Help me spend up to 165k

Supereri

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Supereri
Ok, soon to be newly minted PPL. Looking to buy my, obviously, first airplane. My budget is up to 165k. I'm not looking to spend it all, but willing to if the right plane comes up. I know insurance will be high. I would consider a less expensive retract possibly.

My mission/desires
  • 8-10 times a year 450nm flights.
  • I'm a big dude 5'10 300 currently. Working on it though.
  • My oldest son is quite tall 6'3, although he has a full time job these days.
  • total payload of about 820 plus fuel.
  • I live in Phoenix and fly to CA quite a bit.
  • Air conditioning would be awesome - a nice to have, not required
  • Turbo for high density altitude - not sure about this. Scared of high mx costs
I really liked the idea of a Mooney, until I sat in one. Cheaper to operate and relatively quick.

Planes currently on my interesting list
  • Cessna 182N+ - prices quite high these days
  • Piper Cherokee 6 260/300 - higher prices and a bit slow for the burn
  • Socata TB-20 - really nice cabin width, concerned about parts costs
  • Bonanza of some sort - so many to choose from. Worried about ruddervators. Some are very affordable
  • Dakota 236 - sat in Cherokee 235 and it felt small. Back seat was tiny. Dakota might be better?

Would love some feedback, maybe even some planes I haven't thought about.

Thanks
 
Piper Cherokee 6, or Cessna 205 or 206 if you can find one in your budget. From one somewhat less big dude to another, you’re not going to be very comfortable in many of the planes you listed. 182 is not a bad choice, but for more or less the same dollars you could find a 6/205/206. Insurance is going to be challenging and expensive for the retracts, and I’d err on the conservative side when it comes to systems complexity on a first plane. Hard to know what the rest of your financial picture looks like and while I’m a sucker for turbocharging, a normally aspirated, fixed gear single is hard to beat for a first plane.
 
Commander 114 might be a good option here, if you can find one in that price range. Probably the widest cabin of any piston single (at the expense of slightly lower cruise speed).
 
That's a lot of load before fuel for a small single.

You are not wrong. When one person in a family of 4 weighs in at 300 pounds it adds up quickly. To be completely honest I will likely fly pretty often without 200 of the 820 as my oldest son, who is 21, works full time.
 
Commander 114 might be a good option here, if you can find one in that price range. Probably the widest cabin of any piston single (at the expense of slightly lower cruise speed).

I don't mind a slightly slower speed to gain some comfort. I've been keeping an eye out for the 114, but I haven't seen many available.
 
I don't mind a slightly slower speed to gain some comfort. I've been keeping an eye out for the 114, but I haven't seen many available.
They were certainly produced in much lower volumes than the P/M/C/B brands. In normal environments it seems like there's usually only a dozen openly for sale across the nation. The people that own them love them though.
 
Piper Cherokee 6, or Cessna 205 or 206 if you can find one in your budget. From one somewhat less big dude to another, you’re not going to be very comfortable in many of the planes you listed. 182 is not a bad choice, but for more or less the same dollars you could find a 6/205/206. Insurance is going to be challenging and expensive for the retracts, and I’d err on the conservative side when it comes to systems complexity on a first plane. Hard to know what the rest of your financial picture looks like and while I’m a sucker for turbocharging, a normally aspirated, fixed gear single is hard to beat for a first plane.

I've been training in a 172. It's not ideal, but that's the measuring stick, from a width standpoint, that I've been basing things off. When I do my typical mission, KDVT - KCMA, The difference between say the TB-20 and the Cherokee 6/260 is 15 minutes and 5 gallons. Even something fast like a C-33 Debonair is only a 30 minute and 7 gallons. For that difference I get cheaper insurance (although not sure yet how 6 place compares to retract), lower maintenance, and freedom from most weight concerns(including the ability to take grandpa site seeing).

I haven't really looked at the 205/206 yet. I like the idea of the high wing (except fueling), less than 4 tanks (Cherokee 6), and the doors. I guess it's just been out of concern over hearing about how hard to get insurance is in a 210.
 
I was intrigued when someone said 205/206 same dollars as 182.

Lowest asking price I see for 205/6 is $225k.

I see 182s in the $150-175 range. Maybe that is penny wise pound foolish, but $50-75k is meaningful to me.
 
Pa-32 all day long. 300 horse.

yes it burns a lot of fuel, but anything that will carry that much is going to, and at least you’ll be comfy and not tempted to fly over gross.

if you want cheap get the Mooney and be uncomfortable but save a ton of money (useful load will be problematic)
 
Also, something to think about……

At least my Turbo Lance has a 500 lb front seats limit. So you, plus all your ****t like headset, iPads, etc. PLUS your right seat might very well be banging the rev limiter on station max weights.
 
What did you train in? Thinking high with for ease of entry. The pa32 are in the budget but at 5’10” and 3 bills you are going to have to see how easy it is for you to get in and out.
 
Cessna 177 Cardinal

The only way I'd do that at the boxing weight the OPs family is at, is if has the turbo normalizing mod already done. Otherwise, hell no. Same for my Arrow. These 200hp lawnmowers are pigs on the power loading front.
 
What did you train in? Thinking high with for ease of entry. The pa32 are in the budget but at 5’10” and 3 bills you are going to have to see how easy it is for you to get in and out.
Cessna 172S

I do have some concern with getting in and out of a single front door low wing, but I think I can make do based on my initial test fits of the Mooney and PA28-235
 
Two big boy adults, forget about the BE-33/35 and PA-28 variants. You need cabin width first and foremost. This screams PA-32 variants.

I don't find the cabin tight at all in the BE33 I fly. Actually quite roomy and I like how the Beech sits up high so your legs aren't as straight out as they are in some of the lower seats.
That being said, I fly a Saratoga some as well and it will be hard to beat for the OP's mission. 152TAS LOP with the IO-540, 1400+ lbs usefull load, easy access to rear seats with aft door.....its a flying SUV really.
 
Also, something to think about……

At least my Turbo Lance has a 500 lb front seats limit. So you, plus all your ****t like headset, iPads, etc. PLUS your right seat might very well be banging the rev limiter on station max weights.
I'll check that out.
 
Two big boy adults, forget about the BE-33/35 and PA-28 variants. You need cabin width first and foremost. This screams PA-32 variants.

The PA32 is really really is emerging as the most logical (as logical as this choice could be) choice. That being said there is a big price delta between the 260 and 300. I know the 300 is the preferred choice, especially out west here, but how challenged will the 260 be?
 
The PA32 is really really is emerging as the most logical (as logical as this choice could be) choice. That being said there is a big price delta between the 260 and 300. I know the 300 is the preferred choice, especially out west here, but how challenged will the 260 be?

Consider how power loading works. The 260 is going to be skosh in high DA situations. The only way I take a 260 in your situation is if it has an aftermarket rayjay. Even the 300 I find piggish when loaded. I suppose if your mission is just two up, put some ballast on the 260 and carry on. Understand the price delta exists for a reason. It's not complicated.

ETA: Yeah I'd spring for a turbo installation of some kind if you're a west coaster. Provides much better climb margins. Fuel penalties are overrated given how little fuel people spend on a YOY basis, compared to other costs that are equally inflated (parts and labor in particular).

ETA2: Read my signature line. None of my comments apply to continental engine ownership. The scope of my comments always assumes Lycoming. My bias is on full disclosure.
 
Ok, soon to be newly minted PPL. Looking to buy my, obviously, first airplane. My budget is up to 165k. I'm not looking to spend it all, but willing to if the right plane comes up. I know insurance will be high. I would consider a less expensive retract possibly.

My mission/desires
  • 8-10 times a year 450nm flights.
  • I'm a big dude 5'10 300 currently. Working on it though.
  • My oldest son is quite tall 6'3, although he has a full time job these days.
  • total payload of about 820 plus fuel.
  • I live in Phoenix and fly to CA quite a bit.
  • Air conditioning would be awesome - a nice to have, not required
  • Turbo for high density altitude - not sure about this. Scared of high mx costs
I really liked the idea of a Mooney, until I sat in one. Cheaper to operate and relatively quick.

Planes currently on my interesting list
  • Cessna 182N+ - prices quite high these days
  • Piper Cherokee 6 260/300 - higher prices and a bit slow for the burn
  • Socata TB-20 - really nice cabin width, concerned about parts costs
  • Bonanza of some sort - so many to choose from. Worried about ruddervators. Some are very affordable
  • Dakota 236 - sat in Cherokee 235 and it felt small. Back seat was tiny. Dakota might be better?

Would love some feedback, maybe even some planes I haven't thought about.

Thanks


182RG with 300hp STC.
 
A turbo is a game changer even in the flat lands. I balk at the “only west coasters need a turbo” argument. I’m still climbing at 1000fpm in the teens. An NA would even be able to get there at gross. With as hot as it can get in PHX, you might think about what a Turbo can do for you.
 
Keep in mind as a “newly minted” ppl graduating to a 6 seat retract is going to be an insurance nightmare. I was shocked on how hard it was for me to get insurance as an additional pilot in my friends lance with 250 hours and an IFR cert to beat. Take some of the budget to plan for insurance costs. The 182 or a Cherokee 6/300 non retract might be more affordable to insure
 
Keep in mind as a “newly minted” ppl graduating to a 6 seat retract is going to be an insurance nightmare. I was shocked on how hard it was for me to get insurance as an additional pilot in my friends lance with 250 hours and an IFR cert to beat. Take some of the budget to plan for insurance costs. The 182 or a Cherokee 6/300 non retract might be more affordable to insure
It would be 6 seat or retract. I think the Cherokee 6 is likely going to be what I'm shooting for.
 
It would be 6 seat or retract. I think the Cherokee 6 is likely going to be what I'm shooting for.
It might take you a while to nab one. The PA32s worth anything are selling in hours these days. (I have a Lance)
 
182 P or Q. Biased, but 17-year owner experienced viewpoint. Get it with a larger-that-stock engine (i.e. Pponk Super Eagle, or what is now the Northpoint Aviation XP470) for even better climb performance in the mountains, without the turbo concerns.

Combine with the Trolltune MGTOW STC, will get you around 800+ payload + 75 gal fuel (or trade off some of that massive range for additional payload).

Yeah, their pricey these days, but it's anyone's guess if there will ever be much of a correction in the price from here.
 
I'm at 6'0 255lbs, and my brother is 6'1 285 (my most frequent pax). I bought an arrow (PA-28R-200) and we're able to have a great time flying (had it 18 months now and 220h on it). It's not the most spacious cabin w.r.t shoulder-width, and sure we're brushing shoulders a lot, but my experience is that you kind of forget about that once you're up in the air (assuming you enjoy flying). W&B all works fine for my plane with some ballast in baggage compartment. I'm able to do 300-450nm trips with passengers without any issue at all. But no question that we're ready to stretch our legs when we get there. My older mom/dad, my brothers, friends, etc -- they've never had an issue with comfort in the plane. Climb rate is meager in the summer with a heavy load pax/fuel, but that's probably unavoidable for many single engine piston, non-turbo'd planes.

Advice:
I would advise to really think about how often you're going to have pax. As a newly minted pilot and plane buyer I completely overestimated how often I'd be flying with passengers (I'm 35 and my friends/fam have their own work/family lives). If you think you'll have pax half the time, you might want to place a lot of emphasis on cabin comfort and useful load. But if you're like me, and spend the wide majority of the time flying solo (~80% solo, 15% w/1pax, 5% w/2pax), then I'd just get the aircraft that is the least expensive to own and operate that will still allow you to carry a passenger. That will encourage you to fly a lot and get the most out of it, which is really what matters, especially as someone with a new PPL. Because I can tell you one thing for certain: you're not going to feel good about paying for 15gph in a cherokee 6 300, or a V-Tail bonanza if you're flying alone and have all that extra capacity that's not being used (esp with gas a 6-7$ a gallon!), when you know you could be getting away with a lot less. Also, when you make your insurance payment for those other planes you're going to want to hurl.

Plane pick: I'd probably roll with a 182 for my first plane (and I very nearly did when I bought a plane). It'll be able to haul you and your son without issue, is pretty cheap to operate, easy to fly, has fixed gear and insurance will be cheap. Plus your maintenance will be cheaper than some of the other options. It'll give you a basis to see what you do/don't like, and you can always sell it later an upgrade to something bigger/faster when you have more hours. From an investment POV, I'd think a 182 is about the safest.

Avoidance: I would avoid any complex 6 seater since there was an enormous jump in insurance for those when I looked (for a new pilot). Those 2 extra seats do some real damage. I briefly looked at Lance's in 2020 and insurance was a hard NO on those. Debonair insurance was going to be catastrophic in terms of the number of hours I'd need to fly dual before I could fly it myself.
Note on bonanzas: I have had 2 acquaintances buy older V-Tail bonanza models in the last 1 year. I absolutely love the V-Tails, but I think they've found the planes low sticker price to be for a reason. One of the guys used to fly his cherokee 140 all the time and now never flies. The other was so suspicious of the low price that he went into freakin' closing day calling me with an uneasy feeling that he was missing something (prev owner had just put 35k in avionics into plane that year and was selling it for 60k). He was even talking about "parting-out-the-plane" to recooperate the costs if it didn't work out (and this was AFTER a prebuy). Generally speaking if the price is too good to be true, it usually is. Reminds me, I should check in with him and see if he's got any remorse from buying!

Re: The socata. Never flown one but they look neat. But I would do a lot of research on maintenance costs. Even flying a piper arrow I get sticker shock on some parts and that's a common plane. I imagine it'd be worse for a Socata.

Insurance:
FWIW, my insurance as a pilot in October 2020 with 55 hours and ink still went on the PPL was ~$3600/year for complex/retractable having $85000 covg. For a 182 with same coverage AVEMCO quoted me $1800. The lance quote I got was N/A since they wouldn't insure me!

With my current hours (265 TT, with the bulk in the arrow) has gotten it down to ~$2300. (Non-IR, AOPA, hangared)
 
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I just paid $2500/yr on my T Lance. $115 hull, IR, hangared, AOPA. It’s $600 more this year than the lowest I paid a few years ago. 600TT, 300 in make/model. Insurance was cheapest the second year I owned it. Been going up since then. My Archer was sub $1k for $85k hull.


I'm at 6'0 255lbs, and my brother is 6'1 285 (my most frequent pax). I bought an arrow (PA-28R-200) and we're able to have a great time flying (had it 18 months now and 220h on it). It's not the most spacious cabin w.r.t shoulder-width, and sure we're brushing shoulders a lot, but my experience is that you kind of forget about that once you're up in the air (assuming you enjoy flying). W&B all works fine for my plane with some ballast in baggage compartment. I'm able to do 300-450nm trips with passengers without any issue at all. But no question that we're ready to stretch our legs when we get there. My older mom/dad, my brothers, friends, etc -- they've never had an issue with comfort in the plane. Climb rate is meager in the summer with a heavy load pax/fuel, but that's probably unavoidable for many single engine piston, non-turbo'd planes.

Advice:
I would advise to really think about how often you're going to have pax. As a newly minted pilot and plane buyer I completely overestimated how often I'd be flying with passengers (I'm 35 and my friends/fam have their own work/family lives). If you think you'll have pax half the time, you might want to place a lot of emphasis on cabin comfort and useful load. But if you're like me, and spend the wide majority of the time flying solo (~80% solo, 15% w/1pax, 5% w/2pax), then I'd just get the aircraft that is the least expensive to own and operate that will still allow you to carry a passenger. That will encourage you to fly a lot and get the most out of it, which is really what matters, especially as someone with a new PPL. Because I can tell you one thing for certain: you're not going to feel good about paying for 15gph in a cherokee 6 300, or a V-Tail bonanza if you're flying alone and have all that extra capacity that's not being used (esp with gas a 6-7$ a gallon!), when you know you could be getting away with a lot less. Also, when you make your insurance payment for those other planes you're going to want to hurl.

Plane pick: I'd probably roll with a 182 for my first plane (and I very nearly did when I bought a plane). It'll be able to haul you and your son without issue, is pretty cheap to operate, easy to fly, has fixed gear and insurance will be cheap. Plus your maintenance will be cheaper than some of the other options. It'll give you a basis to see what you do/don't like, and you can always sell it later an upgrade to something bigger/faster when you have more hours. From an investment POV, I'd think a 182 is about the safest.

Avoidance: I would avoid any complex 6 seater since there was an enormous jump in insurance for those when I looked (for a new pilot). Those 2 extra seats do some real damage. I briefly looked at Lance's in 2020 and insurance was a hard NO on those. Debonair insurance was going to be catastrophic in terms of the number of hours I'd need to fly dual before I could fly it myself.
Note on bonanzas: I have had 2 acquaintances buy older V-Tail bonanza models in the last 1 year. I absolutely love the V-Tails, but I think they've found the planes low sticker price to be for a reason. One of the guys used to fly his cherokee 140 all the time and now never flies. The other was so suspicious of the low price that he went into freakin' closing day calling me with an uneasy feeling that he was missing something (prev owner had just put 35k in avionics into plane that year and was selling it for 60k). He was even talking about "parting-out-the-plane" to recooperate the costs if it didn't work out (and this was AFTER a prebuy). Generally speaking if the price is too good to be true, it usually is. Reminds me, I should check in with him and see if he's got any remorse from buying!

Re: The socata. Never flown one but they look neat. But I would do a lot of research on maintenance costs. Even flying a piper arrow I get sticker shock on some parts and that's a common plane. I imagine it'd be worse for a Socata.

Insurance:
FWIW, my insurance as a pilot in October 2020 with 55 hours and ink still went on the PPL was ~$3600/year for complex/retractable having $85000 covg. For a 182 with same coverage AVEMCO quoted me $1800. The lance quote I got was N/A since they wouldn't insure me!

With my current hours (265 TT, with the bulk in the arrow) has gotten it down to ~$2300.
 
I’ll say the same thing I said last time this topic came up. Inject a dose of reality and get an Aztec.
 
3000 gross weight
-1675 empty weight
-540 full fuel (6 hours)
-------
785 payload at 155kts on 13gph and as wide as a PA32 - would that work for ya with only 4 seats?
Everybody always forgets about the comanche.

Probably because Bill Piper wasn't 6'5".
 
I'm at 6'0 255lbs, and my brother is 6'1 285 (my most frequent pax).

As a fellow Arrow II owner, all I can say is oof. You're a better man than I am, and I'm a standard FAA male (5'10" 170). I fix the problem by putting the now 85# 9 y/o and wife in the backseat. The second I put someone on the right seat, it becomes an uncomfortable to torturous experience, depending on the leg length and whether the occupant is large or small. Just keepin' it 100.

At any rate, I am on record for a while stating if pre-restart FG 182s had come with a Lyco, I'd be a lifetime 182 owner.

The other thing that's getting to me is the climb margins in near gross (aka our 3 plus bags) use. I just came back from Rapid City back to Texas with the fam, fuel stop in the high plains of SW KS. And at 5K' DA, a late-game 26kt gusting-cross related go-around on touchdown, it got real sporty with family on board for a second. Was not a happy camper with the paltry climbout. Made it happen, but the fun factor dropped to zero. It finally dawned on me that if we're ever going to fly as a family with a male pre-teen west of Abilene with any frequency, we're gonna need to do something about the DA adjusted power loading of our current rig.

To this day I can't find a T182 for sale to save my life, which is really what I'd need to keep parity with the block times, albeit for a 33% fuel penalty (fuel is cheap to me in the singles, I understand it's more of an inflection point for twin owners). I don't need nor want to haul around a cherokee six for what I need, so that expense is truly extraneous on a per seat basis, insurance costs included. Which is why the 182 is such a sweet spot. I really wish the Arrow had gone with a Lycoming for the turbo, instead of the conti. Oh well, the passive search continues.

Good luck with your Arrow, it's as cheap as they come all things considered. Cannot complain about cost in the 9 years I've owned mine, ERAU-related externalities notwithstanding. Cheers.
 
I’ll say the same thing I said last time this topic came up. Inject a dose of reality and get an Aztec.
Dose of reality back. They won’t even quote you these days without 200 hours twin time.
 
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