Hey Delta peeps...

ChemGuy

ChemGuy

Cleared for Takeoff
Joined
Jun 27, 2013
Messages
1,279
Location
Dowagiac, MI
Display Name
Display name:
ChemGuy
Who makes the decision to not hold a plane when the inbounds are delayed? Is that base ops, scheduling or ???.

And what would that person's name or email for SLC be? I need to send them a candy gram for the wonderful service I had today. I will have plenty of time since I can't get to my final until tomorrow night.

And the best part is....we were on the tarmac at SLC. Waiting for a gate. For 50min. That's why most of the plane missed their connections.
 
Also delta guys...maybe not have your customer facing service people telling folks that "ATC" decides when a plane leaves and not Delta.

That was an interesting conversation until I told him yes I was a pilot and I've never had ATC tell me I had to leave.
 
ChemGuy said:
Who makes the decision to not hold a plane when the inbounds are delayed? Is that base ops, scheduling or ???.

And what would that person's name or email for SLC be? I need to send them a candy gram for the wonderful service I had today. I will have plenty of time since I can't get to my final until tomorrow night.

And the best part is....we were on the tarmac at SLC. Waiting for a gate. For 50min. That's why most of the plane missed their connections.
Click to expand...

Pilots never ever use the word “tarmac”...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
ChemGuy said:
Also delta guys...maybe not have your customer facing service people telling folks that "ATC" decides when a plane leaves and not Delta.

That was an interesting conversation until I told him yes I was a pilot and I've never had ATC tell me I had to leave.
Click to expand...
Yea.. that's kind of like gate agents saying 'Per FAA regulations you are only allowed one carry on bag and one smaller personal item'... ya, no. And all the airlines do it.


The FAA doesn't care how many bags somone carries on a plane, they mandate that items must be securely and safely stowed. The two carry on limit is an airline policy to try and be fare to all passengers and to prevent my wife from trying to put her entire closet in carry on for a two day trip .

The FAA would have no issue if an airline let one passenger fill all the over head bins and told all the others to check their bags.... Of course you may have to call security when the passengers start a riot when they are told this.
 
actually, they do care. the weight and balance program for the airline is FAA approved. it is based on weight the FAA comes up with for each passenger, and that weight assumes the number of bags the airline allows. so if they change the number of carry ons allowed the weight and balance program would have to be re-approved by the FAA.

now, as to ATC telling you when you can leave, apparently you do not fly your bugsmasher 90 into a flow controlled airport. when the FAA puts up flow control, you have a window to leave. if you don't leave in that window, you may not leave at all.
 
It’s when they say “TSA regulations allow only one carry-on...” that you know they’re just making stuff up. ;)
 
ChemGuy said:
Who makes the decision to not hold a plane when the inbounds are delayed? Is that base ops, scheduling or ???.
Click to expand...
That is done in station operations at each hub. I don't have specific knowledge on Delta's process but I've seen it at both AAL and UAL hubs. Delta's should be very similar.

Each hub has a person in its station operations center who's job it is to monitor connections, both the passengers and the bags. They coordinate with the aircraft routers, maintenance, crew scheduling, etc. to learn the impact that a hold would have downline and also customer service for reroute options for passengers and bags that misconnect. Each airline's philosophy may be a bit different as to how the hold/don't hold decision is made but it is made affirmatively, not left to chance. What is left to chance is how quickly connecting passengers move from their arrival gate to their departure gate. The holds are usually of a specific number of minutes. If some passengers aren't there in time they'll still be left behind.

Last year, UAL introduced new software that does a better job of gathering the data and suggesting when to hold and for how long. Early results had been very good at increasing the number of passengers who made their connections without incurring significant disruptions downline.

jrollf said:
Yea.. that's kind of like gate agents saying 'Per FAA regulations you are only allowed one carry on bag and one smaller personal item'... ya, no. And all the airlines do it.
Click to expand...
Each certificate holder (airline) is required to develop a carry-on baggage program. Once established, and accepted by the FAA, the regulations do require that the airline comply with their program. So FAA regulations do require compliance with the procedures that the airline has established.
 
Larry in TN said:
That is done in station operations at each hub. I don't have specific knowledge on Delta's process but I've seen it at both AAL and UAL hubs. Delta's should be very similar.

Each hub has a person in its station operations center who's job it is to monitor connections, both the passengers and the bags. They coordinate with the aircraft routers, maintenance, crew scheduling, etc. to learn the impact that a hold would have downline and also customer service for reroute options for passengers and bags that misconnect. Each airline's philosophy may be a bit different as to how the hold/don't hold decision is made but it is made affirmatively, not left to chance. What is left to chance is how quickly connecting passengers move from their arrival gate to their departure gate. The holds are usually of a specific number of minutes. If some passengers aren't there in time they'll still be left behind.

Last year, UAL introduced new software that does a better job of gathering the data and suggesting when to hold and for how long. Early results had been very good at increasing the number of passengers who made their connections without incurring significant disruptions downline.


Each certificate holder (airline) is required to develop a carry-on baggage program. Once established, and accepted by the FAA, the regulations do require that the airline comply with their program. So FAA regulations do require compliance with the procedures that the airline has established.
Click to expand...

Trust me, on Delta it’s all up to Dispatch. They are most powerful


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
Dispatch at Delta has zero to do with holding a flight. The decisions are made by OCC supervisors in ATL. They evaluate all the factors a delay might cause and pick the option that causes the least passenger disruptions. As a simple example delaying the last flight out of SLC to a outstation might seem a easy choice. That delay however might cause two flights at the outstation to leave late the next morning as the pilots and flight attendants might be working different outbounds and not meet rest requirements. Those late departures could cascade into other late flights miss connecting hundreds. It may be the crew on that last flight would time out that evening if the flight was held. It could be the pilots or flight attendants timing out. They will however often attempt to recrew in that situation if a delay is the best option. That can generate the dreaded crew reroute notices. It may however prove to be impossible to reroute or cover the flight with reserves even if a delay is desired. FAR 117 has made this far more difficult for airlines.
I am a bit surprised by your ATC comment since you’re a pilot. ATC often does decide when a flight leaves in the airline industry. In fact it’s so common it’s completely routine when weather is involved. I have sat at the gate hundreds of times on a ATC holds waiting for release. In addition to weather issues ATC holds can be caused by departure traffic saturation, Projected arrival airport saturation, nav aid failures, runway closures, ATC radar or comm outages and now we have ATC delays for positive Covid tests shutting a facility down for sanitation. You usually know a ATC hold is coming by the weather. When you know bad things are coming you send for the clearance as early as possible hoping not to see the dreaded ATC release 0200Z weather and your scheduled out at 2300Z. Even worse is ATC ground stop. Update at 0200Z. That means ATC won’t even give you a guess when they will release you until 0200Z.
 
Last edited:
ChemGuy said:
Who makes the decision to not hold a plane when the inbounds are delayed? Is that base ops, scheduling or ???.

And what would that person's name or email for SLC be? I need to send them a candy gram for the wonderful service I had today. I will have plenty of time since I can't get to my final until tomorrow night.

And the best part is....we were on the tarmac at SLC. Waiting for a gate. For 50min. That's why most of the plane missed their connections.
Click to expand...


I don't work For Delta. I do work for an airline of about 100 jets. To each passenger an issue like this is easy peasy to solve. Nobody considers the cascade of problems created by those “easy” solutions.

Our jets get held by ATC all the time. Sometimes they are held so long that there is not a gate available when it gets there. Holding the out bound A/C further holds up the arrivals.
 
unsafervguy said:
actually, they do care. the weight and balance program for the airline is FAA approved. it is based on weight the FAA comes up with for each passenger, and that weight assumes the number of bags the airline allows. so if they change the number of carry ons allowed the weight and balance program would have to be re-approved by the FAA.

now, as to ATC telling you when you can leave, apparently you do not fly your bugsmasher 90 into a flow controlled airport. when the FAA puts up flow control, you have a window to leave. if you don't leave in that window, you may not leave at all.
Click to expand...
Agree, weight and balance is estimated on total estimated carry on bags, usually assumed to be one overhead bag, and one smaller item... however the FAA could care less if Joe has 10 bags and the next 5 passengers have none, as long as the total works out. There is no regulation saying each passenger is limited to 2 items each, only the total must be in weight and balance limits.
 
I know there is things like slots and flow control, ATC holds, ground stops...etc that can affect the 121 guys and they dont like to cause down stream problems. But if the plane aint ready to leave it aint leaving no matter what ATC says. So you loose your slot your waiting. I get that. And i do not know if that existed today at SLC...but it sure didnt look that busy and the local weather was CAVU.

But in this instance I am talking about the inbound, sitting on the ramp/apron/parking/taxi way (whatever you want to call it) waiting for a gate. We finally did de-plane and that was before the scheduled departure. If someone would have held the Hub Bound outbound (SLC-DTW) for 5 minutes....10 max, a whole lot of people would have had a much better day and trip. Now all they will remember is that last time they flew Delta they sat on the ramp for 50 minutes and then missed their connections.
Honestly it was such a small amount of time we needed we probably could have made it up in the air.

I think its sad that with all the computers and automation used now hey cant, or dont want to, figure out how to hold a plane for a few minutes in situations like these.
 
jrollf said:
Agree, weight and balance is estimated on total estimated carry on bags, usually assumed to be one overhead bag, and one smaller item... however the FAA could care less if Joe has 10 bags and the next 5 passengers have none, as long as the total works out. There is no regulation saying each passenger is limited to 2 items each, only the total must be in weight and balance limits.
Click to expand...
i would suggest you read all the fars.

§ 121.589 Carry-on baggage.
(a) No certificate holder may allow the boarding of carry-on baggage on an airplane unless each passenger's baggage has been scanned to control the size and amount carried on board in accordance with an approved carry-on baggage program in its operations specifications. In addition, no passenger may board an airplane if his/her carry-on baggage exceeds the baggage allowance prescribed in the carry-on baggage program in the certificate holder's operations specifications.
 
ChemGuy said:
I know there is things like slots and flow control, ATC holds, ground stops...etc that can affect the 121 guys and they dont like to cause down stream problems. But if the plane aint ready to leave it aint leaving no matter what ATC says. So you loose your slot your waiting. I get that. And i do not know if that existed today at SLC...but it sure didnt look that busy and the local weather was CAVU.

But in this instance I am talking about the inbound, sitting on the ramp/apron/parking/taxi way (whatever you want to call it) waiting for a gate. We finally did de-plane and that was before the scheduled departure. If someone would have held the Hub Bound outbound (SLC-DTW) for 5 minutes....10 max, a whole lot of people would have had a much better day and trip. Now all they will remember is that last time they flew Delta they sat on the ramp for 50 minutes and then missed their connections.
Honestly it was such a small amount of time we needed we probably could have made it up in the air.

I think its sad that with all the computers and automation used now hey cant, or dont want to, figure out how to hold a plane for a few minutes in situations like these.
Click to expand...

it gets a bit more complicated. you need to look at the downstream effect of a 10 minute delay. if its in the morning it will propagate and grow as the day goes on. that plane may fly 9 legs that day and a delay works its way through the system and grows in number and size. 10 minutes may seem like nothing, but it extends the crew duty day, could cause crew legality problems, ive have had days that a 15 minute delay in the morning made my crew illegal buy the last leg. since the cockpit crew and cabin crew are not paired, it can cause scheduling issues down the road, it causes gate problems throughout the system for the entire day. it looks simple on the surface, but it is a very complex dance that goes on behind the scenes. sometimes they get it wrong, but they try to limit the impact on the operation as a whole and limit the effect on the number of passengers throughout the system as a whole.
 
ChemGuy said:
Also delta guys...maybe not have your customer facing service people telling folks that "ATC" decides when a plane leaves and not Delta.
Click to expand...
Its highly unlikely anyone reading this forum will have access to the ear of a Delta associate who is in a position to actually do something constructive with this feedback. Oh wait, you already knew that and were just posting to complain to no one in particular. Got it. Nevermind.
 
All of this just sounds like a problem with the scheduling and logistics system of all the 121ers. But hey, if it ain't fixed don't fix it.

"Race ya to the bottom!"
- every US carrier
 
EdFred said:
All of this just sounds like a problem with the scheduling and logistics system of all the 121ers. But hey, if it ain't fixed don't fix it.

"Race ya to the bottom!"
- every US carrier
Click to expand...

Or as likely the logical outcome of factors beyond the visibility or understanding of the original poster....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
EdFred said:
All of this just sounds like a problem with the scheduling and logistics system of all the 121ers. But hey, if it ain't fixed don't fix it.

"Race ya to the bottom!"
- every US carrier
Click to expand...

If you think you can do better, I'm sure someone would give you a shot at it...
 
This is a joke, right? Like the OP is trolling the board? Because it's literally every Private Pilot gets on an airliner meme. From telling the gate agent "in fact I am a pilot and I know ATC doesn't tell me when to leave" to "how can there be a slot time, the local weather was CAVU" and "the FAA doesn't tell you what you can bring on board."

Then doubling down when guys with 121 experience try to explain that, yes, in fact all these things do happen. Then those guys are just airline pilot apologists.

Is this a r/wooosh thing that I'm not in on?
 
So cute. Individual concerns in a land of masked people.

Your Delta Tau Chi name is Salmon, and your river has just been
'd!

Sorry, had to, Sluggo did that r/whoosh thing, which I had no idea, things escalated.
 
Still learning the hip pilot talk


“Tally ho - got him on the box - cabbage crate over the brinny - dickie birdie “.
 
unsafervguy said:
i would suggest you read all the fars.

§ 121.589 Carry-on baggage.
(a) No certificate holder may allow the boarding of carry-on baggage on an airplane unless each passenger's baggage has been scanned to control the size and amount carried on board in accordance with an approved carry-on baggage program in its operations specifications. In addition, no passenger may board an airplane if his/her carry-on baggage exceeds the baggage allowance prescribed in the carry-on baggage program in the certificate holder's operations specifications.
Click to expand...

Yes. The airlines decided how many you could have and then told the FAA what their number was and had wrote into their operations. But their operating agreement isn't the FARs. Ultimately, it is the airlines who decides the number.
 
bflynn said:
Yes. The airlines decided how many you could have and then told the FAA what their number was and had wrote into their operations. But their operating agreement isn't the FARs. Ultimately, it is the airlines who decides the number.
Click to expand...

but, but, but, that doesn't fit the narrative that it's always the FAA's fault when you talk to a 121er.
 
ChemGuy said:
That was an interesting conversation until I told him yes I was a pilot and I've never had ATC tell me I had to leave.
Click to expand...

Wait - you dropped the “I’m a pilot” on a gate agent ? I honestly didn’t think people did that.
 
WDD said:
Wait - you dropped the “I’m a pilot” on a gate agent ? I honestly didn’t think people did that.
Click to expand...
You're damn right I did. When he said soemthing to the affect of "ATC tells the plane when to leave and you should know that if you're such an aviation expert"

I then politely informed him I'm I was a pilot and ATC had never told me when I had to leave. Then he quit arguing and printed the hotel voucher for me as I wasn't paying for the hotel since they stranded us.

And it was a red coat at the help center. The GA had disappeared as is typical.right after the flight leaves
 
The issue here wasn't the plane leaving. The issue here is Delta screwing things up by not having an available gate when you arrived. That's not an FAA problem, that's not a flow control problem, that nothing except Delta not planning correctly.
 
Also just as an FYI...flight radar shows the flight yesterday landed 5 mins early.

So glad they couldn't wait for us.
 
EdFred said:
The issue here wasn't the plane leaving. The issue here is Delta screwing things up by not having an available gate when you arrived. That's not an FAA problem, that's not a flow control problem, that nothing except Delta not planning correctly.
Click to expand...
Yep.
And after that issue arose if they had held a plane or 2 for a few minutes a whole bunch of people wouldn't have had their travel ruined.

Of all the people from.my flight I saw at the help center we were the only ones who had to RON. Most only had another 4-5-6 hrs added to their day.

But hey at least the outbound landed early. So that helps them have something to talk about in the TV commercials.

-says the guy who remembers when they held planes and even saw them move a jet bridge back to the door...back in the day.
 
EdFred said:
but, but, but, that doesn't fit the narrative that it's always the FAA's fault when you talk to a 121er.
Click to expand...
See, again, that's not how it works.

14 CFR 121.133 said:
121.133 Preparation.
(a) Each certificate holder shall prepare and keep current a manual for the use and guidance of flight, ground operations, and management personnel in conducting its operations.

(b) For the purpose of this subpart, the certificate holder may prepare that part of the manual containing maintenance information and instructions, in whole or in part, in printed form or other form acceptable to the Administrator.
Click to expand...

Our FOM states (and I'm sure it's the same for all others):
FOM said:
1.01 PREFACE
(FAR 121.135, FAR 121.137, FAR 121.141, FAR 121.651)
This Flight Operations Manual (FOM) is one volume of the manuals required by Federal Aviation Regulations (FARs) Part 121 Subpart G. It includes instructions and information necessary for personnel involved with the operations of Generic Airlines aircraft to perform their duties and responsibilities with a high degree of safety.

Generic Airlines prepares and maintains its manual in several separate parts as permitted by FAR 121.135 (b). Operations conducted under its manual have been accepted or approved by the Generic Airlines Principal Operations Inspector (POI) as being in compliance with all pertinent regulatory source documents, including the FARs, FAA-approved airplane flight manuals, and Operations Specifications (Ops Specs).

Each employee is required to be thoroughly familiar with the content of this manual as it pertains to his area of responsibility. This manual must be accessible when performing assigned duties (FAR 121.137). Additionally, crewmembers and aircraft Dispatchers are charged with having a good working knowledge of all regulations pertinent to the exercise of their licenses and certificates.
When the POI signs off on the FOM, it becomes required by the FAA to apply and use it in the exact same manner as you would any of the other FARs. Ergo, if it's in the FOM, it is indeed required by the FAA.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Ok 1 last thought. If we had an EU style requirement to pay out cash if they delay you arriving more than 3 hours would the airlines be more open to waiting a few minutes?
Right now they only have to pony up for a hotel and some food...and even that is a maybe.
 
Sluggo63 said:
See, again, that's not how it works.



Our FOM states (and I'm sure it's the same for all others):
Click to expand...

Yes it does. It falls back on the airlines, because it's what THEY presented to the FAA as their procedures.

Imagine that I go into a checkride and I am able to determine for the most part the maneuvers and tolerances for the ride and I say "I want my standards to be this" (and they are stupid standards, like +/-5 feet). And I fail the checkride because I went +/-10 feet. It's not the examiners fault that I failed, I was the idiot that put myself in that situation.

Mean while ChemGuy says, I want my standards to be +/-200 , FAA says OK and he passes.

But you guys will point the finger and say nope, it was the FAA's fault that I failed the ride. No, that falls squarely on me. I wrote the book, I dug my grave.
 
Last edited:
You should head down to Louisiana and blow as hard as you can against the hurricane. You'll be more productive.
 
Whatever the case - sorry about your PIA flight / trip. I feel for ya - I'd be venting as well.


I don't know why airlines don't have an agreement to share gates when problems like this pop up - there has to be somebody with an empty gate that could accommodate an unloading and which wouldn't get in the way / disrupt their own schedules.

Charge the other carrier a premium - or keep track on the gate sharing, something.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top