Help me buy a 182

iflyvfr

iflyvfr

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Greg
I flew to look at a '69 182M yesterday. Paint is 1.5 YO, seats are great. TTAF < 4000 hrs. The rest of the plane would be an exercise in modernization and pride of ownership. Motor has 500 more hours on it than advertised. Cosmetics are absent meaning the panel and interior is otherwise a mess. The basic steam gauges are there, but other than an ancient but functional Cessna 400 autopilot and a Garmin 340 audio panel, there's nothing noteworthy.

Owner showed me a VRef of 70.6 k. While I'm interested in the plane - I guess for 70k I was expecting more than lipstick on a mid-time pig.

Any suggestions on how to proceed? He pushed back on the idea of my mechanic doing a pre-buy and suggested his on field A&P do that instead. There are some maintenance issues that are barking for attention as well which I'm happy to elaborate on if there's any interest.
 
Normally I'm in the "you're never going to find the perfect plane, just buy it" boat, but not allowing an independent pre-buy? That's a bit much, 182's are costly planes (especially now) so the price might not be ridiculous. Although 182s are expensive, there are a lot of them, this one might not be right.
 
182's are PROUD right now. I would think if that's really what you want, just based on what they're going for vs an old vtail with similar useful load.

I can't speak as to value/market price, but I'll say that I'd be concerned about the "no prebuy". If anything, maybe having it done by your guy in his hangar could work? I know i'd be hesitant as an owner to let someone take my plane off into unknown shops for prebuy, but he should allow your expert to look at it.

it's also funny to me that engine TSMOH is off by 500 hours, since that's one of the major drivers of price
 
MIFlyer said:
182's are PROUD right now. I would think if that's really what you want, just based on what they're going for vs an old vtail with similar useful load.

I can't speak as to value/market price, but I'll say that I'd be concerned about the "no prebuy". If anything, maybe having it done by your guy in his hangar could work? I know i'd be hesitant as an owner to let someone take my plane off into unknown shops for prebuy, but he should allow your expert to look at it.

it's also funny to me that engine TSMOH is off by 500 hours, since that's one of the major drivers of price
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182 and V tail are wayyyy different airplanes, and an old one wont carry what a 182 will, especially without cg issues.
 
182s (and 180s and 172s) seem to be going for some rather elevated prices right now.
 
unsafervguy said:
Move on, if he won't allow an independent pre buy he's worried. There are other planes for sale.
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He did seem a little unnerved by my request. I'm happy to fly my mechanic in and do it on the field, but no way am I taking his A&P's word on it. This is a private airport with very few planes on the field, a small, likely tight-knit community.
 
ktup-flyer said:
182 and V tail are wayyyy different airplanes, and an old one wont carry what a 182 will, especially without cg issues.
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they are different, but you've got to consider

same useful
modern avionics
similar price once he puts any kind of avionics in it https://www.bonanza.org/aircraft-index/browse-by-type/bonanza/bonanza-p35/

https://www.controller.com/listings...=P35+BONANZA&mdlx=Contains&qss=1&FullText=p35

1300lb useful
170kt cruise vs 140kt
1050ft takeoff ground roll vs 795 for the 182

don't get me wrong. I own part of a 182 and it's a GREAT airplane, but if I was buying today, I'd be hard pressed to pay such a huge premium
 
I have been watching 182 prices for a long time. Right now they are elevated and sort of rediculous. I’d wait until after Jan 2020, those without ADS B will probably come down. Although with the issues on the Ruddervators on the Bo’s, it might keep the prices up on the 182’s.

If he won’t let an independent AnP do the pre-buy, time to walk.
 
MIFlyer said:
they are different, but you've got to consider

same useful
modern avionics
similar price once he puts any kind of avionics in it https://www.bonanza.org/aircraft-index/browse-by-type/bonanza/bonanza-p35/

https://www.controller.com/listings...=P35+BONANZA&mdlx=Contains&qss=1&FullText=p35

1300lb useful
170kt cruise vs 140kt
1050ft takeoff ground roll vs 795 for the 182

don't get me wrong. I own part of a 182 and it's a GREAT airplane, but if I was buying today, I'd be hard pressed to pay such a huge premium
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Show me an old Bonanza with somewhat modern avionics with a 1300lb useful load.
 
MIFlyer said:
182's are PROUD right now. I would think if that's really what you want, just based on what they're going for vs an old vtail with similar useful load.

I can't speak as to value/market price, but I'll say that I'd be concerned about the "no prebuy". If anything, maybe having it done by your guy in his hangar could work? I know i'd be hesitant as an owner to let someone take my plane off into unknown shops for prebuy, but he should allow your expert to look at it. it's also funny to me that engine TSMOH is off by 500 hours, since that's one of the major drivers of price
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Agreed, that's a non-starter for me as well. If he says 'no' then the deal is done and I got the privilege of additional hours in my logbook and witnessing some of the midwest flooding that's occurring.

The engine was purchased and installed with <350 hours on it SMOH by TCM back in 2005. But there was a problem with oil pressure, so at 350 hours a well-known mechanic (now deceased) R&R the motor. Because the current owner chose to keep a nearly new accessory on the motor to save money, it could not be Zero timed. Hence the discrepancy according to the current owner.
 
Rcmutz said:
I have been watching 182 prices for a long time. Right now they are elevated and sort of rediculous. I’d wait until after Jan 2020, those without ADS B will probably come down. Although with the issues on the Ruddervators on the Bo’s, it might keep the prices up on the 182’s. If he won’t let an independent AnP do the pre-buy, time to walk.
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Yep, you bring up an interesting issue. Hypothetically, if I wanted to fly this back to my Class D after purchasing it post 2020 and without ADS-B, can I get an exemption? Sort of like landing at a Delta without radios - permissible if you call ahead and arrange your arrival ahead of time.
 
iflyvfr said:
Yep, you bring up an interesting issue. Hypothetically, if I wanted to fly this back to my Class D after purchasing it post 2020 and without ADS-B, can I get an exemption? Sort of like landing at a Delta without radios - permissible if you call ahead and arrange your arrival ahead of time.
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uuuuhhhhh....you don't need ADSB-Out to operate in Delta. You're home free son. :D
 
iflyvfr said:
...The engine was purchased and installed with <350 hours on it SMOH by TCM back in 2005. But there was a problem with oil pressure, so at 350 hours a well-known mechanic (now deceased) R&R the motor. Because the current owner chose to keep a nearly new accessory on the motor to save money, it could not be Zero timed. Hence the discrepancy according to the current owner.
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When did external accessories have anything to do with overhauling an engine, and resetting the TBO clock? Maybe the internal accessory drive mechanism(s), but not the external bolt on stuff. Methinks he's trying to explain away something else, like a prop strike.
 
GRG55 said:
When did external accessories have anything to do with overhauling an engine, and resetting the TBO clock? Maybe the internal accessory drive mechanism(s), but not the external bolt on stuff. Methinks he's trying to explain away something else, like a prop strike.
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I've been wracking my brain trying to remember what part it was that was nearly new that prevented it from being labelled an zero-time OH. I chose the wrong word, it was something internal to the engine, sorry.
 
ktup-flyer said:
Show me an old Bonanza with somewhat modern avionics with a 1300lb useful load.
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Forget the merits of the 182's UL et al, the tail issue makes the entire comparison talk a moot point. Until they resolve the magnesium skin provider, this entire comparative narrative is vaporware from where I sit. To each their own; I wouldn't touch a 35 right now with a 10 foot pole.
 
hindsight2020 said:
Forget the merits of the 182's UL et al, the tail issue makes the entire comparison talk a moot point. Until they resolve the magnesium skin provider, this entire comparative narrative is vaporware from where I sit. To each their own; I wouldn't touch a 35 right now with a 10 foot pole.
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Unless you buy a runout spare with a shot engine to get spares. I agree,prices might go down though


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MIFlyer said:
Garmin 750. Only 1000 useful but the mpg is better than the 182 to offset some of that. Also, some of 182 useful is takeoff only, not landing weight.
https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/31503123/1962-beechcraft-p35-bonanza


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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Yea, you'll never find a 35 Bonanza with 1300lbs UL. My 182 is 1305 for takeoff and 1155 for landing. The Bonanza is about 20-30kts faster, but the cabin is a little tight. Tradeoffs for everything.
 
its a bummer they never made an STC to retrofit lycomings into conti powered fg 182s. S and T pricing is nutty.
 
My V35 has a useful load of 1280 and I'm in the process of removing at least 20lbs of old avionics. GAMI also recently made available an STC that adds a minimum of 180lbs to the useful load, which would bring my V35 up to 1,460 useful. It might be hard to use all that though depending on the CG of the airplane in question though, you might need to add a belly locker under the engine or something, heh.
 
That's pretty much how I explained it to my wife. He's an older gentleman but has owned a dozen or more different types through the years, so unsure why he would be hesitant to have someone else give it a look see. I know I wouldn't if/when it comes time to sell mine. There's going to be earnest money on deposit for sure, but I'm proud of the way I've maintained my plane. This plane sits outside tied down on the grass, which leads to this which I didn't care to see: IMG_1807.jpg IMG_1806.jpg
 
If you’re willing to spend the large amount of time and large sum of money to get it from where it seems to be condition-wise to where you eventually envision it, make sure you consider the surprises you will inevitably find and the time, cost, and downtime. Then factor in the “no pre-buy” contribution to all of the above. And from that make him an offer.

Or

Go see it again and bring your mechanic along as a “friend to help you re-evaluate the value” while he actually does the prebuy. If it’s as bad as you say it is, it shouldn’t take long to come up with a dollar figure to know whether $70k is crazy.

Or walk.
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
If you’re willing to spend the large amount of time and large sum of money to get it from where it seems to be condition-wise to where you eventually envision it, make sure you consider the surprises you will inevitably find and the time, cost, and downtime. Then factor in the “no pre-buy” contribution to all of the above. And from that make him an offer.

Or

Go see it again and bring your mechanic along as a “friend to help you re-evaluate the value” while he actually does the prebuy. If it’s as bad as you say it is, it shouldn’t take long to come up with a dollar figure to know whether $70k is crazy.

Or walk.
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Well, the plane is 500 Nms away which makes that more difficult and he wants money down to hold it which is not unreasonable. So I thought I'd make him an offer contingent upon the prebuy inspection and results and see if he accepts. I've spent a large amount of time and money getting my current 172 where I want it, so I get that part and would price that in accordingly.
 
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A "no pre-buy" only works for people who are buying & selling in numbers to amortize the risk.
 
Why is this conversation still going. This one is simple. No pre-buy on a $70k 182? Okay - see ya. Done.
 
After looking at this thread about how high 182’s are, I went to Controller and holy cow have the asking prices jumped!! I couldn’t believe the pricing with original or 20 year old avionics!! I like my little Q better each day!
 
N747JB said:
After looking at this thread about how high 182’s are, I went to Controller and holy cow have the asking prices jumped!! I couldn’t believe the pricing with original or 20 year old avionics!! I like my little Q better each day!
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We bought one about a week before the new Garmin, Trutrak, and Trio autopilots started to blow up the forums lol. Now you have the G3X and other new stuff to look at.
 
An acquaintance listed his 182 turbo recently and it unexpectedly left him without an airplane because it sold immediately.
 
182 purchases and avionics, if you want a G3X that will require a boat load of metal panel work buy a later 182 where the whole pilot's panel is held in with 10? screws >1970?. Older (large) panels are riveted in, have some angles and doublers that make it seem a lot less practical to put a G3X (or similar) into IMHO. The G5s and Aspens can fit into those airplanes with riveted-in panels.
 
What comes up also comes down. Winners and losers abound. Things rebound, roles reversed. I wouldn't get too giddy on these price bubbles. We ve seen similar dynamics in the mid 00s. We re not even into the fall. Mark my words. If you can afford it and think your income is recession proof, by all means contribute to the run up. Just understand what part of the market sine wave you're buying on. Caveat emptor.
 
steingar said:
Whatsa matter with the Skycathalon?
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Nothing but speed and payload. Wife says it's too small and uncomfortable, she wants more elbow room. But what I'm seeing on the market are airplanes with junk in the panel and trashed interiors on mid-time or greater motors. Anything else is out of my price range. I think I'll be patient.

I made the seller a lowish offer and he replied "no thanks!!" I breathed a sigh of relief and have moved on. I do appreciate the tips about other planes for sale so please feel free to PM me!
 
Not sure if it’s in your eyesight but would a Cherokee 6 fit the bill??
 
Find another. My mechanic refuses to do prebuys for another on a plane he maintains due to conflict of interest.

I wanted a citabria a few years ago and an older one with new engine, cover, and metal structure wings was around $40k. Now they are $60-70 in just a couple years. That’s insane.
 
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