Help me spend up to 165k

North Phoenix, close to Deer Valley airport.
 
Salty said:
Dose of reality back. They won’t even quote you these days without 200 hours twin time.
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I was thinking about this the other day. Do you think the same would be for an inline twin like a 337 Skymaster???
 
As someone who owns a Cessna 205, you'll have CG issues unless you always have pax. I'm 165 and at full fuel (84gal LR tanks) anyone in the co-pilots seat over 165lbs pushes us past CG. I carry 2 50lbs boat ballast bags in the very rear most seats for days without the family.

For your first plane, I'd push you to a Cessna 172/175/182 or a piper 235/236. If you gotta go retract, go TB-20. They're awesome and insurance will be awesomely expensive for you (7-8k first year.)
 
Re Dakota - From the front I think they're identical to any other PA-28. I'm about 6' 185 and don't notice any difference between them in terms of room. If you aren't comfortable in a Cherokee I think Dakota would be the same. I know they'll carry more weight than most other PA-28's, and maybe the back seat has a little bit more room, but I'm not sure.
 
Jeff Oslick said:
182 P or Q. Biased, but 17-year owner experienced viewpoint. Get it with a larger-that-stock engine (i.e. Pponk Super Eagle, or what is now the Northpoint Aviation XP470) for even better climb performance in the mountains, without the turbo concerns.

Combine with the Trolltune MGTOW STC, will get you around 800+ payload + 75 gal fuel (or trade off some of that massive range for additional payload).

Yeah, their pricey these days, but it's anyone's guess if there will ever be much of a correction in the price from here.
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Wet wing Q or R model if he can find one
 
Albany Tom said:
Re Dakota - From the front I think they're identical to any other PA-28. I'm about 6' 185 and don't notice any difference between them in terms of room. If you aren't comfortable in a Cherokee I think Dakota would be the same. I know they'll carry more weight than most other PA-28's, and maybe the back seat has a little bit more room, but I'm not sure.
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Correct, dakotas are pa28 cabins just the same. Identical cabins as any post 72 arrow. The 235 cherokee that preceeded the dakota has the midget back seats, like the pre 72 arrows. The charger and pathfinder are the two years the 235 had the stretch cabin like the dakota and post 72 arrow. The turbo dakota is a misnomer, its just a fixed gear turbo arrow, and the sales flop to match.
 
EdFred said:
Yeah, but with the 3 position recline seats you can be at least 6'7 without issue.
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Love the ‘62 Comanche but I don’t fit at all. Knee blocks yoke = unsafe.

Maybe later models lock the seat in much further back or have much lower seats.
 
Supereri said:
I haven't really looked at the 205/206 yet. I like the idea of the high wing (except fueling), less than 4 tanks (Cherokee 6), and the doors. I guess it's just been out of concern over hearing about how hard to get insurance is in a 210.
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210 insurance doesn’t have much to do with 205/206 insurance - 210s are retract.

Terry M - 3CK (Chicago) said:
I was intrigued when someone said 205/206 same dollars as 182.

Lowest asking price I see for 205/6 is $225k.

I see 182s in the $150-175 range. Maybe that is penny wise pound foolish, but $50-75k is meaningful to me.
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There is a 205 for sale for $150k right now, and a (albeit ratty) 206 for less than that.

The other poster is correct - you’ll want to carry ballast in the rear of either of these when flying solo or two up front.
 
I love my Cherokee 6/260. I’m a low time pilot as well, so I am not used to flying Cirii, Pilatii, or fighter jets, but I don’t think you’ll be disappointed with the power coming from a 172. I have flown 172s, PA28-180, Grumman Tiger, and Traveller. I still feel like I have to make an effort to slow this thing down to pattern speeds.

I had me and my buddy, almost 5 bills total in the front seats and we weren’t even touching shoulders. Had to throw a few cases of water in the rear baggage compartment to keep CG in bounds. I recently took 3 college boys and 150lbs of bags, almost 950lbs total, and full fuel for a trip. No problem climbing out close to sea level, and it was amazing how nice it handled the bumps with the extra weight.

I have no experience with mountain flying, and I don’t have much reason to get into altitudes where I require oxygen. If you need to get up over the mountains I would accept the advice from others about a turbo or 300hp, but you can’t beat the space inside of the PA32. If you can work your way around the mountains the 260 has less fuel burn, significantly cheaper engine overhaul, and slightly more useful load. I had about 120 hours when I purchased it and my insurance was only $2k for $90k coverage. I have over 70 hours in it now and no regrets.
 
ktup-flyer said:
Wet wing Q or R model if he can find one
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Having replaced both bladders in our plane, I don't get the preference for wet-wing models. Nothing wrong with them, but bladder replacements, while a bit of pain, aren't all that expensive and it's a once in ~20+ years expense. If your wet-wing has a leak, while rare, it can be a lot more complicated and expensive to fix.
 
Jeff Oslick said:
Having replaced both bladders in our plane, I don't get the preference for wet-wing models. Nothing wrong with them, but bladder replacements, while a bit of pain, aren't all that expensive and it's a once in ~20+ years expense. If your wet-wing has a leak, while rare, it can be a lot more complicated and expensive to fix.
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I’ve done it. It was under $2500 and hasn’t leaked since. 11000 hours on my plane and that’s the first time the tanks have been touched. I use the extra capacity all the time, too.
 
you have to stagger the front seats to fit in a comanche
 
Comoonche
 
Supereri said:
Ok, soon to be newly minted PPL. Looking to buy my, obviously, first airplane. My budget is up to 165k. I'm not looking to spend it all, but willing to if the right plane comes up. I know insurance will be high. I would consider a less expensive retract possibly.

My mission/desires
  • 8-10 times a year 450nm flights.
  • I'm a big dude 5'10 300 currently. Working on it though.
  • My oldest son is quite tall 6'3, although he has a full time job these days.
  • total payload of about 820 plus fuel.
  • I live in Phoenix and fly to CA quite a bit.
  • Air conditioning would be awesome - a nice to have, not required
  • Turbo for high density altitude - not sure about this. Scared of high mx costs
I really liked the idea of a Mooney, until I sat in one. Cheaper to operate and relatively quick.

Planes currently on my interesting list
  • Cessna 182N+ - prices quite high these days
  • Piper Cherokee 6 260/300 - higher prices and a bit slow for the burn
  • Socata TB-20 - really nice cabin width, concerned about parts costs
  • Bonanza of some sort - so many to choose from. Worried about ruddervators. Some are very affordable
  • Dakota 236 - sat in Cherokee 235 and it felt small. Back seat was tiny. Dakota might be better?

Would love some feedback, maybe even some planes I haven't thought about.

Thanks
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Im 6’2”, 285.

I realize that you’re a newly minted pilot. Anything you buy that will realistically fit your mission will be a complex, high performance aircraft. You’ll need additional training and you’ll pay a lot for insurance, initially.

I’ve got a couple hundred hours in the Cherokee sixes. I’ve got about 250 hours in the Cessna 210. Never been in a Bonanza or a Mooney; they looked smaller inside, and harder to get in and out of. I never really considered either for that reason. Opinions vary, though.

Between the 210 and the Six, I prefer the Cessna. Easier entrance up front. More headroom. More legroom up front. More than adequate leg room for two full grown adults in the back. I can’t touch the rudders if my seat is full back.

Three hours of IFR flight with full IFR reserves leaves you nearly 850 lbs to work with. That’s at an average TAS of 180 mph. Fly higher. Fly faster. If you’ve got any appreciable weight in the rear seats or luggage compartment, you’ll never be out of CG.

Even if you do your homework, know what your insurance costs will be and buy an airplane that has been maintained properly with all AD’s complied with, a complex will still cost you more annually to operate. But it will also give you far more performance and mission options.

If you can afford it, buy what actually works for you now. Otherwise, you’ll end up selling that “starter” airplane, usually after having spent lots of money trying to make it work later.

Whatever you do end up buying, good luck and fly safe.
 
Lot's of great suggestions in this thread. I'm going to put in a call to an insurance agent today and get a dose of reality. Wish me luck.
 
@Supereri yeah, do that. It's a real wake up call. I had to walk away from a sweetheart '69 210 with a 750, new interior, new paint and a recently replaced spar cause the insurance rate was 4x a similarly priced 182.
 
Newly minted PPL? Buy a Beech Sundowner, use the remaining $90k for insurance and pay a visit to the Garmin fairy.


...And give me whatever is left over as a consultant's fee.
 
Picture this. You are clear to land. As you ease the throttle back, your Jacobs engine purrs like a kitten. You gracefully slip in base to final to touch down on the 1000 footers in two point configuration. The tail lowers like the setting sun in Maui, and you taxi off on the first exit. The first exit every time. Tower clears you to preferential parking “with me” so he can ask you what year she is. Rampers are fighting to park you. The FBO girl wants to marry you. They give you the courtesy car for the week, if that is long enough for you. Airport burger is on the house. And you son, I mean Sir. Yes, Sir Cessna 195 owner. You have arrived! Welcome back Sir!

B6115AD4-F685-43AC-9CD0-376A21F2D04A.jpeg
 
texasclouds said:
Picture this. You are clear to land. As you ease the throttle back, your Jacobs engine purrs like a kitten. You gracefully slip in base to final to touch down on the 1000 footers in two point configuration. The tail lowers like the setting sun in Maui, and you taxi off on the first exit. The first exit every time. Tower clears you to preferential parking “with me” so he can ask you what year she is. Rampers are fighting to park you. The FBO girl wants to marry you. They give you the courtesy car for the week, if that is long enough for you. Airport burger is on the house. And you son, I mean Sir. Yes, Sir Cessna 195 owner. You have arrived! Welcome back Sir!

View attachment 106597
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Stop, I can only get *so* aroused.
 
Supereri said:
Hmm, unless you got a line on the winning Powerball ticket and then I could actually afford an airplane.

That being said, I got some insurance quotes. Looks like a C182 P/Q is in my future.
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The Cessna 182 will be a nice plane!

Out of curiosity, was insurance on the other planes prohibitively expensive or did they just decline to offer insurance?
As a newly minted PPL I got shot down outright by several brokerages on some of my more "ambitious" aircraft ideas.
 
Tom Wells said:
The Cessna 182 will be a nice plane!

Out of curiosity, was insurance on the other planes prohibitively expensive or did they just decline to offer insurance?
As a newly minted PPL I got shot down outright by several brokerages on some of my more "ambitious" aircraft ideas.
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I didn't get formal quotes. Parker Woodruff gave me some estimates. I have 2 formal quotes for a 182P. Parker was 50-60% of the first quote I got. If you haven't talked to him yet I would give him a call. I've not purchased through him yet, but he has taken plenty of time to talk with me on multiple occasions.
 
@Tom Wells Ill give you my quotes:

$1600/yr for a VREF $170k 182
$8400/yr for a VREF $170k 210
$4400/yr for a VREF $170 205
$3400/yr for a VREF $140 TB-20

Oddly, a 206 would have been cheaper to insure by $500-600 than the 205. Keep in mind I have the 100hrs in type on a 182, don't on the others. I needed 6 seats, so...
 
The perfect airplane for a newly minted PPL? Rent

IMHO - rent for now, try out several different planes, and after a year you'll have a much, much better idea of what you like and what type of flying you will actually be doing. After my ppl I knew for sure plane X was what I wanted. Then I changed to plane Y after flying a while. Now after a bit more time and several more hours, looking at the flying I actually do, costs, who and how often I fly with others, etc., it's really plane Z.
 
Tom Wells said:
Ouch! :eek:
Those 2 extra seats are just painful on the insurance!
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I don't know if it is the extra seats. Sure, that does increase the price but my issue a few years ago was the fact that they didn't want to insure a 210. I could get some high priced insurance on an Arrow or Mooney but nothing on a 210. That was with 250+ total time, IR and 50 hours in complex. Insurance on a Cherokee 6 wasn't much more than on a PA28.
 
I know a bunch of others mentioned this - CHECK THE INSURANCE on the various models that have been suggested. You may consider getting a plane that is somewhat less than your ideal plane in order to build time. Then once you have several hundred hours and your IR, you can look to upgrade.

I have something you may consider for a "Starter plane" (which is ABSOLUTELY not for sale) - C172N with 180 HP Airplanes conversion. Useful load is about 1,110 pound and over 870 with full fuel. Solid IFR stack since I'm assuming you will be working on your instrument rating. It doesn't have the range you're looking for. But, that would only mean a fuel stop on your longer trips. I usually plan for 115 knots. I'm 250+ lbs and my most frequent passenger is a family member that also my size. I've done 2 NJ to OSH trips with him and there were no issues with comfort.
 
Tom Wells said:
Ouch! :eek:
Those 2 extra seats are just painful on the insurance!
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It's not the 2 extra seats, it's the 210. Too many gear up issues in the fleet. Yes, more seats will add cost but the model itself is cursed as far as insurance is concerned.
 
Yeah, the 210 pricing is because of the retracts. I’ve been told that if you’re low time retract, the insurance companies want your first X number of retract hours, when you’re most dangerous, to be in a less expensive plane so that when you belly it in, they’re repairing a $80k Arrow, not a $300k 210.
 
AA5Bman said:
Yeah, the 210 pricing is because of the retracts. I’ve been told that if you’re low time retract, the insurance companies want your first X number of retract hours, when you’re most dangerous, to be in a less expensive plane so that when you belly it in, they’re repairing a $80k Arrow, not a $300k 210.
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Which is silly because those first hours you're so afraid of doing something stupid you're probably the safest ever.
 
@NealRomeoGolf You’re probably right for the first 10 hours or whatever, but for the first 100?
 
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