Help! Whittling down between SR20/22 vs M20M vs TB-20/21

Tampico Trauma

Tampico Trauma

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Mauled Formerly known as Tampico Trauma
Friends,

The time has come for me to get serious about the replacement for my beloved Tampico. While I've only had her a year and 150hrs on the hobbs, the Mrs. is getting the get-there-faster-itis and the pack-too-much-shiat-in-the-suitcase-itis. And I, I'm tired of hand-flying 2.5hr legs and am not going to put 25k in avionics/autopilots into a 45k plane.

Actually, our mission is changing slightly, and as I start to work towards my instrument, we've found examples of early cirri, trinidads (because I have a love affair with my 5' wide cabin) and most recently the M20M Bravo.

Here's the constants in the equation:
I'm a bit under 300lbs empty weight (and 6'6", so there's another issue)
Mrs. is 175ish and 6'
Little one is 45 lbs and growing like a weed (4years old)
Little one #2 will be around in another year or less-ish

Typical mission is about 250nm, Central valley of CA. (BFL-O69) to be specific. 2-3x/month
Secondary mission is BFL-NYL (3hrs+ currently because of terrain/routing)
(I'd like to be able to fly higher on the NYL run because I could eliminate 50 miles from the journey at 13k over the hill.)

Since getting my ticket in August, my slowest month was 12hrs, my busiest was 32. Most months we fly around 20hrs.

My requirements:
Autopilot and GPS (preferrably coupled)
Cruise Speed <150ktas
U/L of 900+
Comfortable (FFS, I'm 6'6"..its a lot to ask)

Her requirements:
Low Wing (She gets claustrophobic in Cessnas)
83 or newer (Has to be younger than her--I don't make the rules, she lets me fly)
Less than 60% of TBO (because we fly a shiatton of hours)
Reasonable cabin space (so she can turn around and tend to the kiddos as needed)

Things that are out:
Cessnas (like there's anything that's in that age range in the budget anyhow)
Homebuilts (she might flex on that one, but there'd have to be a good reason)
Bonanzas (Because, they tend to come from together...and they're 'spensive)

Reasons I like the above choices:

Cirri - Big red handle, because duh!, cruise speed, 6PC's instructional videos for transition training, magenta lines, style, space, no yoke...
Mooney Bravo - Because it's in my price range and 220kias at FL250 just sounds cool.
Trinidad - Because it's essentially my plane with 50% more airspeed and I like the mechanics of the airframe (size, layout, gullwing door).

Reasons I hate the above choices:
Cirri - Stigma, fear of pulling a chute while subscribing to this board, engines that come from together way before TBO, Chute Repacks
Mooney Bravo - One door, Perceived tiny cabin, Will it make TBO?, expense of maintenance and insurance.
Trinidad - Slowest of the group, MX costs can be higher at times, they're French and kind of snooty.

Budget is around $150 at the top end, preferably in the low 100's if at all possible.
 
Older SR22 would be perfect for you, other than possibly stretching the budget a bit. There's 6000 SRXX flying around and I can't think of many owners who are hung up about the stigma once they own one.

I'm 6'6" and 220lbs and I have done 2000NM in a single day in my plane in complete comfort. The cabin is very roomy and comfortable.
 
I went from a Tampico to a Cirrus. I didn't rub shoulders in either.
Without a book, I couldn't tell you which is bigger. There is MUCH more back seat room in the cirrus.

Also how the hell do you fly in any Socata at 6'6?
I am 5'10 and my head set was half an inch from the ceiling in the TB9


As far as the Cirrus,
I plan for 165 kts
UL is 1150
Obviously has all the gadgets, AP, etc
No retracts or blue knob
It was less than $140k

And yes, if I ever pull the handle, I will have to leave POA.
 
I'll forgive you for your ludicrous statement about Bonanzas...

...I also suggest you take a ride in a Saratoga. Based upon your described size, you may be amazed at what it can do, and what little you give up in speed you will more than gain in both comfort and utility.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I went from a Tampico to a Cirrus. I didn't rub shoulders in either.
Without a book, I couldn't tell you which is bigger. There is MUCH more back seat room in the cirrus.

Also how the hell do you fly in any Socata at 6'6?
I am 5'10 and my head set was half an inch from the ceiling in the TB9


As far as the Cirrus,
I plan for 165 kts
UL is 1150
Obviously has all the gadgets, AP, etc
No retracts or blue knob
It was less than $140k

And yes, if I ever pull the handle, I will have to leave POA.
Click to expand...

I tilt the seat back and rest my shins up against the bottom of the panel.

It works.

For a while.

I absolutely love my Tampico and struggle with the idea of keeping it as a trainer/leaseback so I always have a backup. Next month will be tough for my first annual....not sure if I can convince Mrs. Tampico to slum it in Dad's 1960 Skylark.

The big red handle is more and more enticing. The decision between 20 and 22 is an even tougher one. So many of the 22's only have about 100lb of UL more than many of the 20's......

But....
 
SCCutler said:
I'll forgive you for your ludicrous statement about Bonanzas...

...I also suggest you take a ride in a Saratoga. Based upon your described size, you may be amazed at what it can do, and what little you give up in speed you will more than gain in both comfort and utility.
Click to expand...

Saratoga or Lance at that point?

I love the utility of the -32, but they're so damn ugly. Then again the 'pico looks like a chubby cherokee
 
Unless one or both of you are fat, I'd get the mooney, it's more of a real airplane, fast and proven, good IFR platform and a real x/c machine.

Too bad your wife is wrapped up in the year nonsense, you could get a DECKED OUT Commanchie and still have a good chunk of change left over, more room with a nice back seat, good speed, rock steady, legendary wing, dirt simple systems, handles very well, lands easily on grass and looks good too.

Oh well, the mooney still is the winner by a decent amount out of your choices IMO
 
A Comanche - there's a thought!
 
Have you tried to wear a Mooney yet ? I am a bit more skinny than you are and find them claustrophobic.


I think you'll like the Cirrus.
 
I started with a SR20 and immediately realized i screwed up. Sold it for SR22. If you go Cirrus trust me and get the SR20
 
Yes. Sr22. Sorry laying on the couch with ipad cant sleep
 
weilke said:
Have you tried to wear a Mooney yet ? I am a bit more skinny than you are and find them claustrophobic.


I think you'll like the Cirrus.
Click to expand...
All modern Mooneys have plenty of length, you do have to sit in one, the position is more sports car like, low with legs stretched out.
Compared to a 2 door with more bench like seating, it will feel more snug. Maybe more narrow than the other choices, I never had a problem at 6', but I haven't flow with someone the OP size
 
I've been on again, off again looking at planes myself @Tampico Trauma . I think I'd probably go with a Mooney or Bo if I had to. Only because Cirrus planes (from what I've heard) are stupid expensive to maintain.

A Mooney Bravo sounds sweet, and while I've never flown them, the A36 or G36 models of the Bo are sexay.

You know this, but the acquisition cost of the plane is the cheapest investment you'll ever make in the aircraft. I think with 150K at the top end and ideally low 100s you're probably in the Mooney price range more than the Bo. It's possible you could get a Cirrus for that range, sure, but it would definitely not have all the bells and whistles that a comparable Mooney would in the same price range.

Too bad about 83 and up, that's gonna really cut into your budget. If you got a 1970 Mooney or even an '80 Mooney you might be able to shave some significant money off the deal while not compromising on equipment. The newer airframes don't have much going for them, except, they are newer...that's about it.
 
If you choose the Cirrus route, the SR22 is a far better choice.

Not so much for speed, but for climbing ability. Makes a HUUUGE difference if and when rising terrain is an issue. Almost magic efficiencies available in the mid-teens as well.

Maintenance should be virtually identical, since both use 6 cyl Continentals.
 
teejayevans said:
All modern Mooneys have plenty of length, you do have to sit in one, the position is more sports car like, low with legs stretched out.
Compared to a 2 door with more bench like seating, it will feel more snug. Maybe more narrow than the other choices, I never had a problem at 6', but I haven't flow with someone the OP size
Click to expand...

It's not the height. Based on his numbers he is a big boy. He has about 100lbs on me and I find the Mooney snug and a hassle to get my feet underneath the panel.
 
IMG_0074.JPG IMG_0050.JPG
Tampico Trauma said:
Cessnas (like there's anything that's in that age range in the budget anyhow)

Bonanzas (Because, they tend to come from together...and they're 'spensive)

Budget is around $150 at the top end, preferably in the low 100's if at all possible.
Click to expand...

I think you are selling yourself short. If you accept something a little older than 1983 With a budget of $150k you could be in a decent Cessna 210, really nice 182 or get over the misguided fear of the bonanza and look at some really nice F33's or decent A36's in that price range. Yes the initial cost is higher but they are built pretty stout so should require less maintenance $$. Also got feedback from a few shops before making my purchase and I gathered that repairs for Cessna and Mooney can actually be higher so in the long run a good Beechcraft should be cheaper (but any airplane is a gamble).

Oh yeah, and I should probably thank people for the V35 fear mongering. It allowed me to get a true 165kt (at 13GPH LOP) airplane that can haul over 1200lbs with G530W/STEC50AP/Shadin Fuel flow/JPI700/300HP-IO550 with 350SMOH) 5hr+ range with new interior for around $100k

Just my 2 cents of course...But I did spend 2 years in the same boat trying and flying different airplanes to figure out what fit both the mission and the budget.
 
Being 6'+ isn't a problem in a mooney, but it can get snug if you are broad. It gets cozy in mine when I have another adult in the passenger seat. My wife also complains about getting in an out. I'd check useful load on every plane you consider. With growing kids, that can also be hard to figure depending on how long you plan to keep your next plane. If useful load gets to be an issue, have you checked into a 210 or Saratoga/Lance?
 
Yeah, sit in the Mooney before you make any decisions. Al Mooney was a tall guy, but he must have been skinny like a rail. Didn't even know you could pick up a Bravo for under 100 grand. It'll be the fast one. That said, the Bo is the airplane you want. Fast and roomy for growing spawn.
 
FastEddieB said:
If you choose the Cirrus route, the SR22 is a far better choice.

Not so much for speed, but for climbing ability. Makes a HUUUGE difference if and when rising terrain is an issue. Almost magic efficiencies available in the mid-teens as well.

Maintenance should be virtually identical, since both use 6 cyl Continentals.
Click to expand...

I'll echo Eddie's comments. I have never owned an SR20 but have plenty of time in them. The biggest advantage of the 22 vs 20 is not the cruise speed (though it is a nice bump) but the confidence and comfort in your climb rate. An SR22 at max gross on a hot day out climbs anything you have in your logbook light on a cold day. An SR20 at gross on a hot day demands respect and careful planning and execution.
 
Since we've departed on the Beech radial- any thoughts on the later Sierra's/Dutchesses?

The only thing I found other than the Tampico that she liked was a 67 Mousketeer (that literally fell apart during the pre-buy)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I'm not allergic to Bo's... I have just resigned myself to the fear mongering I see here. The idea of an A36 and six seats would be nice if the Mrs could sit back with the littlest ones


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
JCranford said:
We're going to need to see a photo of the six foot tall wife to give an informed opinion
Click to expand...
9551078735e7197bc16f6f08353b3e1e.jpg
 
MyassisDragon said:
View attachment 45344 View attachment 45345

I think you are selling yourself short. If you accept something a little older than 1983 With a budget of $150k you could be in a decent Cessna 210, really nice 182 or get over the misguided fear of the bonanza and look at some really nice F33's or decent A36's in that price range. Yes the initial cost is higher but they are built pretty stout so should require less maintenance $$. Also got feedback from a few shops before making my purchase and I gathered that repairs for Cessna and Mooney can actually be higher so in the long run a good Beechcraft should be cheaper (but any airplane is a gamble).

Oh yeah, and I should probably thank people for the V35 fear mongering. It allowed me to get a true 165kt (at 13GPH LOP) airplane that can haul over 1200lbs with G530W/STEC50AP/Shadin Fuel flow/JPI700/300HP-IO550 with 350SMOH) 5hr+ range with new interior for around $100k

Just my 2 cents of course...But I did spend 2 years in the same boat trying and flying different airplanes to figure out what fit both the mission and the budget.
Click to expand...

Cessna's are out (as much as a T210 or a 182RG is tempting - she's a stickler for the high wing deal - I made a deal with her that she's got to go do a few bounces in a 177 or 210 before we finally put that nail in the coffin, which she's willing to do now that she's got 100+ hours in the right seat.

I'm going to have to go back to the Bo's and take a second look. The inventory is there.... hell, factory A/C on some models would be nice out here too, but let's get real with ourselves, that's one more system to go south.
 
I flew an M20J the other day up to Nashville.

I'm 5'9" and could barely reach the rudder pedals without hugging the yoke (and I should of brought a cushion). If you are tall, you'll have plenty of room to stretch your legs as the pilot.

But it also felt very narrow to me. Like more narrow then a Cherokee (even though I think it's not technically). When I was trimming, I was constantly rubbing the other guys leg. The seats may be wider then a Cherokee, giving that illusion, but it just felt cramped. Would I still buy and fly one in the right circumstances? Sure.

If I were your size though, it'd be the Cirrus or a Bonanza. I've flown a TB-200 (same interior as the Trinidad) and found it pretty roomy and a great layout, but I think the Bonanza and Cirrus are even wider and more comfortable. If age wasn't an issue, the Comanche is an excellent choice as well.

But given that you can afford it, there's just no reason not to try to get an SR22 IMO. It'll make your wife more confident, you'll have all the latest bells and whistles, no gear to worry about, and it's fast and very roomy.

You asked about the Sierra but they just don't make much sense to me. They are basically retractable Sundowners that almost reach Cherokee speeds. You are paying for a complex with no real benefit.

Since you are considering the Trinidad, and given it's not that fast of a retract, you might as well look at Cherokee 6s as well. A ton of room, decent enough speed, and probably the cheapest of any of these to maintain.
 
I would suggest a PA-32 of some flavor based on need for useful load. I think the newer PA-32s are nice looking with the new cowling (or you can add a LoPresti howl cowl). Tons of useful load, reasonable speed, easy MX, and the wife can ride in the back with the kiddos if needed.

I would worry about your useful load in the Mooney.
 
Tampico Trauma said:
Cessna's are out (as much as a T210 or a 182RG is tempting - she's a stickler for the high wing deal - I made a deal with her that she's got to go do a few bounces in a 177 or 210 before we finally put that nail in the coffin, which she's willing to do now that she's got 100+ hours in the right seat.

I'm going to have to go back to the Bo's and take a second look. The inventory is there.... hell, factory A/C on some models would be nice out here too, but let's get real with ourselves, that's one more system to go south.
Click to expand...

I'm 6'-4" about 235 lbs and I think you are going to find ease of ingress/egress becomes damn important - especially stowing away two growing kids. The A36 Bonanza with it's large second door and club seating in back is an option you should seriously consider. It is NOT a true 6 passenger airplane (insufficient useful load for 6 adults), but for a family of 4 should prove very capable and excellent value for money. It was the alternative I was looking at before I decided to move up to a twin.

In defence of the Cessna 210, once again the ingress/egress without having to climb on the wing has its attractions. I think you are correct to have your wife have a closer look before a final decision.

Finally, you mentioned the Beech Duchess in an earlier post. That's a twin and opens up a whole other range of options, one of which is the Piper Seneca which also has 6 place club seating and separate baggage and passenger doors behind the wing (basically a Cherokee 6 with two engines).
 
I guess you said no experimentals, but it seems like a Vans RV10 would be a great bang for buck like the above poster said?
 
The G3 Turbo I rent is a bit short on payload. The other older one I can rent is more reasonable.
 
GRG55 said:
I'm 6'-4" about 235 lbs and I think you are going to find ease of ingress/egress becomes damn important - especially stowing away two growing kids. The A36 Bonanza with it's large second door and club seating in back is an option you should seriously consider. It is NOT a true 6 passenger airplane (insufficient useful load for 6 adults), but for a family of 4 should prove very capable and excellent value for money. It was the alternative I was looking at before I decided to move up to a twin.

In defence of the Cessna 210, once again the ingress/egress without having to climb on the wing has its attractions. I think you are correct to have your wife have a closer look before a final decision.

Finally, you mentioned the Beech Duchess in an earlier post. That's a twin and opens up a whole other range of options, one of which is the Piper Seneca which also has 6 place club seating and separate baggage and passenger doors behind the wing (basically a Cherokee 6 with two engines).
Click to expand...

I've heard that the 210 is a bit of a MX hog. Problems with sufficient engine cooling and finicky gear issues.
 
Kent Shook participates on these pages and is a truly outsized individual. He flies a modern Mooney, I think an Acclaim. It can work. I actually agree with the other fellows about the Bonanza. Never heard an owner say they didn't like them. Heard them say the things were too damn expensive, though.

Adorable spawn, by the way.
 
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