Hershey Bar Cherokee sinks faster than Archer...

Hobobiker

Hobobiker

Line Up and Wait
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Hobo
Posting this in the training area since I'm a new pilot and just got to practice in the club plane for the first time solo last night. Having trained in an Archer with tapered wings, it was easy to drop power to idle after having the runway "made" and it would still tend to ease into ground effect and float down nicely. In fact, for those who read my thread on pursuing my license I even posted about fighting the "float" on landing. Last night I spent the evening just in the pattern to get a handle on how the club plane, a 1966 Hershey Bar winged Cherokee, likes to land. I noticed that, for me anyway, it likes a little more power during landing (1000-1200 rpm or so) and also doesn't pay as much attention to ground effect. In fact, it seemed like it just preferred to drop right through ground effect altogether, which I finally realized around my 2nd or 3rd landing. I had some nice stall-light landings before I took her back to the barn, but she definitely handled a little different than the Archer where I spent about 68 hours of my training time. (I broke 70 hours last nigh...WooHoo!)

No real question here other than to post for other students an example of two similar planes handling a bit differently. An hour or two of transition time and it should be the "new" normal...
 
Interesting! So far I've done all my flying in 1 plane. I'm eager to try out some other types.
 
evapilotaz said:
Is this the 180 Cherokee you just purchased?
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It's the flying club I bought into, yes. Took me about 6 trips around the pattern last night to find out what the plane liked best. Nothing like the plane teaching it's pilot. LOL
 
Does anyone have pics of the Hershey bar vs tapered wing? I've never really understood the difference.
 
MichiPilot said:
Does anyone have pics of the Hershey bar vs tapered wing? I've never really understood the difference.
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The Hershey bar is rectangular plan form like an RV. The tapered wing looks like a Cezzna wing (172, 182, etc.) but not as blunt on the leading edge.
 
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MichiPilot said:
Does anyone have pics of the Hershey bar vs tapered wing? I've never really understood the difference.
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I don't have access to a hershey bar Cherokee, but if you're sinking through ground effect, I'd suspect your approach speed is a bit slow or you're flaring high. It's a different airframe, and I'd suspect different stall speeds, different approach speeds, and so on.
 
No doubt it sinks faster, I was surprised on the first flight with mine. What is your approach speed? I shoot for 75 mph and land with a little power like you said.
 
MAKG1 said:
I don't have access to a hershey bar Cherokee, but if you're sinking through ground effect, I'd suspect your approach speed is a bit slow or you're flaring high. It's a different airframe, and I'd suspect different stall speeds, different approach speeds, and so on.
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Thanks for the input, and I'm sure it's not as pronounced as I made it out to be but the Cherokee definitely doesn't float as much as the Archer did for me. Just my first time "learning" a different aircraft. As for the speeds, I've studied the POH's for both and the only real difference in the literature I've found is the best glide speed. 70kts for the Cherokee and 75kts for the Archer. Stall speed, Vx, Vy, and most others are about the same.

Since not many other club members fly her, I'm going up again tonight on a XC to practice more with the Garmin 650 and do pattern work at a shorter runway...
 
There are some other subtle differences between the "old" and "new" wings.

The constant-chord "Hershey-bar" wing (so named because of its resemblance to the shape of the candy bar) had the same airfoil from root to tip -- though there was a slight "twist" flattening out the angle of incidence progressively toward the wingtip (you can see it if you stand at the wingtip and look down the rows of rivets toward the fuselage).

The tapered wing is identical to the Hersey-bar from the root out to the outboard end of the flap. From there it tapers in chord from both the leading and trailing edges, and tapers in thickness (so it's technically "semi-tapered"). The airfoil in the outer panels progressively changes as well. As you go out toward the tip the leading edge becomes more rounded, blunt and slightly drooped, which reduces drag at high angles of attack (other manufacturers made similar changes to some models in the early 1970s).

The old Cherokee 180 had a wingspan of 30 feet and wing area of 160 sq.ft.; the taper-wing Archer II's span is 35 feet, and area of 170 sq.ft.

Hobobiker said:
the Cherokee definitely doesn't float as much as the Archer did for me.
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All else being equal, a longer, thinner wing will glide better than a shorter, wider one, and a tapering wing is more efficient.

By the way, the model nomenclature gets a little confusing. In the last two years of the "Hershey-bar" wing (1974-75), the 180-hp model was called "Cherokee Archer". The tapered wing came out for the 1976 model, which was called "Cherokee Archer II"; and the "Cherokee" part of the name was dropped after 1977.
 
airdale said:
Yup. Wait 'till you try a Hershey-bar Cherokee Six. Pull the throttle and you'd swear you were flying a manhole cover!
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On engine out 180's abeam the numbers in my Lance, it will just barely make the runway. And that's with an immediate turn to the runway as soon as the power is pulled.
 
Sam D said:
On engine out 180's abeam the numbers in my Lance, it will just barely make the runway. And that's with an immediate turn to the runway as soon as the power is pulled.
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You have a CS prop that the OP doesn't. Try pulling the prop after pulling the power.
 
airdale said:
Yup. Wait 'till you try a Hershey-bar Cherokee Six. Pull the throttle and you'd swear you were flying a manhole cover!
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I almost lost one years ago on a long final. I was used to a mooney. Caught it just in time. Flying brick.
 
Meh....I had a Six for a few years and now have a V35A.....the Bo is a tad better in glide, but not by much. :eek:

Cessnas will glide noticeably better.....from my recollection:rolleyes:.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
I almost lost one years ago on a long final. I was used to a mooney. Caught it just in time. Flying brick.
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ROFL. Yes, definitely not a Mooney. But you can carry adults in a Six! :)
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
Meh....I had a Six for a few years and now have a V35A.....the Bo is a tad better in glide, but not by much. :eek:

Cessnas will glide noticeably better.....from my recollection:rolleyes:.
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Flaps up or flaps down? The Cessnas seem to have a lot of drag once the power is pulled. . . .
 
brian];1584872 said:
Flaps up or flaps down? The Cessnas seem to have a lot of drag once the power is pulled. . . .
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flaps up....gear up......:dunno:
 
brian];1584887 said:
Sorry, misread your post. I don't have as much time in the pipers, but my time in the cessnas left me with the felling I was flying a brick.
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Cessnas glide night and day compared with a Cherokee....and especially the Six...aka powered man hole cover. :D
 
Modified wing tips (Hoener?) seemed to help the hershey bar thumper landing characteristic.
 
I fly a 1964 235. The glide ratio is something like 7:1, so yeah...like flying a manhole cover with the power out. :) Even a bit worse with the 235 vs the 180 I'd imagine with the bigger engine sitting out front. The 540 weighs in at ~450lbs which is almost 1/3 of the empty weight all sitting up front.
 
brian];1584887 said:
Sorry, misread your post. I don't have as much time in the pipers, but my time in the cessnas left me with the felling I was flying a brick.
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With gear down, full flaps and 80 knots I call it space shuttle mode.
 
airdale said:
Yup. Wait 'till you try a Hershey-bar Cherokee Six. Pull the throttle and you'd swear you were flying a manhole cover!
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Clark1961 said:
Hey now! That's called safe glide mode...meaning it glides like a safe.
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That's what my CFI called the glide characteristics of the 1969 Arrow in our club. "Safe mode glide". Pull the power at 1000 AGL on downwind and you turn for the runway NOW. Drop the gear on short final and you will make it. Drop the gear earlier and all bets are off.

I will say one good thing for that plane. I have never bounced a landing. When the mains touch down it is finished flying. Now, I have had some arrivals that I am sure showed up on local seismographs. Rugged landing gear is a plus on that plane. :D
 
We called it the brick maneuver in the flight school's Arrow. Flying back home at night after a 3hr XC with my CFI to pick up my sister at college, we kind of forgot to descend from cruise. We were at 7500 and like 15 miles from the airport. Time to make like a brick down to the pattern. And we did. With very little effort.
 
Ghery said:
Now, I have had some arrivals that I am sure showed up on local seismographs. Rugged landing gear is a plus on that plane. :D
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The 'kota will drop like that too when ya get a little on the slow side. I deposited the aircraft on the runway from about three feet one dark and stormy night...it didn't bounce...and I kept the nose up with that big-ol'-stab...but it wasn't much fun.

Of course Bob, et.al. saw me drop it onto the Minam Lodge but that one was just a short field landing. :D and we put all the parts back on... :D
 
Ghery said:
That's what my CFI called the glide characteristics of the 1969 Arrow in our club. "Safe mode glide".
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Our chief pilot at the flight school at LGB in the early '70s said that our American Yankees "glide like a typewriter."

Then there's the "crowbar approach":
1. Grasp crowbar in one hand.
2. Open window/canopy with the other.
3. Throw crowbar out the window/canopy.
4. Chop power.
5. Follow crowbar.
​
 
My 68' Cherokee with the Hershey Bar wings sinks like a rock when I pull the power out.. The 76' I flew for training did the same but not as much (tapered wing)
 
I was told a while back that when you're in an acrobatic biplane and the engine dies, you determine your emergency landing site by dropping a grand piano out the window.
 
Coming down fast is actually useful. You can get into the very start of the runway over the trees.
 
Speaking of flying bricks, my cousin flew a powered hang glider with a notoriously fragile engine. Since it was impossible to start in the air, Shawn advised that as soon as the engine stopped it was vital to look straight down. Because that was where you were landing.
 
Pilawt said:
The old Cherokee 180 had a wingspan of 30 feet and wing area of 160 sq.ft.; the taper-wing Archer II's span is 35 feet, and area of 170 sq.ft.
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That's a big part of it. Short winged airplanes have a steeper glide. The tip vortices do that, by flowing over the tip and destroying lift on a portion of the outboard wing. Compare the glide of a Tri-Pacer or Colt to that of a Super Cub or Citabria.
 
I went from an Archer to a Piper Lance which is a jumbo(heavier) hershey bar wing Cherokee basically. If you chop power on short final in that bird you will drop so hard you'll be inspecting the gear on landing. I've quickly learned to err on the side of being a bit too high on final- that situation will just about fix it's self.
 
BubbbaBighatt said:
Speaking of flying bricks, my cousin flew a powered hang glider with a notoriously fragile engine. Since it was impossible to start in the air, Shawn advised that as soon as the engine stopped it was vital to look straight down. Because that was where you were landing.
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You talk like it hasn't been 8 years since flying bricks was brought up
 
I have been lucky to fly my buddys cherokee and now his arrow and land them. He called it a flying brick also. Definitely different than the 172.
Just like Hobobiker said, I didn't pull all the power until the wheels were on the runway.
 
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