Help with Vet friend

spiderweb

spiderweb

Final Approach
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Ben
I have a lot of friends who are vets, but this gentleman is vet who was stationed in Kuwait, and has told me tales which curdle the blood. I'm not a psychologist, but from talking with my psychologist brother about my friend (keeping his name private, of course), it seems likely he has bad PTSD. His wife asked him, in front of me, if he had killed anyone, and he hesitated and said no--sounded like he was trying to spare her the truth. For the past few years, he hasn't even looked for a job. He's an occasional drug and alcohol user (perhaps abuser), and he doesn't engage well with others. Recently, he's been doing better since I brought him to our religious study group; but as his friend, I'd appreciate any advice. I'm not a veteran, but I have friends and family who are--just no one aside from him who has seen real war.
 
Was he in Kuwait during the first gulf war or Iraq II time frame? There is a big difference.
 
if your friend is eligible for VA benefits, has filed and is receiving them, there isn't much you can do except encourage him to take advantage of the benefits. PTSD is different for everyone, maybe just being a good friend is all you should be doing.

I really hesitate to say this, but whatever your friends issue is may just be an excuse that helps rationalize the alcohol/drug use.

I'll second @Radar Contact in that Kuwait in 98 and forward was vastly different then in 92.
 
Sounds like he needs a break away from the woman, maybe find a new one, but a nice long outdoors adventure would probably help, hike some mountains or something, just ground and zen the F' out.
 
TCABM said:
if your friend is eligible for VA benefits, has filed and is receiving them, there isn't much you can do except encourage him to take advantage of the benefits. PTSD is different for everyone, maybe just being a good friend is all you should be doing.

I really hesitate to say this, but whatever your friends issue is may just be an excuse that helps rationalize the alcohol/drug use.

I'll second @Radar Contact in that Kuwait in 98 and forward was vastly different then in 92.
Click to expand...
I think you are right in that alcohol and drug use always involves excuses. It's just that some excuses might be better than others. I don't know if he is or how he might be using his VA benefits
 
James331 said:
Sounds like he needs a break away from the woman, maybe find a new one, but a nice long outdoors adventure would probably help, hike some mountains or something, just ground and zen the F' out.
Click to expand...
The only thing I worry about is that he's already so quiet and unemotional, I'm not sure that he needs to be more Zen. But I really like your idea about maybe going hiking or something. And of course he's actually said he'd like to try flying with me at some point
 
There's always being straight up and just asking the dude, "Hey, is everything alright? Anything you want to talk about? Because, your my friend and I worry about x/y/z for you".

@spiderweb, you may not be able to help, but you can help him find the help he might need.
 
VA if eligible but to many are just put on drugs and get strung out....an alternative we have locally http://ptsdusa.org/camp-hope/mba aside from that...just serving in Kuwait inherently probably safer than stateside statistically as its a controlled environment with limited intoxicants...the Army met a milestone during Desert Storm/Shield as the safest year to be a soldier as alcohol was taken away and lost fewer soldiers to accidents on and off base. The behavior may or may not be related. MOS would tell the tale...
 
As others have alluded to, there wasn't jack going on in Kuwait during OIF. If he had an MOS that routinely ventured north of the border though, then that definitely could have caused his PTSD.

Plenty of VA help out there, he just needs to reach out for it. They have a lot of meetings for vets suffering from PTSD. Even the local VFW will have combat vets that gather and can talk of their experiences. Fortunately, if he has PTSD, his VA check (100 % disabled), will tide him over until he's ready to go back to work. Hopefully he'll kick the booze and get back to living life.
 
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spiderweb said:
I have a lot of friends who are vets, but this gentleman is vet who was stationed in Kuwait, and has told me tales which curdle the blood. I'm not a psychologist, but from talking with my psychologist brother about my friend (keeping his name private, of course), it seems likely he has bad PTSD. His wife asked him, in front of me, if he had killed anyone, and he hesitated and said no--sounded like he was trying to spare her the truth. For the past few years, he hasn't even looked for a job. He's an occasional drug and alcohol user (perhaps abuser), and he doesn't engage well with others. Recently, he's been doing better since I brought him to our religious study group; but as his friend, I'd appreciate any advice. I'm not a veteran, but I have friends and family who are--just no one aside from him who has seen real war.
Click to expand...

A drug called prazosin seems to work well for the guys coming back from the sandbox who have PTSD. It tames the flashbacks and nightmares. They still need to work through the trauma, but at least they get remission of the worst symptoms while they do it.

I also have a friend in Canada who has severe PTSD from other causes. His case was so severe that he wound up in the hospital for over a month. His days were endless flashbacks and his nights endless nightmares. I suggested he ask his shrink about prazosin. The shrink read up on it and decided to give it a try, and the results were remarkable. Within a week, he enjoyed near-complete remission of the PTSD symptoms. He's now out of the hospital and looking for work. Anyone who'd like to send him a few bucks to help out until he finds a job, please PM me.

Prazosin's label-approved uses are for hypertension and prostate enlargement. Using it for PTSD is an off-label use, but a very common one at VA facilities and other places that treat a lot of PTSD cases. It reduces norepinephrine levels, which seem to be linked to the nightmares and flashbacks.

Interestingly, prazosin does nothing for nightmares not resulting from PTSD.

I am not a doctor.

Rich
 
As a pastor, and an Air Force vet, I work with a lot of vets. Here is my advice:
This is not going to be a quick fix.
Keep him engaged, for the long haul.
Find him an "off campus" vets group to hang out with. (I do a weekly "Pastor in the Diner" for vets in general, and a monthly "Pastor in the Diner - Vietnam Vets")
Get him to the VA. Don't take "No" for an answer.
When you get him to the VA, don't let the VA give you a run around. The politicians and bureaucrats talk a good game, but the bottom line is they would rather not have to actually do anything for anyone.
Dig in and get stubborn.
Ask for everything in writing.
There are some good people at the VA hospitals I deal with, but you have to find out who they are.

It's good he is going to a Bible Study. If you need any materials specific for vets, contact me.
This next part is not open for discussion. Period.
Your friend needs to know, unequivocally, that he is not some irredeemable sinner because he was in combat. The Bible is VERY clear about this. In the eyes of God, theologically, morally, ethically, he is NOT responsible for any killing or destruction he was involved in while under orders. That responsibility falls on his non-comms and officers and ultimately ends up in the Oval Officer.
If anyone, especially the pastor, EVER tells him he must repent for what he did, you punch that pastor in the face, then contact me. I will personally end his career.
I've seen more damage done by holier than thou azzholes than was ever done in combat.
 
Shepherd said:
As a pastor, and an Air Force vet, I work with a lot of vets. Here is my advice:
This is not going to be a quick fix.
Keep him engaged, for the long haul.
Find him an "off campus" vets group to hang out with. (I do a weekly "Pastor in the Diner" for vets in general, and a monthly "Pastor in the Diner - Vietnam Vets")
Get him to the VA. Don't take "No" for an answer.
When you get him to the VA, don't let the VA give you a run around. The politicians and bureaucrats talk a good game, but the bottom line is they would rather not have to actually do anything for anyone.
Dig in and get stubborn.
Ask for everything in writing.
There are some good people at the VA hospitals I deal with, but you have to find out who they are.

It's good he is going to a Bible Study. If you need any materials specific for vets, contact me.
This next part is not open for discussion. Period.
Your friend needs to know, unequivocally, that he is not some irredeemable sinner because he was in combat. The Bible is VERY clear about this. In the eyes of God, theologically, morally, ethically, he is NOT responsible for any killing or destruction he was involved in while under orders. That responsibility falls on his non-comms and officers and ultimately ends up in the Oval Officer.
If anyone, especially the pastor, EVER tells him he must repent for what he did, you punch that pastor in the face, then contact me. I will personally end his career.
I've seen more damage done by holier than thou azzholes than was ever done in combat.
Click to expand...

I've found Castle Point to be kind of a mess. Albany's not bad. It seems to help if the vet gets regular medical care at a CBOC. I guess the primary docs can pull strings and cut red tape when they need to.

Rich
 
I dunno. Some of us get over it, some of us don't.
 
Unfortunately, some don't have it and claim they do. The problem is, you can't prove one way or the other if someone is affected by PTS.

Pros know how to find the trigger event and address the behaviors resulting from the PTS, whether chemically, organically, or behaviorally.
 
RJM62 said:
I've found Castle Point to be kind of a mess. Albany's not bad. It seems to help if the vet gets regular medical care at a CBOC. I guess the primary docs can pull strings and cut red tape when they need to.

Rich
Click to expand...

I use Castle Point and it has been a mess with all the construction. It's getting better.
 
TCABM said:
Unfortunately, some don't have it and claim they do. The problem is, you can't prove one way or the other if someone is affected by PTS.

Pros know how to find the trigger event and address the behaviors resulting from the PTS, whether chemically, organically, or behaviorally.
Click to expand...

Exactly. Three grand tax free a month is hard to pass up. They're out there. Know a few personally.

http://burnpit.us/2014/08/fraudulent-ptsd-claims-clogging-system-stealing-those-who-need-help
 
Velocity173 said:
Exactly. Three grand tax free a month is hard to pass up. They're out there. Know a few personally.

http://burnpit.us/2014/08/fraudulent-ptsd-claims-clogging-system-stealing-those-who-need-help
Click to expand...

As do I. My last command I had an individual playing the system. I had all the evidence to support an Admin discharge and this card got played. No kidding 15 months later and it's a medical discharge, the member had been receiving SSDI since he was no longer physically qualified to do the job on active duty and had incentive pays discontinued. Had his wife driving him to work everyday b/c it was too stressful, a dog that crapped everywhere in the bldg, and was spent 3 days/week "practicing" with the wheel chair volleyball team as "PT".

Never saw the system so badly abused.
 
Velocity173 said:
As others have alluded to, there wasn't jack going on in Kuwait during OIF. If he had an MOS that routinely ventured north of the border though, then that definitely could have caused his PTSD.

Plenty of VA help out there, he just needs to reach out for it. They have a lot of meetings for vets suffering from PTSD. Even the local VFW will have combat vets that gather and can talk of their experiences. Fortunately, if he has PTSD, his VA check (100 % disabled), will tide him over until he's ready to go back to work. Hopefully he'll kick the booze and get back to living life.
Click to expand...
Thanks.

He did tell me he did go out on several missions north of the border. He had friends killed by IEDs and said the RPG fire was so common that he "just got used to it."
 
RJM62 said:
A drug called prazosin seems to work well for the guys coming back from the sandbox who have PTSD. It tames the flashbacks and nightmares. They still need to work through the trauma, but at least they get remission of the worst symptoms while they do it.

I also have a friend in Canada who has severe PTSD from other causes. His case was so severe that he wound up in the hospital for over a month. His days were endless flashbacks and his nights endless nightmares. I suggested he ask his shrink about prazosin. The shrink read up on it and decided to give it a try, and the results were remarkable. Within a week, he enjoyed near-complete remission of the PTSD symptoms. He's now out of the hospital and looking for work. Anyone who'd like to send him a few bucks to help out until he finds a job, please PM me.

Prazosin's label-approved uses are for hypertension and prostate enlargement. Using it for PTSD is an off-label use, but a very common one at VA facilities and other places that treat a lot of PTSD cases. It reduces norepinephrine levels, which seem to be linked to the nightmares and flashbacks.

Interestingly, prazosin does nothing for nightmares not resulting from PTSD.

I am not a doctor.

Rich
Click to expand...
Thanks, Rich.
 
Shepherd said:
As a pastor, and an Air Force vet, I work with a lot of vets. Here is my advice:
This is not going to be a quick fix.
Keep him engaged, for the long haul.
Find him an "off campus" vets group to hang out with. (I do a weekly "Pastor in the Diner" for vets in general, and a monthly "Pastor in the Diner - Vietnam Vets")
Get him to the VA. Don't take "No" for an answer.
When you get him to the VA, don't let the VA give you a run around. The politicians and bureaucrats talk a good game, but the bottom line is they would rather not have to actually do anything for anyone.
Dig in and get stubborn.
Ask for everything in writing.
There are some good people at the VA hospitals I deal with, but you have to find out who they are.

It's good he is going to a Bible Study. If you need any materials specific for vets, contact me.
This next part is not open for discussion. Period.
Your friend needs to know, unequivocally, that he is not some irredeemable sinner because he was in combat. The Bible is VERY clear about this. In the eyes of God, theologically, morally, ethically, he is NOT responsible for any killing or destruction he was involved in while under orders. That responsibility falls on his non-comms and officers and ultimately ends up in the Oval Officer.
If anyone, especially the pastor, EVER tells him he must repent for what he did, you punch that pastor in the face, then contact me. I will personally end his career.
I've seen more damage done by holier than thou azzholes than was ever done in combat.
Click to expand...
Thanks so much! It really helps to know all this.
 
Shepherd said:
The Bible is VERY clear about this. In the eyes of God, theologically, morally, ethically, he is NOT responsible for any killing or destruction he was involved in while under orders. That responsibility falls on his non-comms and officers and ultimately ends up in the Oval Officer.
Click to expand...

This kind of thing usually elicits many snarky comments. I think a lot of regular posters are biting their tongues!:)
Interesting comment though, that somewhere the counseling focuses on getting those with PTSD to repent of their actions.
 
Shepherd said:
Your friend needs to know, unequivocally, that he is not some irredeemable sinner because he was in combat. The Bible is VERY clear about this. In the eyes of God, theologically, morally, ethically, he is NOT responsible for any killing or destruction he was involved in while under orders. That responsibility falls on his non-comms and officers and ultimately ends up in the Oval Officer.
If anyone, especially the pastor, EVER tells him he must repent for what he did, you punch that pastor in the face, then contact me. I will personally end his career.
I've seen more damage done by holier than thou azzholes than was ever done in combat.
Click to expand...

Thank you for bringing this up.

Long story short, my life and attitude improved after I got away from this guy.
 
Cooter said:
This kind of thing usually elicits many snarky comments. I think a lot of regular posters are biting their tongues!:)
Interesting comment though, that somewhere the counseling focuses on getting those with PTSD to repent of their actions.
Click to expand...

My concern is with idiot, self serving, draft dodging, service avoiding priests and theologians who exalt their weakness/cowardice by attacking people who serve and try to make them feel guilty about it.
It happened to me when I got back home after my time in the Air Force.
In the last 20 years (since I was ordained) I have gone after 7 religious leaders who have attacked or tried to preach against combat veterans. I file charges with their hierarchy, they are required to respond, and I have never lost a theological argument on this subject. They have to make a very public apology to the members of their congregations, and to the servicemen and families they have offended, or they get defrocked. Most quit their calling after confessing their sin publicly.
Seven trials, seven scalps.
And you thought pastors were all sweetness and light, didn't you?
 
Velocity173 said:
Exactly. Three grand tax free a month is hard to pass up. They're out there. Know a few personally.

http://burnpit.us/2014/08/fraudulent-ptsd-claims-clogging-system-stealing-those-who-need-help
Click to expand...

Unfortunately too much fraud going on and this really hurts the servicemen who really need it. I served for 7 years so I saw those who gamed the system. They claim disabilities and avoided work. Ringing in the ears, back pain, etc. The one I knew well hurt his back jumping into a swimming pool and claimed disbility! Twenty years later he was still fit enough to ride a snowmobile for 300 miles a day!
 
Shepherd said:
My concern is with idiot, self serving, draft dodging, service avoiding priests and theologians who exalt their weakness/cowardice by attacking people who serve and try to make them feel guilty about it.
It happened to me when I got back home after my time in the Air Force.
In the last 20 years (since I was ordained) I have gone after 7 religious leaders who have attacked or tried to preach against combat veterans. I file charges with their hierarchy, they are required to respond, and I have never lost a theological argument on this subject. They have to make a very public apology to the members of their congregations, and to the servicemen and families they have offended, or they get defrocked. Most quit their calling after confessing their sin publicly.
Seven trials, seven scalps.
And you thought pastors were all sweetness and light, didn't you?
Click to expand...

The title of Pastor covers a more broad spectrum than it used to, so I'm not overly surprised.:) In fact, at a the hospital today the nurse attending to me was a pastor! I live in the mid-west where most of the pastors are the flag waving type, so I haven't encountered any of the type you mention. But it doesn't surprise me. It also wouldn't surprise me if it was found even in the Chaplain's corps. Although I've had mostly good experiences with them myself. Especially right after 9/11, a lot of patriotic pastors joined the ranks. Do you mind sharing into which denomination you were ordained?
 
I'm ordained in the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod.
Unfortunately, a lot of guys from my generation went into the Seminary to avoid the Vietnam draft. They justify themselves by talking down to guys who served.
 
Cooter said:
The title of Pastor covers a more broad spectrum than it used to, so I'm not overly surprised.:) In fact, at a the hospital today the nurse attending to me was a pastor! I live in the mid-west where most of the pastors are the flag waving type, so I haven't encountered any of the type you mention. But it doesn't surprise me. It also wouldn't surprise me if it was found even in the Chaplain's corps. Although I've had mostly good experiences with them myself. Especially right after 9/11, a lot of patriotic pastors joined the ranks. Do you mind sharing into which denomination you were ordained?
Click to expand...

What the heck you doing in the hospital? Vasectomy I hope. :D
 
It really bothers me that his wife thought it was OK to ask him that. Why do people think it's even remotely acceptable to ask a vet if they have killed someone? That is no one's business.

I had a boyfriend for a couple years... a Marine who had just come back from Iraq. I never asked him any questions about what he did or saw overseas, but made sure he understood I was there if he ever needed to vent or talk about it. He opened up to me once about some of what he had to see and do... my God, I won't even repeat a fraction of it as it's something I haven't gotten out of my head since. I just remember this one awful night... we went to a Halloween party and some guys, who had never served (we were all young... mid to late twenties, btw) were dressed up as dead soldiers. He handled it well for a bit, but at some point I heard one of them ask him how many people he had killed... his whole demeanor changed. These were guys who had known him before he went to war and should have known better. Anyway, I quickly changed the topic and shortly after that he said he wanted to leave. As we were driving away, they pulled out fake guns and pretended to shoot at him. It's like they were so disconnected from the fact that war is a reality for some... not just a video game or whatnot. His face... :(

I get that you care and want to help. But unless he has asked for your help, as a civilian who hasn't been there/done that, I'd proceed delicately. Best way to be there for someone who has been in the front lines is to be their friend. Don't pry. Make sure they know you are there if they want to talk. If they want to open up, they will. Now if you feel he is a danger to himself or others, that's a different story.
 
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Cajun_Flyer said:
It really bothers me that his wife thought it was OK to ask him that. Why do people think it's even remotely acceptable to ask a vet if they have killed someone? That is no one's business.

I had a boyfriend for a couple years... a Marine who had just come back from Iraq. I never asked him any questions about what he did or saw overseas, but made sure he understood I was there if he ever needed to vent or talk about it. He opened up to me once about some of what he had to see and do... my God, I won't even repeat a fraction of it as it's something I haven't gotten out of my head since. I just remember this one awful night... we went to a Halloween party and some guys, who had never served (we were all young... mid to late twenties, btw) were dressed up as dead soldiers. He handled it well for a bit, but at some point I heard one of them ask him how many people he had killed... his whole demeanor changed. These were guys who had known him before he went to war and should have known better. Anyway, I quickly changed the topic and shortly after that he said he wanted to leave. As we were driving away, they pulled out fake guns and pretended to shoot at him. It's like they were so disconnected from the fact that war is a reality for some... not just a video game or whatnot. His face... :(

I get that you care and want to help. But unless he has asked for your help, as a civilian who hasn't been there/done that, I'd proceed delicately. Best way to be there for someone who has been in the front lines is to be their friend. Don't pry. Make sure they know you are there if they want to talk. If they want to open up, they will. Now if you feel he is a danger to himself or others, that's a different story.
Click to expand...

This. All of it. No combat here but number of friends who have been there.

I was also kinda shocked that she asked in front of you. There's something else going on there and she's either trying to figure it out or wants him to get help, so she's pushing him with inappropriate questions in front of friends as a "help me" signal to you and a "you're ****ing me off" signal to him.

Tread lightly but directly offer to be there for anything he needs. Professional help is needed. And it may not just be for him. She may need someone to talk to about his behavioral changes if she's willing to blurt that out in front of mutual friend(s). That's not a topic you bring up out of the blue at dinner parties unless you're desperate yourself. I suspect she needs him to get help and needs to learn coping mechanisms for her frustration with him if he doesn't want to.
 
I have no problem with a wife asking a husband ANYTHING. My only problem with that particular incident was that she asked in front of me--which I thought inappropriate.

I don't need to get him to open up about the Army and war--he talks about it a lot. Next time it comes up naturally, I'll suggest the VA.
 
spiderweb said:
I have no problem with a wife asking a husband ANYTHING. My only problem with that particular incident was that she asked in front of me--which I thought inappropriate.
Click to expand...

I can ask my husband whatever I want, sure. And he'd answer open and honestly. But I respect him too much to invade privacy on certain issues that really are not my business. Satisfaction of morbid curiosity isn't worth it to me.

Different folks, different strokes and all.

Definitely inappropriate for her to ask him that in front of others though.
 
Cajun_Flyer said:
I can ask my husband whatever I want, sure. And he'd answer open and honestly. But I respect him too much to invade privacy on certain issues that really are not my business. Satisfaction of morbid curiosity isn't worth it to me.

Different folks, different strokes and all.

Definitely inappropriate for her to ask him that in front of others though.
Click to expand...

I don't even see it as a privacy thing. My spouse is allowed to ask me whatever she wants. She's gotta live with me, after all. :)

It's the whole "weird time to ask" part that had me thinking that there's more to it than meets the eye, and I don't think you want to be in he middle of that -- but that said, be available for your friend. If you knew them a long time maybe even ask her privately if she's doing ok, but don't turn into her crying shoulder... she needs to talk to her friends and or therapist for that.

Just my opinion. Can add it to $6 and get coffee at Starbucks. Ha.
 
Until I got into the program to become a pastor, I never talked about my military service.
No one, not my wife, my kids, my parents, my friends, no one knew that I was a pilot or that I had been 2 tours in SEA. I didn't see any reason to burden my folks or family with any of that.
After I got into the Seminary program I realized this could be a problem, a deal breaker for the people I was going to minister to as a pastor. After all, there was a lot of blood on my hands.
I had a sit down with my wife and kids and told them some things. No details. I was in, I was a pilot, I was overseas, I had been in combat.
I had our District President/Bishop sit with me at a Congregational Meeting and told them about my past. No details, same as above.
One family packed up and moved on. In a few weeks 11 new families walked in the door, all ex military, all word of mouth.
About 3 months later, a pastor from down in NYC (my age, never served, critical of everyone who did) shows up and in the middle of service starts calling me names. The usual, "baby burner, murderer, mercenary".
He demanded to know how many people did I murder?
It got very, very quiet.
I walked a little west of the altar rail, and told him that I couldn't be entirely sure of the exact number, since it's tough to get a body count at 600+ knots, but probably enough to fill the local sports arena.
Then I told him that on the occasions when I was up close and personal with the enemy I could give him an exact number, and I told him how many scalps and how many ears I had taken.
He demanded I leave the church because there was no forgiveness for me. I laughed at him and picked up a Bible and read a few passages from Scripture. I asked him who should I believe, him or God?
The next part I can still quote.
"By the way, pastor, I didn't stop killing people because it's bad, or immoral or unethical or forbidden by God. I quit killing people because they stopped paying me."
Dead silence.
First the vets, then a bunch of the other members started throwing money on the floor in front of the pastor.
I walked back to the altar and when I turned around he was gone. I understand he now sells insurance out on Long Island somewhere.
One of the reasons I re-enlisted in 2012, at age 63, was so I could get the message to the troops, first hand.
Yeah. This issue is very, very personal to me.
pastorhead.JPG
 
Shepherd said:
Until I got into the program to become a pastor, I never talked about my military service.
No one, not my wife, my kids, my parents, my friends, no one knew that I was a pilot or that I had been 2 tours in SEA. I didn't see any reason to burden my folks or family with any of that.
After I got into the Seminary program I realized this could be a problem, a deal breaker for the people I was going to minister to as a pastor. After all, there was a lot of blood on my hands.
I had a sit down with my wife and kids and told them some things. No details. I was in, I was a pilot, I was overseas, I had been in combat.
I had our District President/Bishop sit with me at a Congregational Meeting and told them about my past. No details, same as above.
One family packed up and moved on. In a few weeks 11 new families walked in the door, all ex military, all word of mouth.
About 3 months later, a pastor from down in NYC (my age, never served, critical of everyone who did) shows up and in the middle of service starts calling me names. The usual, "baby burner, murderer, mercenary".
He demanded to know how many people did I murder?
It got very, very quiet.
I walked a little west of the altar rail, and told him that I couldn't be entirely sure of the exact number, since it's tough to get a body count at 600+ knots, but probably enough to fill the local sports arena.
Then I told him that on the occasions when I was up close and personal with the enemy I could give him an exact number, and I told him how many scalps and how many ears I had taken.
He demanded I leave the church because there was no forgiveness for me. I laughed at him and picked up a Bible and read a few passages from Scripture. I asked him who should I believe, him or God?
The next part I can still quote.
"By the way, pastor, I didn't stop killing people because it's bad, or immoral or unethical or forbidden by God. I quit killing people because they stopped paying me."
Dead silence.
First the vets, then a bunch of the other members started throwing money on the floor in front of the pastor.
I walked back to the altar and when I turned around he was gone. I understand he now sells insurance out on Long Island somewhere.
One of the reasons I re-enlisted in 2012, at age 63, was so I could get the message to the troops, first hand.
Yeah. This issue is very, very personal to me.
Click to expand...

That's an amazing story. I can understand why you did the reveal in the way you did, and I'm glad you had all that support!

Like I say, I'd never ask him the question his wife asked in front of me. He talks about his service a lot, and I'm happy to listen, and ask questions that don't probe into his actions he's taken in this life.

Our religious study group doesn't have continuous pastoral leadership. It is most like a book club or discussion group. We study the Bible, and also the Torah, and Buddhist and Taoist scriptures. Whenever we can invite a pastor, rabbi, or master to join, we do. We keep everything positive, and help each other. We also usually have a dinner or lunch together before our meetings.
 
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