Help me understand the costs of updating a panel

[Jim K]

So...
My next aviation goal after completing the instrument rating is to buy an airplane. As I compare candidates, I think I know how to adjust for engine, paint, and interior, but occasionally I'll see an airplane with a vfr panel or an ancient kln-89 or Apollo GPS, and im not sure what it would cost to update.

Im well aware you can spend more in the panel than the airframe is worth, but im not that interested in acres of glass. Im happy with steam gauges, but I definitely want a waas GPS. I'd be ok with even a 430, but I don't think installing something that old would be wise? What's the current equivalent? Is it worth looking at used equipment?

What kind of money are you looking at for a basic nav/com for a #2 radio? Basic no-frills audio panel?

 

[JOhnH]

My advice: keep looking till you find a plane you are happy with without putting a lot of money into upgrading it. Let the other guy take the day-1 hit on depreciation.

 

[RyanB]

nuff said

 

[edo2000]

My advice: keep looking till you find a plane you are happy with without putting a lot of money into upgrading it. Let the other guy take the day-1 hit on depreciation.

I agree 100%. ... If you can do it that way. In my case, I found almost exactly the airplane I wanted, perfect shape, great engine, great paint, great price, and 60 miles away! The purchase was quick and painless. But... the panel was nothing like what really wanted. 2 years later, I still love the airplane, but dislike the panel... Upgrades are very expensive, they take the airplane out of service, and usually require you to reposition airplane quite a distance from home base. If you can find one that has already been upgraded and debugged... it is worth a LOT.

 

[Jim K]

My advice: keep looking till you find a plane you are happy with without putting a lot of money into upgrading it. Let the other guy take the day-1 hit on depreciation.

You raise a good point. I'm after a pretty specific airframe...it needs to be a Cherokee 6 with forward facing seats. AFAIK it's the only single engine piston capable of seating 7 aside from the Cessna 207 and Gipps Airvan, both of which are rarer and MUCH more expensive. I would expect to keep it until most of the kids are gone, so about 15 years give or take. Or until I can afford a twin... Anyway finding a solid airframe is priority 1, and looking at 50 year old machines may not leave me a lot of choices.

 

[edo2000]

In answer to the original question- I am not an expert on upgrade costs, but have gotten a 2 bids in the past year. Audio panels are not expensive for the hardware, but the install is extensive (and very expensive). And you didn't say what type of nav comm capability you want ( ILS?). There are several choices for IFR GPSs now, which is good. In my experimental, I requested a quote from a well respected shop with a GNX375 GPS+xpndr, an audio panel, comm radios (no nav), and G5s for attitude display and DG, with the simplest engine monitor solution, the quote was $37K, installed.

I then lowered my expectations, and spec'd a GPS175, one G5, audio panel and comm radios, and it was still in the low 20's... I'm still waffling, but will probably do an upgrade soon.

A certified airplane will cost more for most of the hardware. Install will be similar, except my experimental is newer with less decrepit wiring and switchgear to change out.

I would highly recommend NOT going with a used, 15-20 year old GPS. Some of the new ones are not that expensive in comparison.

 

[cgrab]

I had an Apollo GPS in my plane before the panel upgrade. It is still there. I replaced the KX170/MX170's with a KX155 W/GS and an ICOM 220. I replaced the audio panel with a PMA6000 and moved the Mode C xpndr up in the stack. That left room for a tablet to mount to the panel and for 2 USB ports to power the tablet and the ADSB in. I mounted a skybeacon and paid the mech about 10K.

 

[AlleyCat67]

While it's a better deal to find a plane with everything you want, you'll have to have the patience to look for months/years for that perfect specimen. There just aren't that many newly updated, mint planes that suddenly go onto the market (loss of medical might be the only likely explanation). Personally, I wouldn't be afraid of buying a plane that needs upgrades. Both an engine overhaul and new avionics are fairly easy to price out, and you can then get exactly what you want. Where you really need to be careful is in the general maintenance history. If the plane hasn't been flown much recently, or the annuals have been pencil-whipped, you'll likely be fixing issues for years to come.

 

[455 Bravo Uniform]

Budget $15-$25k for an up-to-date WAAS GPS purchase and install, with ADSB-out.

-Less if you go with a smaller screen.
-Less if you assist with the install.
-Less if you plug a newer Avidyne IFD-540/440 in place of an older Garmin 530/430 (essentially plug & play)...but if you already have the older Garmin in a plane, it works, so there’s your WAAS GPS.

If you can tie-in existing panel tools like CDI, HSI, and move an existing NavCom1 into a 2 spot, and save your audio panel, then the above cost is possible.

Here is a before & after of an affordable (to me) upgrade I did 2 years after buying my plane and before starting my IFR training. It was useable for IFR work, but no GPS. I kept as tight a grip on my wallet as possible.

 

[NealRomeoGolf]

Jim,

Here’s some central IL pricing for you:

GNC255 nav/com installed: $5000
PS Engineering 8000G 6 place installed: $4000
GTX 345 transponder (replace existing Garmin): $6000

I have a GNC 355 and G5 quote too I can dig up.

 

[NealRomeoGolf]

More:

GNC 355 installed: $10,000
G5 ( just 1) with GAD 29B: $6100

 

[asicer]

What kind of money are you looking at for a basic nav/com for a #2 radio? Basic no-frills audio panel?

Obviously it's going to depend on what you install, where and what's involved, etc but very rough estimate: Take the cost of materials and add ~65% for labor.

 

[NealRomeoGolf]

By the way Jim, would welcome you with open arms to the Cherokee 6/Lance/Saratoga family.

 

[Jim K]

excellent data points guys...thanks. looks like installed price is going to run about 150-200% of list, which is about what I would expect, although the actual list prices of these units are higher than I realized. Guess I need to give more weight to the panel than I realized.

I just don't know what's out there, as my avionics experience is pretty much limited to what is the club planes, and our newest box is GTN650, and it's in a plane I don't fly. The gns530 is the newest thing I've actually flown with, and the KLN-94 in the Archer is the only one I'm proficient enough to fly IFR with. It's getting difficult to find alternates with anything other than a GPS approach, and it's only going to get worse.

 

[Racerx]

Lots of PA32-300s available...at least they consistently pop up. I don't recall them having the wing spar issues. Probably because they weren't used as trainers where they're taking a beating 5 times an hour every hour. SoCalflyingmonkey bought his Six for 30k. He then put everything he wanted into his plane including an overhaul. His upgrades were obviously way more spendy, but that plane would last him as long as he wants and he'll never have to put anything else into it...except maybe another 10" hdx to get rid of the iPad.

For whatever reason avionics upgrades don't hold value at all. Engine overhaul does, but obviously depreciates with use. Paint and interior all have decent return on investment. Avionics just aren't worth it if you look at from an investment standpoint.

It's a real tough market for buyers right now. Not all of us can find that 30k Cherokee Six. I wouldn't be rushing to buy something worrying about not finding another. Find one with what you want. My dad loves his and will never get rid of it despite rarely flying with even 3 people. He's owned for probably 15 years. First with a partner then bought out the partner. Paint wasn't bad...just ugly. Interior wasn't bad..just original (red....very red). Those have been taken care of, now he wants a full glass panel and autopilot. But first he needs to get it back from annual. An annual that started in early July

 

[Radar Contact]

looks like installed price is going to run about 150-200% of list, which is about what I would expect

I was going to say be prepared for this. Way too many variables though. i.e. Swapping a 530 for an IFD 540 is way cheaper than installing a 750. Are your panels going to need to get re-cut? What are they going to find when they get back there? How many, “while you’re in there’s” are going to pop up. Etc. I’m having fun evolving my plane but it’s not for everyone. I’ve made a couple mistakes in the process where I wish I could get that money back but I’m really happy where I’m at so far. Next up, factory engine/fuel gauge replacements...one day.

Wish you luck with finding your 6 and making her the way you want!

 

[FlyingMonkey]

I'm a big fan of making the plane how you want it. I purposefully set out to find either a plane that already was loaded up with most of what I wanted, or had absolutely none of what I wanted and needed major updating. I went with the latter after considering many planes that sort of fit the former. I know you said you are not into glass but if I were to be looking at a plane that I would keep for a long time right now, I would try to find one with a 430 or 530W and nothing else and just put the Dynon HDX in and swap the Garmin for an Avidyne 440/540. The HDX can cover the second comm, all ADSB needs and will get rid of the analogue flight instruments and vacuum system all of which are bound to fail and need replacing at some random point. I think it represents a really great overall value and can make sense for you if you come across a plane with. If you want steam gauges then just swap that 430 for an Avidyne 440 and go with one of the cheap ADSB solutions if it is lacking. You should definitely check out the Avidyne navigators to familiarize yourself with modern GPS units along with the Garmin 650/750. Avidyne has an iPad simulator app which is very good. You will get an idea of how easy they are to use. I enjoy having the fun tech in the cockpit but some people prefer the steam gauges and more basic avionics. It's great that we can each customize things to our own liking. A very fun part of the process is researching, planning, and dreaming about what you want to do with an ideal panel.
I have a video review of the HDX and PMA450B audio panel on my channel (and the Trutrak AP). Those 3 could give you a good idea of the latest offerings for those types of avionics in your research.

 

[CharlieD3]

The only understanding I have of upgrading a panel is this.

If you have to ask you can't afford it.

When I look for my plane I'm afraid I'll have to look at what someone else thought was a good upgrade... And live with it.

 

[Groundpounder]

If it is an airplane you are going to keep for a long time, stop worrying so much on "getting your money back on avionics". I used to worry about the resale value, but I plan on keeping this airplane for a long time, so I decided to get the panel that I really want. I would look for an airplane that has a solid airframe and history vs one with the perfect avionics. It's easy to upgrade the panel, but you can't take hours off the airframe, take away damage history, or fix corrosion.

Very few people sell a perfect airplane, and the airplanes that are perfect won't last long in this market, or will be horribly overpriced.

I wouldn't bother with used equipment if you are doing a new install. There are lots of options out there today that will probably be cheaper in the long run, even if they cost a little more up front to buy. A 430 won't be supported forever.

 

[JOhnH]

Based on this thread, I withdraw my advice to keep looking until you find what you want. Keep looking for it of course, but also look for a good plane at a price that you can afford to purchase AND upgrade the way you like it. Just do like the OP and do your research on what it will realistically cost to upgrade. Paint is expensive. Engines are expensive. Avionics can cost more than both of them together if you let it. Also factor in a very healthy figure for your first annual or two.

Or do like many others do; buy an "almost" ragged out plane and fly it to the edge, then sell it for almost what you paid for it.

 

[jetedrick]

I just added $18k worth of avionics on my 1977 Piper Warrior II, which I know I will not get back, but it is my plane and will be my forever plane. I plan on adding more in the future, I do not mind investing in something that makes me happy, knowing, I will not get that money back...ever.

Thanks!

 

[kujo806]

About 5 years ago I put a GTN650, PMA8000G, and GTX345 into our Arrow and it came in right about $30K. It is crazy expensive for what it is, but I loved flying that plane.

The market seems crazy right now, so if you have to buy now, find a solid air frame and make it your own. I'm getting turned off by the prices out there. $180K for a 40yr old 182 that needs a new panel and interior is just a little silly I think.

 

[Groundpounder]

I just added $18k worth of avionics on my 1977 Piper Warrior II, which I know I will not get back, but it is my plane and will be my forever plane. I plan on adding more in the future, I do not mind investing in something that makes me happy, knowing, I will not get that money back...ever.

Thanks!

You can't say you're not going to get it back, ever. There is a certain amount of "curb appeal" that comes with avionics upgrades as well, so it could very well help you sell your airplane easier, if you ever have to do it.

 

[wayne]

Try to find as much in the panel as possible. For IFR flying I'd want either 650/440 (if nothing is in the plane). You'll need ADS-B out, hopefully it has that already. I would also want a good autopilot that can not only track the flight, but also hold altitude at a minimum, coupled approaches is better. A good autopilot makes the trip a lot easier on the pilot. An HSI makes approaches easier, and therefore safer. Weather and plates can be on an iPad, much cheaper that way too.

I like to travel this way.

Good luck on finding a good plane and have fun traveling with the family. Our middle daughter and I talked about a lot of fun trips last night.

 

[MooneyDriver78]

I just added $18k worth of avionics on my 1977 Piper Warrior II, which I know I will not get back, but it is my plane and will be my forever plane. I plan on adding more in the future, I do not mind investing in something that makes me happy, knowing, I will not get that money back...ever.

Thanks!

I agree with you, this is the proper attitude. Just remember, for every hour you fly the price per hour for your avionics goes down.
So the more you fly the cheaper it gets! (yes I know this is a rationalization).


Tom

 

[WDD]

You're a few steps ahead of me, but I've also been looking a plane prices, costs of avionics, etc. FWIW here are my thoughts

1) Flying is an expensive hobby - don't get too caught up with saving money on this - that train left the station a long time ago
2) Get a plane that is safe/sound mechanically, has a solid engine will a good amount of hours left of it
3) You can then focus on the paint and the interior

Focus on Scalability
4) Panel - I've come to the conclusion that I'm just going to have to install what I want.
5) Start off with putting in a GTX 345, GTN 650, and for bonus a new audio panel. I would also get a G5 and rip out the vacuum pump.
6) As the years go buy and new Garmin what not pop up, or you've decided you really want that G3 glass, the things you've already bought will be compatible and still useful.

 

[Juliet Hotel]

I'd be ok with even a 430, but I don't think installing something that old would be wise?

If you're ok with a 430 then your best option is find a plane with one already installed. There are plenty of them out there. Doing upgrades of any sort on an aircraft generally yields a 50% ROI at best. So half of any money you put into an upgrade is money burned at resale time. So the bigger question you need to ask is are you looking for your first plane? Or are you looking for your last plane? The only plane you want to do upgrades on is your last plane. The one you're going to keep until you hang up your headset. If you're 100% sure your first plane is going to be your forever plane, then including examples that need upgrades in your search makes sense.

But if you're not 100% sure your first plane will be your forever plane, it makes much more sense to only look for examples you won't want to put upgrades on IMO.

 

[NealRomeoGolf]

Not avionics related, Jim, but one reality for you from what I just went through. Sounds like you are going Archer to PA32 like me. I knew the fuel burn would be higher, but it's a bit of a shock when the reality hits. On a typical Saturday I now put more gas in my plane than what an Archer can hold in total. It is not a financial problem (thankfully) but it just kinda hits me when I see the bill. I would typically run my PA28 at 8.5gph and now I am running 15.5gph. It's a big jump.

I do enjoy seeing 180 knot ground speeds going east though.

 

[JOhnH]

I just added $18k worth of avionics on my 1977 Piper Warrior II, which I know I will not get back, but it is my plane and will be my forever plane. I plan on adding more in the future, I do not mind investing in something that makes me happy, knowing, I will not get that money back...ever.

Thanks!

It's a good idea not to expect to get it back, but don't count it out either.

I can't help looking at Trade-a-plane, controller, etc and I am amazed at the prices I am seeing today. The asking price for Bonanza's similar to mine are almost twice what the asking price of mine was 5 years ago. I could have put $75k into my panel and now sell the plane and get back the original price plus the cost of the panel. Instead, I am going do drop ~$30k into an air conditioner. I have a low-time engine, decent panel and good paint. With an air conditioner, I think I may keep it for the rest of my flying life. (or as long as my wife keeps her license).

Of course though, no one should count on that. Prices can go down too.

 

[Jim K]

Not avionics related, Jim, but one reality for you from what I just went through. Sounds like you are going Archer to PA32 like me. I knew the fuel burn would be higher, but it's a bit of a shock when the reality hits. On a typical Saturday I now put more gas in my plane than what an Archer can hold in total. It is not a financial problem (thankfully) but it just kinda hits me when I see the bill. I would typically run my PA28 at 8.5gph and now I am running 15.5gph. It's a big jump.

I do enjoy seeing 180 knot ground speeds going east though.

The club has a Dakota as well....I think we got something like 12.5-13 on our florida trip. I made a spreadsheet, and the Dakota is actually cheaper to fly both because it's faster, and you can pull the RPM's down(the club charges by tach hour).

Obviously I'm expecting a higher fuel burn than the Dakota, but at least it's not the whole jump all at once. One of the reasons I'm looking specifically for a 6-300 is so I can eventually set it up for LOP operation. That and I'm probably going to load it up to max gross and i want all the HP I can get. I'm hoping to bring it into the club so i still have access to the PA-28s when I'm just doing proficiency or the -32 is down for mx.

It's a good idea not to expect to get it back, but don't count it out either.

I can't help looking at Trade-a-plane, controller, etc and I am amazed at the prices I am seeing today. The asking price for Bonanza's similar to mine are almost twice what the asking price of mine was 5 years ago. I could have put $75k into my panel and now sell the plane and get back the original price plus the cost of the panel. Instead, I am going do drop ~$30k into an air conditioner. I have a low-time engine, decent panel and good paint. With an air conditioner, I think I may keep it for the rest of my flying life. (or as long as my wife keeps her license).

Of course though, no one should count on that. Prices can go down too.

I've watching for about a year, and I would say the -32's are up at least 10% since the COVID thing started. Piper's don't seem to be shooting up as much as Cessna's. It's probably a terrible time to buy an airplane, but I want to make a few trips before my oldest leaves the nest, and I figure it's going to take a good year to get the bugs out of the airplane and get my skills where they need to be. I was kind of hoping the sagging economy would help me out, but it seems to have worked exactly the opposite. It will be interesting to see what happens if/when we get a vaccine and airliners are considered 'safe' again. I think it may have more to do with inflation than anything.

 

[WDD]

Inflation is pretty tame imho. Why plane prices up? IDK. Will they be higher in future so now is the perfect time to buy, or will drop so buy later ? Who can predict

Regrets are usually the things we don’t do vs what we do.......

 

[Groundpounder]

It’s been almost two years since I bought my airplane, and I almost delayed for a year so that the prices could come down. Glad I didn’t wait.

 

[455 Bravo Uniform]

Let’s smash a rule of thumb here and now. Yes, I won’t get my money out of an avionics upgrade, but at the rate airplanes are appreciating, it won’t matter. I bought my plane low, upgraded a few things, and would be able to sell higher than my total investment just because of total appreciation.

 

[WDD]

This 1972 Cherokee 160 is for sale now for $80,000 But for that this plane flies at 110 KTs and I'd like something a bit faster I'd buy this immediately.

Garmin GTN Nav/Comm 750 WAAS
Garmin G500TXI PFD
Garmin G5 Standalone Backup
Garmin 345 GMA AudioPanel Bluetooth
Garmin 345 Transponder

 

[Jim K]

This 1972 Cherokee 160 is for sale now for $80,000 But for that this plane flies at 110 KTs and I'd like something a bit faster I'd buy this immediately.

Garmin GTN Nav/Comm 750 WAAS
Garmin G500TXI PFD
Garmin G5 Standalone Backup
Garmin 345 GMA AudioPanel Bluetooth
Garmin 345 Transponder

Buy the avionics, get the airplane free

 

[FlyingMonkey]

I fly my PA32-300 LOP for about 12.1-12.4 gph (130-135 knots) for what it's worth. I used to fly my Challenger (Archer) about 8-9 gph slightly LOP at 8500-9500 for around 110-115 knots. It's somewhere in the range of 1-2 nm/gal less efficient if I am calculating it right...

here's my panel too.

 

[NordicDave]

I just added $18k worth of avionics on my 1977 Piper Warrior II, which I know I will not get back, but it is my plane and will be my forever plane. I plan on adding more in the future, I do not mind investing in something that makes me happy, knowing, I will not get that money back...ever.

Thanks!

Nice Warriors with updated panels are selling for record premiums. Just had a good buddy sell his 76 Warrior with 430, GTX-345, Twin G5’s, and other updates. Had the plane 2 years and made money. People want sensible avionics upgrades and not necessarily deal with the aggravation of doing it.

 

[Ravioli]

I'm after a pretty specific airframe...it needs to be a Cherokee 6 with forward facing seats. AFAIK it's the only single engine piston capable of seating 7

Note that seating 7 is not an automatic. And that if it's certificated for 7 seats it can never be flown under Basic Med. Ever.

There's much discussion of that on the Piper Owners Forum.

 

[FlyingMonkey]

Note that seating 7 is not an automatic. And that if it's certificated for 7 seats it can never be flown under Basic Med. Ever.

There's much discussion of that on the Piper Owners Forum.

I believe there are STCs to change it to a six seater if the TCDS lists it as 7 seats only. In the models that are 6 OR 7 in the TCDS you can put a logbook entry that you have removed the seventh seat kit if I am remembering correctly.

 

[Jim K]

Note that seating 7 is not an automatic. And that if it's certificated for 7 seats it can never be flown under Basic Med. Ever.

There's much discussion of that on the Piper Owners Forum.

I thought they were all certified for 7, but only the forward facing seating was ever actually available with 7 seats. There is an STC to make them a certified 6 seater and eligible for basic med. I don't have any reason to believe I won't be able to continue to hold a 3rd class medical, though.

My understanding is that if it has the forward seating, the attachments are there for the little 7th seat, which are hard to find, but more available since the basic med thing came about.

Seems like most pre 75 are forward facing and by 77 almost all were club. The earlier planes have better UL, of course. 69-73 is the sweet spot for me. The very early birds had vernier throttles and non- standard panels, and the pre-66s didn't have the aft cargo door. None of those are deal killers though.

The bad part is that the 300s seem more common in later models, so the crossover of a forward facing 300 is somewhat rare. I tried to talk my wife into a club or even a bonanza, but she really wants to at least have the option to load up the whole family. I have seen a couple 7 seat early Lances. There's also a handful of Senecas, but I don't think I could afford to maintain a twin, never mind the training and proficiency issues.

Which piper owners forum are you on? I looked into them and it seemed like one wasn't active and the other charged a fee, so I didn't join.