Help! House got flooded, need plumbing advice

[Rushie]

Left Friday for weekend vacation. Returned Monday to see water flowing out of all the doors, front, back and garage. Entire house 1" - 2" deep in water from broken supply line into a toilet tank. The flexible hose sprayed back and forth for what the plumber believes was two days. It ate through the drywall behind the toilet, then ate through the drywall of my office, sprayed up into the back of my computer, over the monitors, soaking my keyboard, bills, papers, and shorting out my UPS (power supply), shot burn marks out from that, (we are lucky the house didn't burn down).

The damage is "major" according to the adjusters. Preliminary estimate over $40,000 and we will need to live elsewhere for two months. Our insurance company had a team there within one hour. They got to work and we're in a hotel at the moment.

The plumber came and fixed the "leak" (see picture). According to what we have put together from all sources, here's what happened. A couple of weeks ago the city came through and replaced all the old style meters with new "smart" meters. This means the data is sent to them, they no longer need meter readers to go around. I don't know what all else a "smart" meter does but according to the plumber, it can result in water pressure being higher than before. He measured the pressure, it is 75 - 80 psi coming into our house from the meter. He says we want about 50. He believes the high pressure plus maybe the fitting was old or worn or overtightened, or cheap Chinese or otherwise compromised, resulted in the blowout.

So he's scheduled to come back Friday and install a pressure regulator that will bring our incoming down to 50 psi.

I don't know much about plumbing so my question is, is 50 psi what we want? Was 75 too high? Or is this plumber using the situation to get more money from us? And is it common for 75 to blow out fittings like this? Are we doing the right thing to bring it down to 50 or will water come out of the faucet too slow? (My mom has this problem after they put a pressure reducer on her house.)

And if the pressure was too high, can we go to the city and say, you did this? I already asked our insurance adjuster that question. He said, they can almost never get anything out of a municipality. They will deny responsibility and it is hard to prove. There was only one case he knew of where they were able to successfully get money back from a city for damages and that was a case where 6 homes along one street blew lines, and it was easier to point to the cause. But I got the idea in our case they won't attempt to pursue it.

Anybody have insight into this issue?

 

[Sac Arrow]

The replacement meter didn't cause the pressure to shoot up. "Standard' service pressure is usually targeted around 60 - 65 psi and 80 psi isn't out of line. Obviously something broke, but it shouldn't have at that pressure, and it probably would have broke at 50 psi. Also the pressure normally varies due to demands, and pressure setpoint differentials on pumping stations.

 

[rtk11]

Wow - sorry to read, Rushie. That sucks and you'll want to stay out of the house for a while since they will need to dehumidfy the house, the studs, flooring... it'll be loud and inconvenient.

Water pressure, from what I've experienced should be no higher than 75-80 psi. So your water pressure is probably OK. But did the pressure spike when the city turned the water back on? Alternatively, there's a "water hammer" effect when air is trapped in pipes and that can cause issues with piping and connectors.

I think you're going to be best served by letting your insurance company pursue the city if there's reason to do so. They have far deeper pockets than you to try to recover the costs. Otherwise, just rely upon the insurance company to cover your losses.

When we had a water leak issue (pipe to shower head cracked behind the wall), we had to have our wood floors replaced on the floor below since all the water flowed down into the living room, drywall redone upstairs, downstairs, bathroom... and we declined moving out as we thought it would be a fairly quick repair. 4 months later, the job was just about complete, and even then, that took a lot of hands-on time from my wife to chase the contractors, watch the work, ensure the right materials were being installed... just a lot of work and hassle.

 

[coloradobluesky]

I had something like that on the inlet to a toilet once. They break. Shouldnt matter on the insurance. If the insurance wants to go after the company that made it, let them. Doesnt involve you really. New plumbing can affect the old plumbing in negative ways. Sort of like you replace a water pump then the radiator starts leaking.

 

[Clark1961]

There are some topography problems around my house and it's at a low elevation relatively to most other homes. The incoming water pressure was about 125 psi prior to the water main replacement last year. Now the pressure is about 115. I think the water district had some supply problems and addressed them by running high pressure. The main replacement did include increasing the diameter.

I put a regulator on the supply line a couple years after I moved in and run the house at about 75. I've read that 75 is sort of an upper limit for appliances. Dunno how true that is. I did replace the flex lines and fill valves on the toilets when I moved in. The old ones were generally in poor condition to my eye and replacement lines are cheap. The quiet-fill valves are a few bucks more but they last forever and require no adjustment.

Final note is to mention the flex lines on the clothes and dish washers. Periodic inspection is a good idea. I have no idea on when replacement is suggested but figure it is cheap to do when replacing or servicing the appliance.

 

[NealRomeoGolf]

Sorry to hear of your issue. This is why I shut toilets off at the valve when we go away for more than a day or two.

 

[FredFenster]

Final note is to mention the flex lines on the clothes and dish washers. Periodic inspection is a good idea. I have no idea on when replacement is suggested but figure it is cheap to do when replacing or servicing the appliance.

I replaced my washing machine hoses a few months ago. Rubber hoses, barely 4 years old and one hose looked like a giant bratwurst, about 3 times bigger than the other. Replaced them both with stainless. Never thought about the dishwasher, time to check that one!

 

[PaulS]

Sorry for your problems, but I think your issue is more junk plastic than the city. I very much dislike plastic in places where failure can cause damage, but that is the direction plumbing is headed. I'm going to check all my toilet connections after I post this.

 

[AggieMike88]

Sorry to hear of your issue. This is why I shut toilets off at the valve when we go away for more than a day or two.

I'll do that plus cut it off at the street.

 

[Rushie]

Wow - sorry to read, Rushie. That sucks and you'll want to stay out of the house for a while since they will need to dehumidfy the house, the studs, flooring... it'll be loud and inconvenient.

Yes that is going on now. The house is unlivable. They have piled all the furniture together and stuff on top of beds and tore out four feet of sheet rock and insulation on all the exterior walls. They've cut out sheetrock from some of the interior walls as well and removed all the baseboards, many of the doors are swollen and ruined, the cabinet bases are ruined but the cabinets themselves are solid wood, not particle board, so we may be able to just have a carpenter build new bases. We like the cabinets and don't want to completely redo the kitchen, plus the same cabinets with book shelves are in the living room and along one wall in my office.

All the carpet has been pulled out and trashed, they are drying the concrete floor. They've started packing our stuff into boxes to move everything into storage while they redo the interior. The entire interior will need to be repainted. A lot of furniture is damaged, and area rugs, and most of my office furniture as well as my computer that I built myself. Perhaps only the motherboard is fried, and it can be restored. The "mitigation company" doing the drying and demolition referred me to a good computer repair company. I could do it myself but can't take the time at this point aside from having no work space anywhere.

.....

When we had a water leak issue (pipe to shower head cracked behind the wall), we had to have our wood floors replaced on the floor below since all the water flowed down into the living room, drywall redone upstairs, downstairs, bathroom... and we declined moving out as we thought it would be a fairly quick repair. 4 months later, the job was just about complete, and even then, that took a lot of hands-on time from my wife to chase the contractors, watch the work, ensure the right materials were being installed... just a lot of work and hassle.

Wow, then you know right where I'm coming from. The only thing I feel good about is it's only stuff, and a house. If I have to have a disaster far better this than an injury or serious diagnosis.

They're estimating two months we'll be in an apartment, and based on what you said and just life experience, I'm expecting it'll go on most of the summer.

So far the insurance company has been fantastic. They had the team at the house one hour after I called them. Every person on the phone has been friendly and considerate, taken lots of time to explain stuff and no phone trees or wait times at all.

Sorry to hear of your issue. This is why I shut toilets off at the valve when we go away for more than a day or two.

Wish we had. It still would have happened but far less damage if we'd caught it a lot sooner. We had shut off the water to the washing machine and to the two water heaters. Never thought about the toilets. Will from now on. In fact we are having an accessible box installed around the whole house shutoff out by the meter. It was buried in dirt.

 

[Sac Arrow]

Sorry for your problems, but I think your issue is more junk plastic than the city. I very much dislike plastic in places where failure can cause damage, but that is the direction plumbing is headed. I'm going to check all my toilet connections after I post this.

Yep.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

I was a big proponent of shutting water off when leaving; did that in a house which was vacant for a month or so. Turned the water back on, then all sorts of things started leaking!
You just can't win. Good luck with this nightmare.

 

[Zeldman]

I just turn off the circuit breaker to turn off the water.

I just changed the washing machine hoses, along with the dishwasher hose, and the swamp cooler hose and the refrigerator water supply hose. I'll check and probably change the commode hoses and check the water heater as well.

 

[azblackbird]

Just an FYI to those here that may have not have done so already. Go through each room in your home and video all the contents. If you have the manuals/receipts to all appliances in the home, even the better. This makes a good record for insurance purposes. Reading @Rushie dilemma just solidified the importance of doing so just in case an unfortunate event such as his would occur. As an added pre-caution, replace all appliance/toilet water hoses (anything under pressure) with the stainless braided variety. They can still leak, but I've yet to see any burst.

 

[Hank S]

Braided stainless water supply lines for washer and all toilets. Inexpensive, easy and "lasts long time."

Sorry for your bad luck. At least your insurance is making you whole, and defraying your out-of-home expenses.

I had to replumb my entire house due to pin holes in the pipes, six months after I bought it. Insurance provided by the seller paid $1700, including the $300+ bill for repairing the first leak in the ceiling. Homeowners pays nothing for damage that occurs "over time." My first quote to convert to PEX was $8700, but I managed to get it for $6000 cash from a other plumber. Plus sheet rock repair . . .

 

[Rushie]

Sorry for your bad luck. At least your insurance is making you whole, and defraying your out-of-home expenses.

They said we have "loss of use" clause which means they will pay our apartment rent. The policy is indeed written to make us whole. I am really happy we have good homeowner's insurance. Been with that company for 40 years and never made a claim on homeowners, just a couple minor on the auto. They were one of the two best recommended by Clark Howard. Now I will see if they are still as good as their reputation.

 

[denverpilot]

Rushie, just saw this and what a pain. Glad nobody hurt. Stuff can be fixed and replaced for the most part, hopefully no damaged heirlooms.

For those who turn stuff off when gone at a whole house cut-off, keep in mind evaporation in hot water tanks if you have those. Back them off temperature-wise and if it's a REALLY long time away from the house, drain them and shut them down. With no way to refill themselves, that can get a bit ugly.

And as someone else has mentioned, sometimes the leaks start when you turn it all back on. BTDT...

One of the plusses of our house being on a well that doesn't require a meter, but has one INSIDE the house, is that I can easily tell if there's a leak anywhere just by watching the meter when everything is supposed to be shut off.

Also for those who have home security systems, most can have a zone or two retrofitted CHEAP with a water leak sensor and treated like an always on / always activated alarm zone, like say, a smoke alarm is. Add them. Well worth the warning.

 

[catmandu]

Just an FYI to those here that may have not have done so already. Go through each room in your home and video all the contents. If you have the manuals/receipts to all appliances in the home, even the better. This makes a good record for insurance purposes. Reading @Rushie dilemma just solidified the importance of doing so just in case an unfortunate event such as his would occur. As an added pre-caution, replace all appliance/toilet water hoses (anything under pressure) with the stainless braided variety. They can still leak, but I've yet to see any burst.

This. Had a @Rushie experience to a smaller degree with a toilet. Four months later, same thing on a second toilet. The insurance adjuster did not bat an eye, but I updated the remaining two toilets and washing machine hoses. I had had enough 'fun' for the year, and you can only change your mind about wood floor finish so many times.

 

[Rushie]

My husband explained to me that the pressure regulator they're putting in is adjustable. That means if at 50 I think the water is too slow we can adjust it up a bit. I'll have to look into the one they put on my mom's because her water is really wimpy.

I guess what's really bothering me is most of the googling I'm coming across about reducing pressure talks about CONSERVATION. With lower pressure you get fewer gallons per unit of time. I have NO interest in that. I want the most gallons the fastest when I'm trying to fill a bucket.

I am interested only in reducing pressure if it's the pressure that caused the break. I am having trouble teasing out whether all the current recommendations for 50 psi is because of leaks, or if it's because of some current day conservation paradigm?

Hence, do I really need to spend $300 for him to put in that regulator? If 75-80 is really okay and it was just a bad piece of plastic that caused the break, do I really need to suffer lower gpm flow?

 

[wrbix]

Only reason to go to the City is to petition to get that water bill adjusted - they'll sometimes do that for leaks, etc.

Sorry for your problems - faced similar with a frozen pipe a few years back.

 

[Matthew]

My husband explained to me that the pressure regulator they're putting in is adjustable. That means if at 50 I think the water is too slow we can adjust it up a bit. I'll have to look into the one they put on my mom's because her water is really wimpy.

I guess what's really bothering me is most of the googling I'm coming across about reducing pressure talks about CONSERVATION. With lower pressure you get fewer gallons per unit of time. I have NO interest in that. I want the most gallons the fastest when I'm trying to fill a bucket.

I am interested only in reducing pressure if it's the pressure that caused the break. I am having trouble teasing out whether all the current recommendations for 50 psi is because of leaks, or if it's because of some current day conservation paradigm?

Hence, do I really need to spend $300 for him to put in that regulator? If 75-80 is really okay and it was just a bad piece of plastic that caused the break, do I really need to suffer lower gpm flow?

From my limited knowledge: 80 PSI is considered the max you want inside your house. 50-70 seems optimal - at that pressure you'll get good flow at all your faucets and appliances. Higher pressures put more strain on valves (think about the valves you don't see - ice maker, washing machine, dishwasher, toilets), and all the fittings. Too low, and you'll wait a long time for the washing machine or bathtub to fill.

I can't think of a conservation purpose - your shower head has a restrictor in it already. The toilet doesn't use any more or less water, it just takes a different amount of time to fill the tank.

 

[Anthony]

Rushie, so sorry to hear! Hope it all works out, and you get the flow you want, and the damage repaired quickly. I have to flush my toilets at least twice now due to the low flow requirements. Makes sense, huh?

 

[PaulS]

Rushie, so sorry to hear! Hope it all works out, and you get the flow you want, and the damage repaired quickly. I have to flush my toilets at least twice now due to the low flow requirements. Makes sense, huh?

I used to think the same thing, but the old toilets were like 7.5 gallons per flush, and the new ones are like 1.5 gallons per flush, so at 2 or 3 flushes you are still saving a lot of water.

 

[Sac Arrow]

My husband explained to me that the pressure regulator they're putting in is adjustable. That means if at 50 I think the water is too slow we can adjust it up a bit. I'll have to look into the one they put on my mom's because her water is really wimpy.

I guess what's really bothering me is most of the googling I'm coming across about reducing pressure talks about CONSERVATION. With lower pressure you get fewer gallons per unit of time. I have NO interest in that. I want the most gallons the fastest when I'm trying to fill a bucket.

I am interested only in reducing pressure if it's the pressure that caused the break. I am having trouble teasing out whether all the current recommendations for 50 psi is because of leaks, or if it's because of some current day conservation paradigm?

Hence, do I really need to spend $300 for him to put in that regulator? If 75-80 is really okay and it was just a bad piece of plastic that caused the break, do I really need to suffer lower gpm flow?

It it broke it 80, it probably would have broke at 50. There is no hard and fast regulatory upper limit for pressure, 80 is generally considered the maximum advisable. On the low end, 40 is considered minimum for "maximum day demand" conditions on the water system, and 20 is an absolute minimum requirement during a fireflow. Water mains get disinfected and flushed when the pressure drops below 30.

 

[Norman]

From my limited knowledge: 80 PSI is considered the max you want inside your house. 50-70 seems optimal - at that pressure you'll get good flow at all your faucets and appliances. Higher pressures put more strain on valves (think about the valves you don't see - ice maker, washing machine, dishwasher, toilets), and all the fittings. Too low, and you'll wait a long time for the washing machine or bathtub to fill.

I can't think of a conservation purpose - your shower head has a restrictor in it already. The toilet doesn't use any more or less water, it just takes a different amount of time to fill the tank.

Matthew,

I'm no expert on plumbing. That right was claimed by my late FIL who was. He told me that all washered valves should open against pressure/flow. IOW, pressure helped keep them closed and produced less strain on the sealing washers. It made sense to me.

 

[bobmrg]

Sorry to hear of your issue. This is why I shut toilets off at the valve when we go away for more than a day or two.

Me too...kill hot water heater breaker, turn off stops for washer, sinks, toilets....limit the opportunity for unpleasant surprises. Murphey's Law.

Bob

 

[Timbeck2]

I had the same thing happen about 15 years ago to me only it was the water heater. It sucks but my insurance company was Johnny on the spot and took care of us. It was a good way to "clean house" and get rid of a bunch of stuff that was on the floor. Some of it was replaced, most of it wasn't.

 

[ircphoenix]

I had the same thing happen about 15 years ago to me only it was the water heater. It sucks but my insurance company was Johnny on the spot and took care of us. It was a good way to "clean house" and get rid of a bunch of stuff that was on the floor. Some of it was replaced, most of it wasn't.

Hmmm... maybe I can get a water leak into the garage to convince the GF to get rid of stuff....

 

[Matthew]

Matthew,

I'm no expert on plumbing. That right was claimed by my late FIL who was. He told me that all washered valves should open against pressure/flow. IOW, pressure helped keep them closed and produced less strain on the sealing washers. It made sense to me.

Makes sense to me, too. Even ball valves "slide" open. But the action of those valves causes stress and the components associate with them, like the connectors. And since they are generally hidden from sight, you might not be aware of early signs of a leak. I think our washing machine valves open and close fairly quickly and I can see/feel the hoses jump as pressure inside changes when the valves change state. Not exactly a water hammer issue, but similar.

All my shutoffs are now the 90-deg ball-valve type. I used to have the washer-style but after many years, the time I really needed to use them the washers were disintegrating. They couldn't seal anymore and the crumbs ended up flowing into the faucets above and clogging them up.

 

[Highlander46]

Sorry for your loss, no one needs to experience that! Matthew has it right: 90 degree ball valves on all shut-offs. Something I haven't seen a comment on is the fact that the meter was replaced. Most new meter installations in the US now are required to have a back-flow check valve in the meter in order to prevent water from your plumbing back- flowing into the mains. NSF or some such agency. When no water is being used and the temp drops at night, the water heater comes on and heats and expands the water. With the new back-flow valve, the water has no where to go and the pressure rises. Most cities require that an accumulator type expansion tank be installed on the cold water inlet line of the heater to prevent the pressure from rising to a damaging level. Some new toilet valves have a relief valve built in which will vent the extra pressure into the toilet tank. Installation of a pressure regulator at the inlet to the house is a good investment also, as most appliance solenoid valves live a lot longer at or below 65 psi. Just be sure to have your plumber put the pressure regulator after the connection to the outside faucets...watering the lawn is a lot more fun with 125 psi than 65!

 

[Rushie]

Sorry for your loss, no one needs to experience that! Matthew has it right: 90 degree ball valves on all shut-offs. Something I haven't seen a comment on is the fact that the meter was replaced. Most new meter installations in the US now are required to have a back-flow check valve in the meter in order to prevent water from your plumbing back- flowing into the mains. NSF or some such agency. When no water is being used and the temp drops at night, the water heater comes on and heats and expands the water. With the new back-flow valve, the water has no where to go and the pressure rises. Most cities require that an accumulator type expansion tank be installed on the cold water inlet line of the heater to prevent the pressure from rising to a damaging level. Some new toilet valves have a relief valve built in which will vent the extra pressure into the toilet tank. Installation of a pressure regulator at the inlet to the house is a good investment also, as most appliance solenoid valves live a lot longer at or below 65 psi. Just be sure to have your plumber put the pressure regulator after the connection to the outside faucets...watering the lawn is a lot more fun with 125 psi than 65!

So THAT is what the plumber was talking about, that the new meter raised the pressure. Now I see how, and he also talked about adding an expansion tank to the water heaters. Now it all makes sense. As for watering the lawn, we have a well completely separate from the potable city water, and the well water goes to the lawn sprinkling system. But that makes me wonder, I'm not real sure which water the outside faucets use. I'll check that, thanks.

 

[Rushie]

Rushie, so sorry to hear! Hope it all works out, and you get the flow you want, and the damage repaired quickly. I have to flush my toilets at least twice now due to the low flow requirements. Makes sense, huh?

Oh I absolutely hate it. I actually wrote Donald Trump a letter in response to his "Contract with the American Voter" and told him that now he is elected I will hold him to his promises in the contract, one being to repeal two regulations for every one new one, and that I wanted one of the repealed regulations to be LOW FLOW TOILETS.

 

[Rushie]

I had the same thing happen about 15 years ago to me only it was the water heater. It sucks but my insurance company was Johnny on the spot and took care of us. It was a good way to "clean house" and get rid of a bunch of stuff that was on the floor. Some of it was replaced, most of it wasn't.

Our insurance company has been amazing. We just met with the adjuster and the insurance company's suggested contractor for the restoration, which is the same one they used for the mitigation/demolition, and we are very impressed. Things are happening very fast and they have it all coordinated very well. We should be getting a huge check early next week and can start the restoration process. They are hooking me up with an electronics specialist for my computer, and a furniture restoration specialist is due to come look at our furniture, lamps, and other large items. They have it down to an efficient science.

 

[PaulS]

Low flow kitchen spigots **** me off more than the toilets. How much time is lost filling up stuff at 1.25 gallons per minute. Dumbasses.

 

[Rushie]

Low flow kitchen spigots **** me off more than the toilets. How much time is lost filling up stuff at 1.25 gallons per minute. Dumbasses.

Oh yes! I can rant about that too. But it's the spigot though causing that problem, not the fact that the pressure is 50 psi instead of 80?

 

[PaulS]

Oh yes! I can rant about that too. But it's the spigot though causing that problem, not the fact that the pressure is 50 psi instead of 80?

It's the spigot, they are designed to restrict the flow to waste our time.

 

[Rushie]

It's the spigot, they are designed to restrict the flow to waste our time.

If it's because of water conservation I never understood that. I am going to use x amount of water to boil my pasta or wash my dishes. Flow restriction does absolutely nothing to reduce the amount of water I use. Even when it is flowing constantly to rinse, it takes a certain amount of water to rinse off a certain amount of detergent. Showers are the same way. All low flow showers accomplish is making me stand there longer while the water does its job.

 

[Matthew]

Showers are different. People take 10 minutes average (I think), regardless of pressure. Filling a sink or kettle or pot takes a fixed volume. Unless a low flow kitchen faucet is supposed to save rinse water, all it does is waste time.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

We should be getting a huge check

Is this a concern?
Depending on the wording of your policy, isn't it best to have the insurance co pay the contractors? Otherwise you must sign that you've been made whole, without seeing the results of the repairs. And you are left to deal with the contractors, and responsible for any overages or surprises. Unless the policy is being maxed out.

 

[Rushie]

Showers are different. People take 10 minutes average (I think), regardless of pressure. Filling a sink or kettle or pot takes a fixed volume. Unless a low flow kitchen faucet is supposed to save rinse water, all it does is waste time.

That may be true for "people", not me. I take showers as long as needed to rinse all the shampoo out of my hair and the soap off my skin. If it's low flow, I'm in there longer.