Help me pick a plane (UPDATE: PICKED ONE)

[chemgeek]

600 miles is only 521nm, that can becovered in 4 hours at 115knots.

RV-12s are trading for around $60K with glass panels. Add a GNX175, and you have an IFR panel for under $70K.

In practice, one would almost never be able to cover 600 sm straight line in 4 hours @115 kt when accounting for headwinds, IFR or non-direct routing, and climb to altitude. You would need closer to 130 kt cruise to deal with a typical 10 kt headwind component, plus maybe 10-20% more than that to make up for extra distance for IFR routing or deviation from direct routing. Plus a 5 full hours of fuel capacity at that cruise setting, accounting for taxi and climb fuel, to have adequate reserves. It's a rare day that I will not have a headwind component on a trip.

 

[GeorgeC]

Have any of you actually flown in an RV12 for that duration? My one flight was fun, but that wasn't an airplane I wanted to take to Florida.

I found 3.5 hours in an LSA to be more than enough, and the choices were either going "fast" down low and getting bumped around the whole way, or going 90kts at a comfortable altitude due to headwinds.

 

[Adam Weiss]

Have any of you actually flown in an RV12 for that duration? My one flight was fun, but that wasn't an airplane I wanted to take to Florida. Moroeover, no RV is going to accommodate all the crap taken by your average female for your average trip. RVs are great planes, but they aren't for everything.

Man, I hate sounding like an RV fanboy, but here goes:

After years of whittling through performance specs, expenses, and my mission, I was dead set on getting an M20E. For the two seats I need, I couldn’t see how to beat the speed and economy. Until I found an RV-9A that is.

I’m faster than a Mooney on less fuel, and fixed gear. My insurance is $900/yr, and annuals are $1200. I’ve had absolutely no MX issues. It’s a simple plane.
The wife and I take 100lbs of baggage on long XC all the time. 100lbs is a TON of baggage. This is my perfect IFR XC machine.

 

[EdFred]

100lbs is a TON of baggage. This is my perfect IFR XC machine.

Until you fly to a bowling tournament and bring along 12 bowling balls between the two of you, plus all the other weekend gear. Baggage area was maxxed on weight (200lbs) and still had to put the 4th bag on the back seat.

 

[Adam Weiss]

Until you fly to a bowling tournament and bring along 12 bowling balls between the two of you, plus all the other weekend gear. Baggage area was maxxed on weight (200lbs) and still had to put the 4th bag on the back seat.

12 balls?! Wow!

 

[Bill]

12 balls?! Wow!

What Ed lacks in size he makes up in numbers.

 

[EdFred]

12 balls?! Wow!

Didn't help my partner, but I had high game for tourney weekend.

 

[Adam Weiss]

What Ed lacks in size he makes up in numbers.

Bwahahah

 

[Ed Haywood]

Getting ready to put a deposit down tomorrow. Anyone who followed this discussion is going to laugh their butt off. MTF

 

[Kristin]

I have a soft spot in my heart for the Arrow's, especially the Arrow II, and I like the Cardinals a lot, but I love a 180 or 250 Comanche for your mission. Speed, range, good IFR platform, very well protected from corrosion and one of the strongest airframes available. There is also a great Comanche community in Florida and mechanics who actually know how to work on them.

 

[Ed Haywood]

So ...

after careful analysis of my mission, development of selection criteria, and consideration of specific models against those criteria .....

.....................

I am buying an airplane which meets none of my criteria (except price range) and performs my mission with marginal acceptability.

But I want it, and it will make me happy. I am 55, and my Dad is in poor health, and I just realized you don't always get advance warning that you will no longer be able to do the stuff you want to do.

I went to sleep last night dreaming of loops.

 

[Skyrys62]

I am 55, and my Dad is in poor health, and I just realized you don't always get advance warning that you will no longer be able to do the stuff you want to do.

Congrats on the plane... And you are exactly right. Those missed opportunities don't come back around. Ask me how I know.

 

[zaitcev]

Until I found an RV-9A that is.

How much did you pay for it?

 

[Adam Weiss]

How much did you pay for it?

$70K

 

[Pugs]

I doubt a fractional or leasing arrangement would work. I feel I need the kind of scheduling flexibility that only sole ownership or perhaps a small partnership can provide.

Searching mostly on TAP. Where else should I be looking?

Where you live is filled with airports. Start to haunt them looking for someone who has a Bonaza-Lance-210-231 that flies very little. Talk to every FBO or A&P who you can corner and ask. "Hey, looking for a partner in a _____ that doesn''t fly much" some A&P is going to know an older person with an F-33 Bonanza or similar traveling plane you need that came in for annual that got 10 hours on it last year.

With the right partner your money just got you a true traveling plane and once the partner loses interest you've got a buy out for reasonable as they know it's going to a good home.

 

[steingar]

Man, I hate sounding like an RV fanboy, but here goes:

After years of whittling through performance specs, expenses, and my mission, I was dead set on getting an M20E. For the two seats I need, I couldn’t see how to beat the speed and economy. Until I found an RV-9A that is.

I’m faster than a Mooney on less fuel, and fixed gear. My insurance is $900/yr, and annuals are $1200. I’ve had absolutely no MX issues. It’s a simple plane.
The wife and I take 100lbs of baggage on long XC all the time. 100lbs is a TON of baggage. This is my perfect IFR XC machine.

You can't buy an IFR capable RV for Mooney money unless the RV is a wreck or minimally capable. Flying my wife back from Michigan I filled the luggage bay and back seat with her stuff. Couldn't do that in an RV.

 

[eman1200]

So ...

after careful analysis of my mission, development of selection criteria, and consideration of specific models against those criteria .....

.....................

I am buying an airplane which meets none of my criteria (except price range) and performs my mission with marginal acceptability.

But I want it, and it will make me happy. I am 55, and my Dad is in poor health, and I just realized you don't always get advance warning that you will no longer be able to do the stuff you want to do.

I went to sleep last night dreaming of loops.

Did you actually buy it?

 

[Skyrys62]

Flying my wife back from Michigan I filled the luggage bay and back seat with her stuff. Couldn't do that in an RV.

True... there is always the option to ship things if those occasions are rare though.
But, they would need to be rare, or that could get annoying for sure.

 

[Ed Haywood]

Did you actually buy it?

Made deposit this morning, working on scheduling pre-buy.

 

[CRQFlier]

Super D = Super fun.

Sent from my SM-T380 using Tapatalk

 

[Ed Haywood]

Yeah, very excited. I have about 100 hours in a Super D, and had one in a partnership for a few years so I know the plane. I am very comfortable flying it, and I know what to look for on maintenance. I would be totally clueless trying to assess the value of an Arrow or a Mooney, but wood spars and fabric covers I get. This is one of those "sometimes the right airplane finds you" stories.

This is also the proverbial "bargain" airplane that everyone warns against. But the issues are not hidden; they are readily apparent. I know what I'm getting into, and the potential downsides are priced into the sale. Seller is very reasonable about the pre-buy and deposit is small enough that it wouldn't bother me too much if I have to walk away. If everything is acceptable, I'm getting a lot of airplane for the money.

XC is nothing to brag about, but it can do reasonable trips. The narrow fuselage offsets some of the drag from the struts and wires. Book says 141 mph with 3.4 hours endurance at 75% power and 1100 ROC. I'll break my trips from Tampa to Gulfport or Wilmington into two 2.5 hour legs with a fuel stop in the middle, preferably at a grass strip or somewhere with good eats.

In return for reduced XC capability, I get the capability to invite business contacts for something way cooler than a round of golf.

Biggest issue of course is lack of IFR capability. TBH I was deluding myself on my intentions to get the ticket though. No way I'm going to find time to study for the written in the next year or two. But as I said earlier, my schedule is usually pretty flexible. I generally travel the day before a meeting, so if the weather is a last minute No Go, I'll just make the 10 hour drive instead of the 5 hour flight.

I am strongly considering replacing the TC with a G5 AI, in case I do wind up in the clouds by accident. There is also space for a panel mount GPS like a refurb 430, though I'm not sure what advantage I would gain from that over Garmin Pilot on a tablet with my GDL 50 for traffic and weather.

Thanks to all for your advice and input, even if I mostly ignored it.

 

[Salty]

Enjoy. No matter what your choice there would be pros and cons. If it makes you lose sleep thinking about the fun you’ll have flying it, you made the right choice IMO.

 

[Stan Cooper]

It makes you happy so it's a great choice! Congratulations.

 

[GRG55]

So ...

after careful analysis of my mission, development of selection criteria, and consideration of specific models against those criteria ...

...I am buying an airplane which meets none of my criteria (except price range) and performs my mission with marginal acceptability.

Did you actually buy it?

Made deposit this morning, working on scheduling pre-buy.

Congrats!! Hope everything works out during the pre-buy.
It will be a LOT of fun to fly, as you already know. With the added bonus that you can go about "meeting none of your criteria" inverted.

 

[aftCG]

Way to go. I was scrolling along looking at replies waiting to see if anyone said what I was thinking, (no one did) and then I see what you bought.

Before I saw that my question was "how are you getting there now?". If it's via people slug then your new for 2020 justification of avoiding Corona is as good as any. I always say "justify" and "aviation" cannot be in the same sentence anyway, so there's that. I learned to fly so I could, uh, spend as much of my life as I could with a stick in my hand. So I do.

However, if you're currently driving then ANY airplane beats the crap out of driving. I own a Citabria and often fly with it pulled back at 2200-2300 rpm and sipping gas at 100mph. It turns my 3-3.5 hour drive to the middle of eastern Washington into 1:20-1:30 most days.

As a motorcycle rider the comfort level of my primitive plane (the seats don't have any adjustments and the cabin can be drafty) doesn't even enter my mind.

For those days when the mountains say "no" to my strictly VFR aircraft I get in my all weather capable SUV and go.

So, FIKI SR22 or Ovation be damned. Even a Cherokee 180 will do damn near double the posted speed limit and be nearly direct.

I've had my Citabria 3+ years now. I go out after work some days and do a few laps of the pattern, then put it away and go home with a smile on my face. I would NEVER do that if I had a 172. I also find many practical and impractical uses for it.

I say "well done"!

 

[Ed Haywood]

Before I saw that my question was "how are you getting there now?".

I say "well done"!

Thanks!

Usually it is a mix of comm air and driving. Coronavirus was the main impetus to look at a plane, because it makes comm air for local trips less appealing. I don't mind driving, in fact I enjoy it, but the last few trips kicked my rear end.

However, once I started looking hard, I realized that I was going to have to pay more than I wanted to pay for a decent IFR capable aircraft, or accept compromises and risks I wasn't comfortable with. If I wait a year or two, my financial situation may change to the point where I can justify paying $100-150K for a better platform.

Citabrias are great planes. Almost a perfect combination of economy and performance. Also looked hard at 150 HP Decathlons. However, since I will be reimbursed for gas, I'm glad that I'm going with the extra HP of the Super D.

Found a local shop with competence in wood spars and fabric covering, so everything is lining up nicely.

Is your spar metal or wood?

 

[aftCG]

I have the original wood spars. IA always tells me they're beautiful. If I ever have to replace them I'll use Rainbow Ron wood spars

 

[red4golf]

So ...

after careful analysis of my mission, development of selection criteria, and consideration of specific models against those criteria .....

.....................

I am buying an airplane which meets none of my criteria (except price range) and performs my mission with marginal acceptability.

But I want it, and it will make me happy. I am 55, and my Dad is in poor health, and I just realized you don't always get advance warning that you will no longer be able to do the stuff you want to do.

I went to sleep last night dreaming of loops.

well done!

Your reasoning is perfect in my mind as well. I'm 45 and lost my 74 year old dad 9 years ago to cancer that the Dr said was beat. He died less than a year from his planned retirement (he worked for a space company and did it because he loved it and was healthy) so he and my mom could travel in style without money worries. She now suffers from dementia. I was in Iraq from 04 to 05 and 08 to 09 and retired less than a year ago from a combat arms position (M1 Tank Commander/gun truck gunner & commander/VIP security team lead) after nearly 24 years and deployments to other lovely vacation spots like Bosnia and Macedonia in the 90's. The life decisions I've made because of those experiences mean I live in a crap house but can fly, scuba dive, have a Harley and take my kids for rides, my 7 year old has been to 13 countries and my 4 year old has been to 8 or 9. I've been following your quest with interest and have flown many of the planes you have asked about but I'd be lying if I didn't applaud you for picking the fun option.

Have fun, enjoy your choice and give the finger to those that disagree while inverted!

 

[frfly172]

Congrats go out and have fun.

 

[Ed Haywood]

Same here on the

well done!

I was in Iraq from 04 to 05 and 08 to 09 and retired less than a year ago from a combat arms position (M1 Tank Commander/gun truck gunner & commander/VIP security team lead) after nearly 24 years and deployments to other lovely vacation spots like Bosnia and Macedonia in the 90's.

Thanks brother. I am retired Army as well. Finished my 20 in '08. Infantry and SF. Got my PP from the Fort Bragg Aero Club while in the Q Course.

One thing I'll say from experience that you are about to find out: TriCare is really, really valuable. I shudder to think of the tens of thousands I would have spent on ruptured appendixes, broken bones, and other mayhem that my two sons experienced after I retired. Not to mention MRI's and PT for all the orthopedic damage we did to ourselves.

 

[hindsight2020]

349 weeks, 2 days, 7 hours and 30 minutes, or 2,445 points to go to my single payer life boat....not that I'm counting or anything

 

[Ghery]

Wondering why folks don't think the Arrow would be ok for this? Seems like a lot of recommendations for Mooney, 177 and 182, but why not the earlier Arrows? You should be able to get one in that price range with a mid-time engine and ok avionics, I would think.

Now that you've chosen your plane, what I was going to say here is immaterial. That said, our club used to have a 1969 Arrow and still has a 1976 C-182. The 182 was faster by 2 or 3 knots and was (is) most definitely more comfortable.

However, if you're currently driving then ANY airplane beats the crap out of driving. I own a Citabria and often fly with it pulled back at 2200-2300 rpm and sipping gas at 100mph. It turns my 3-3.5 hour drive to the middle of eastern Washington into 1:20-1:30 most days.

Where is eastern Washington? We live just outside Olympia and it's a 5.5 to 6 hour drive to Pullman.