as part of their recovery program.

The same situation exists in the legal system. Supposedly you can't be forced into AA by a judge, but it still happens all the time. It's because they know the average person doesn't have the financial/time resources to fight the man.

 

[AKiss20]

No idea. I'd ask a HIMS AME.

Not at all relevant to me, so hardly going to go bother a HIMS AME to satisfy my curiosity, just figured someone on the board might know (as was correct given the below response).

They have to take the official stance that AA isn't the only aftercare option due to numerous court rulings that AA is in fact a religious program. In practice they don't like anything other than AA, and it will probably make the airman's life more difficult. That said, there are instances of airmen in HIMS that use(d) alternatives to AA as part of their recovery program.

The same situation exists in the legal system. Supposedly you can't be forced into AA by a judge, but it still happens all the time. It's because they know the average person doesn't have the financial/time resources to fight the man.

*sigh* yet another example of how the FAA aeromedical branch is stuck in 1955...

Thanks for the answer, curiosity satisfied.

 

[Capt H]

No idea. I'd ask a HIMS AME.

AA has religious overtones, sure, but I think it's easy to look past them. A lot of old-timers, however, still insist on using Judeo-Christian dogma in their meetings and say "wah-wah-wah! but you don't know the history!" when I suggest dropping it. History, schmistory; AA isn't a religious program, unless you want it to be.

Every single page has the "G" word on it. They call it a serenity "prayer" and what word does that start with? Several of the steps have the G word as well. Thats a lot more than overtones. Several appellate courts have held that it is indeed religious and not spiritual like they argued. They need to take their own advice and "accept" the program for what it really is and not try to mold it to appeal to everyone.

 

[allPrimes]

Every single page has the "G" word on it. They call it a serenity "prayer" and what word does that start with? Several of the steps have the G word as well. Thats a lot more than overtones. Several appellate courts have held that it is indeed religious and not spiritual like they argued. They need to take their own advice and "accept" the program for what it really is and not try to mold it to appeal to everyone.

Sure, from a legal standpoint, the argument has been made and accepted that AA is a religious program. The first time I read the blue book, I put a line through each "G" to indicate lower case because I was ardently opposed to participating in a "religious" program. I bristle when old-timers want to close a meeting with the "lord's prayer" from the new testament of the bible. Now I just don't care. I can ignore the religious aspect of it (but I won't say blatantly religious prayers). Others can't. There are also some people that would argue that the US is, fundamentally, a Judeo-Christian country, because of the "G" word in so many of the US' founding documents. I'd disagree there, too.

That governments require some people to attend AA is pretty crappy. AA isn't the only solution to sobriety and it's too bad that most levels of various government agencies and courts don't understand that.

 

[Palmpilot]

Sure, from a legal standpoint, the argument has been made and accepted that AA is a religious program. The first time I read the blue book, I put a line through each "G" to indicate lower case because I was ardently opposed to participating in a "religious" program. I bristle when old-timers want to close a meeting with the "lord's prayer" from the new testament of the bible. Now I just don't care. I can ignore the religious aspect of it (but I won't say blatantly religious prayers). Others can't. There are also some people that would argue that the US is, fundamentally, a Judeo-Christian country, because of the "G" word in so many of the US' founding documents. I'd disagree there, too.

That governments require some people to attend AA is pretty crappy. AA isn't the only solution to sobriety and it's too bad that most levels of various government agencies and courts don't understand that.

The government's requiring participation in it does seem like "an establishment of religion."

 

[allPrimes]

The fact that you are crossing out the backbone of a religious program means that you aren't even really doing it the way it was intended.

I disagree. I find solace and restoration in spiritual principles that are hugely different from worshipping any sort of religious deity. It works for me. Something else might work better for you and a whole host of other people. That’s cool. Go find it, go work it, and have a great life! I’m sorry that the gubmint hasn’t accepted it like it has AA.

 

[Capt H]

I disagree. I find solace and restoration in spiritual principles that are hugely different from worshipping any sort of religious deity. It works for me. Something else might work better for you and a whole host of other people. That’s cool. Go find it, go work it, and have a great life! I’m sorry that the gubmint hasn’t accepted it like it has AA.

Keep up the good work!!

 

[Capt H]

The government's requiring participation in it does seem like "an establishment of religion."

It most definitely is, according the the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. The problem is, that pilots will do anything for their medical, even throw away their civil rights and they know this.

 

[wsuffa]

It most definitely is, according the the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. The problem is, that pilots will do anything for their medical, even throw away their civil rights and they know this.

Close, and may be true for some, but I think it's a bit different than that.

Pilots are fighting both the Crown as well as Father Time. They know that the FAA has taken the position that it's a privilege to fly, and the FAA's grant of a medical is - essentially - discretionary. Meaning that the time involved in fighting this is years to go through all the appeals and end up at the USSC with a dollar cost that can be as much as 7-8 digits. FAA knows it, too. For revenue pilots, the clock ticks. For non-revenue pilots, the system is tilted toward revenue. Given the time and cost, the rational decision is to not try to fight the system (and if you're wealthy enough to do so, then you can afford to hire a pilot).

Now if an association were to pursue it, or enough money greased congress critters to pass a law changing that, it might be different. But neither of those is going to take a position that will be a target for those that claim it's an attempt to "decrease safety".

 

[flyingron]

Out of curiosity, does the FAA accept attendance of non-AA programs such as SMART? I have friends (non-pilots) who turned to that program over AA due to the religious association/aspect of AA.

That and the fact that it's totally ineffective.

 

[Capt H]

Close, and may be true for some, but I think it's a bit different than that.

Pilots are fighting both the Crown as well as Father Time. They know that the FAA has taken the position that it's a privilege to fly, and the FAA's grant of a medical is - essentially - discretionary. Meaning that the time involved in fighting this is years to go through all the appeals and end up at the USSC with a dollar cost that can be as much as 7-8 digits. FAA knows it, too. For revenue pilots, the clock ticks. For non-revenue pilots, the system is tilted toward revenue. Given the time and cost, the rational decision is to not try to fight the system (and if you're wealthy enough to do so, then you can afford to hire a pilot).

Now if an association were to pursue it, or enough money greased congress critters to pass a law changing that, it might be different. But neither of those is going to take a position that will be a target for those that claim it's an attempt to "decrease safety".

I agree with you that it is easier to "cooperate to graduate" than it is to try and do it your way. But, what if your way is better for you personally? Those who are in the HIMS program have to do so much documented work as it is, that requiring a religious support group where none is even allowed seems silly.

There aren't enough pilots affected for an association to throw large dollars at the issue, this is a small subset of the flying population. To say that the skies are safer because of this requirement is far-fetched. I'd rather have an airman in recovery working a program they are happy with and truly believe in, then one where they are forced into, uncomfortable and just going through the motions to appease others.

 

[wsuffa]

I agree with you that it is easier to "cooperate to graduate" than it is to try and do it your way. But, what if your way is better for you personally? Those who are in the HIMS program have to do so much documented work as it is, that requiring a religious support group where none is even allowed seems silly.

There aren't enough pilots affected for an association to throw large dollars at the issue, this is a small subset of the flying population. To say that the skies are safer because of this requirement is far-fetched. I'd rather have an airman in recovery working a program they are happy with and truly believe in, then one where they are forced into, uncomfortable and just going through the motions to appease others.

It doesn't have to make the skies safer. It just needs to make the public (and congress) feel safer.

 

[Jiuns]

At this point I scheduled a 1st class medical exam with my HIMS AME so he can defer it to OKC so they have a fresh one on file for when this cluster mess gets resolved. Exam - $350 (now I require an EKG being 35+) Also – Another $850 to continue my HIMS case since the $1500 initially paid was jut for a 3rd. (don’t get me started – it was for a 1st but this case is now “complex”) Back to the wait game at the FAA. At the end of August I receive another letter from the FAA – “We are sending your file to be reviewed by our external neuropsychological consultant”. Are you kidding me? The 3rd report was perfect!! Honeybadger don’t care I mean – FAA don’t care! Needless to say the report came back from the consultant within a few days clearing me of any “cognitive issues”. On Sept 11th – I called the deputy RFS I had met in Oshkosh and he said congrats – “my 3rd class special issuance was approved””for further 1st class consideration you need to go see a HIMS psychiatrist”. I was semi upset since the psych I had been seeing was extremely detailed (the chief psych at the FAA called him and is trying to recruit him to HIMS) and really wanted an exception – especially with my “incidents” causing this mess are now 16 & 15 years in my past. But I knew, they wouldn’t budge. I found a HIMS psych in Atlanta who was able to get me in on Monday the 16th but he needed a copy of my medical file. $1500 psych fee. By this point, I had made a contact at the FAA and now asked them for a favor for a 3rd time. I paid for the overnight and got him my file by Monday. $150 overnight fee. He finished he report on Tuesday the 24th and I asked, very nicely, for my regional office to upload it to the guy in charge of my case at OKC. I called my regional office on Friday the 27th for a status update (hilarious because they only got the report on Tuesday) but she said “I hope you’re sitting down because your 1st class Special Issuance has been authorized – congrats”. The only change is now they extended my special issuance through August 2021 – so there are 2 more psych visits on the horizon.




How Much??


Initial Psych (May 2016)- $3100

Psych 2 (Dec 2017)- $1060

Psych 3 (Dec 2018)- $1060

Initial HIMS AME (Aug 2017)- $1500

2017 Drug Screens - $70 each - $280

2018 Drug Screens - $840

2019 Drug Screens - $700 (so far)

NeuroPsychological Initial - $2650

Neuro 2nd - $350

Neuro 3rd - $1000

July, Jan, Aug AME visits - $850

AME HIMS extension - $850

Overnight Fees - $350

Atlanta Psych - $1500


Total Medical Related - $16,090


Total Instruction - $5,000

Total AvGas Burned - $30,224

Total Maintenance/Storage/Plane Costs - $31,754

Net Loss in selling plane with high time engine - $15,000


Going from 100 hours to 1509 - $81,978


From Revoked to soon to be at right seat at a regional - $98,068


Why the long story? 1st – Engage a professional who knows what they are doing especially in terms of paperwork, requirements, and tests so you stack the deck in your favor. It will also save you a lot of $$$. If there is a retainer to pay for them to give you the honest assessment of your case - pay it! Find someone proactive not reactive and listen to them. I would already be in the right seat at a regional if I engaged Dr. Chien vs my current HIMS AME (Dr. Fowler I haven't had the pleasure of meeting but I am sure is excellent). 2nd. If flying is your true passion, this process will stress the **** out of you. Be prepared to have methods in place to cope with the stress and a forward looking positive attitude that it will all work out. 3rd. Get quality sleep before any exam and just cancel it if you don’t 4th. PRAY 5th. NEVER give up. EVER


~~blue skies and tailwinds to all!

Wow your story gives me hope
Click to expand...
wow your story gives me hope. Back in 2016 my third class medical was denied because I was seeing a psychiatrist for anxiety and depression and disclosed some marijuana use here and there.I also got the letter asking for immediate drug test within 48 hours upon receiving letter, I passed it and did the whole psychiatrist evaluation but stopped the process there as it was going to cost me money, I decided to focus on finishing my bachelors in aeronautics and Plan on resuming the process this summer again. You mentioned I can’t change HIMS, will I be able to change mine or do I have to see the one from 2016? I would like to choose a better HIMS and really hope I’m not stuck with this one. If so I can’t change what are the steps I would have to go through to change HIMS legally?
Thank you!