Hello! Student Pilot...and a question that has probably been asked before...

D

Damon

Filing Flight Plan
Joined
Feb 20, 2017
Messages
7
Display Name
Display name:
Havensdad
Hi everyone. I am working towards my Private pilots license in the Houston area. I have complete my ground school, I have passed the knowledge test, and I have about 30 flight hours logged. I also completed my first solo about a month ago..(my lessons have been spaced out a bit).

Here is my question: can you do one cross country flight at night to satisfy both your (dual) night flying requirements and your (dual) cross country requirements? Can the time be applied to both requirements? There seems to be some disagreement and confusion about this, and I cannot find a definitive answer. Would really appreciate a straight answer, with some sort of citation....
 
Have you asked your CFI?

Are you signed off for solo night?
 
I think the total time has to be met in both categories but if your instructor will approve it you might be able to do them both at night. Someone with more knowledge than I will tell us for sure

Welcome to the sky's of a Houston. Let me know if you go down to LBX and I will buy lunch if I'm available. I try to go to the airport most Saturdays. This week I'm doing an Angle Flight Saturday but would be happy to meet up another time

Gary
 
You could, but I feel you'd be wasting time that could be better spent learning pilotage and dead reckoning in the day time, not that you couldn't do so at night also. Now once you had a coupe dual XCs, I might do a dual night XC with a student, which would count for night time of course. Solo XC at night, I dunno about that. I just feel there's a lot crammed in XCs and would be more beneficial for the student during the day.
 
murphey said:
Have you asked your CFI?

Are you signed off for solo night?
Click to expand...

I did ask him the other day, but the answer was a bit vague, and we got interrupted. I have to drive about 2 hours for lessons, and I just have not gotten the chance to broach the topic again.
 
GaryV said:
I think the total time has to be met in both categories but if your instructor will approve it you might be able to do them both at night. Someone with more knowledge than I will tell us for sure

Welcome to the sky's of a Houston. Let me know if you go down to LBX and I will buy lunch if I'm available. I try to go to the airport most Saturdays. This week I'm doing an Angle Flight Saturday but would be happy to meet up another time

Gary
Click to expand...
Careful, I might take you up on that!
 
I guess what I am really asking is, do all the requirements have to be met separately?

Example: I do two hours, cross country dual with my CFI, which round trip is 4 hours. But we do it at night, and we take an extra hour to take care of the 10 T/O and landing requirements. Total, it comes to 5 hours.

The question is, Has that satisfied both the dual cross country requirements, AND the night flying requirements, or can that time only apply to one or the other?
 
Damon said:
Hi everyone. I am working towards my Private pilots license in the Houston area. I have complete my ground school, I have passed the knowledge test, and I have about 30 flight hours logged. I also completed my first solo about a month ago..(my lessons have been spaced out a bit).

Here is my question: can you do one cross country flight at night to satisfy both your (dual) night flying requirements and your (dual) cross country requirements? Can the time be applied to both requirements? There seems to be some disagreement and confusion about this, and I cannot find a definitive answer. Would really appreciate a straight answer, with some sort of citation....
Click to expand...
OP didn't say anything about solo XCs. So you can definitely use a night XC to satisfy your night hours and your Dual XC hours. HOWEVER...You're missing out royally by not flying a local night ops flight. You're also missing out on daytime pilotage skill-building. I typically do one day XC and one night XC before I cut my guys loose on their solo XC requirements.
 
It may be just me, but I have a beef about just meeting FAA requirements and calling it a day. My CFI other day told me that I already have 2 hrs instrument and I need one more hr to meet minimums. Told him I will do more in actual IMC, just meeting minimums are that according to me, minimums. But again, I am not bulletproof anymore, and by design over cautious.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
 
Damon said:
I guess what I am really asking is, do all the requirements have to be met separately?

Example: I do two hours, cross country dual with my CFI, which round trip is 4 hours. But we do it at night, and we take an extra hour to take care of the 10 T/O and landing requirements. Total, it comes to 5 hours.

The question is, Has that satisfied both the dual cross country requirements, AND the night flying requirements, or can that time only apply to one or the other?
Click to expand...
If we didn't combine requirements, nobody would ever make it to check ride in the commercial and instrument requirements.
 
WannFly said:
It may be just me, but I have a beef about just meeting FAA requirements and calling it a day. My CFI other day told me that I already have 2 hrs instrument and I need one more hr to meet minimums. Told him I will do more in actual IMC, just meeting minimums are that according to me, minimums. But again, I am not bulletproof anymore, and by design over cautious.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
I can understand that. But I would rather meet the minimums, and then let my CFI determine what I need extra work on, instead of burning up my time and money getting extra training on the stuff that I have managed to master in the minimum time. I am already going to have way more total hours on average, just because of my training schedule and distance from airport...
 
My CFI did it the way you want to and my DPE had no issue with it. Qualifier - this was in 2011, I'm not sure if that matters. It was a great way to learn fast and you do still learn ded reckoning and the rest of your cockpit duties at night so make sure you're well rested.

Hope you enjoy it as much as I did.
 
The regulations require 3 hours of cross-country training, and 3 hours of night training, and a night cross-country. They do not require a daytime cross-country.

However, I doubt any instructor would sign off a student for solo cross-country after having done one cross-country only at night. The idea of it seems absurd. It's like asking if you can skip doing slow-flight because you've already done stalls. Different skills are involved.
 
Damon said:
I can understand that. But I would rather meet the minimums, and then let my CFI determine what I need extra work on, instead of burning up my time and money getting extra training on the stuff that I have managed to master in the minimum time. I am already going to have way more total hours on average, just because of my training schedule and distance from airport...
Click to expand...
It's all about getting comfortable, if u feel u are comfortable with whatever minimums, that's good enough. I personally don't think I can get out of real soup with 3 hrs of hood time. Same with night xc, where trusting ur instruments is the key, especially where I am and there is nothing between 2 towns other than unlit corn fields

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
 
FWIW - I did a 2.0hr XC dual, 1.7 night dual, 2.8 XC night dual

Total 4.8 XC (more than enough) and 4.5 night training (more than enough)

You could likely trim that some, but as mentioned above, don't cheat yourself out of training time to get done faster.

Happy flying...
 
dmspilot said:
The regulations require 3 hours of cross-country training, and 3 hours of night training, and a night cross-country. They do not require a daytime cross-country.

However, I doubt any instructor would sign off a student for solo cross-country after having done one cross-country only at night. The idea of it seems absurd. It's like asking if you can skip doing slow-flight because you've already done stalls. Different skills are involved.
Click to expand...

Oh yes sir, I get that.
 
Don't skimp on training to save a few bucks. You're already wasting a load of moolah on flying, you won't even miss a couple hundred down the road. It's what, the cost of half a decent headset? An extra hour or two of "fun" flying while prepping for your practical?
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
Don't skimp on training to save a few bucks. You're already wasting a load of moolah on flying, you won't even miss a couple hundred down the road. It's what, the cost of half a decent headset? An extra hour or two of "fun" flying while prepping for your practical?
Click to expand...
Not so concerned with the money (although that is one consideration...I am having to work an extra job to pay for this). Its more about not being held up two months because of weather and scheduling over .2 hours in some category or other, even after my CFI says "You're ready." I have been working on my license for nearly a year, because 2/3 of my lessons have been cancelled for severe weather or emergencies. I live 2 hours from the flight school (four hour round trip drive). Its just nice knowing that the minimums are "stackable" if you will.
 
9
GaryV said:
I think the total time has to be met in both categories but if your instructor will approve it you might be able to do them both at night. Someone with more knowledge than I will tell us for sure

Welcome to the sky's of a Houston. Let me know if you go down to LBX and I will buy lunch if I'm available. I try to go to the airport most Saturdays. This week I'm doing an Angle Flight Saturday but would be happy to meet up another time

Gary
Click to expand...


Was that an acute or an obtuse angle flight?
 
Yes you can. You can also complete your ten night landings on that same flight.
 
Damon said:
I did ask him the other day, but the answer was a bit vague, and we got interrupted. I have to drive about 2 hours for lessons, and I just have not gotten the chance to broach the topic again.
Click to expand...
Driving two hours for lessons in Houston? Wow the airport must be about half a mile away! (insert some sort of I hate Houston traffic sometimes emoticon here)

If your instructor will sign it off then it's good. Certainly it's within the FARs. The practical side is that you end up cramming a lot of night landings into a very short time if you are trying to minimize training time like most of us do. I know this because one of my dual XCs was at night. It was a lot of fun and very good to have the ballast along. The CFI was a bit more than ballast on that flight and we didn't bend the airplane. I did have a bit of seat upholstery deformation on one landing...
 
Dual: 20 hours minimum of flight training with an instructor on the Private Pilot areas of operation including:
  1. 3 hours of cross country flight training in a single engine airplane;
  2. 3 hours of night flight training in a single engine airplane, that includes at least:
    a) 1 cross country flight of over 100 nm total distance; and
    b) 10 T/O’s and 10 landings to a full stop with each involving a flight in the traffic pattern at an airport.
  3. 3 hours of flight training by reference to instruments in a single engine airplane; and
  4. 3 hours of flight training in a single engine airplane within the 60 days prior to the practical test.
Solo: 10 hours minimum of solo flying in a single engine airplane on the Private Pilot areas of operation including:
  1. 5 hours of solo cross country flying;
  2. 1 solo cross country flight of at least 150nm total distance with full stop landings at 3 points and one segment of at least 50nm between T/O and landings; and
  3. 3 T/O’s and landings to a full stop at an airport with an operating control tower.
They are seperate items.
 
@ citizen, I respectfully disagree.

Are you saying indirectly that a night flight can not ALSO be a XC??.
I think the list are more "requirements" and not things..
The CFI can take his student on a dual nite XC that is over 100nm away.. do 10 TO/LAND in pattern.. and make it 3hrs of flying,

and then check off in the students logbook
1. nite flight XC dual (noted as 100nm dist or more)
2. nite 10 TO/LAND nite time
3. 3hrs or more XC dual (XC marked on the nite flight from item 1 above)


unless im seeing it wrong.
 
I am saying you can't count dual night cross country as part of or instead of your 3 hours of dual cross country training. They are distinct flights. The night cross country also requires 10 full stop landings and takeoffs in the pattern. In practice the time it takes just to get the night pattern 10 T/Os and landings done will be over an hour.

There is also another non-cross country chunk of 3 hours under hood and 3 hours of dual within 60 days of the checkride.

Ultimately it is the DPE that will be checking off these things from the log book. It may be prudent to ask one just to make sure.
 
Yes you can can do that. Probably won't be too useful though because you'll want to do some dead reckoning and it's pretty tough to do at night.
 
Add up the columns in your logbook top-to-bottom... if they each add up to the individual requirements, you're probably good...
 
citizen5000 said:
I am saying you can't count dual night cross country as part of or instead of your 3 hours of dual cross country training. They are distinct flights. The night cross country also requires 10 full stop landings and takeoffs in the pattern. In practice the time it takes just to get the night pattern 10 T/Os and landings done will be over an hour.

There is also another non-cross country chunk of 3 hours under hood and 3 hours of dual within 60 days of the checkride.
Click to expand...

This is wholly untrue.

Dual Instruction is Dual Instruction. If an applicant needs only the XC flight instruction that he or she receives on the Night XC flight, and that flight is at least 3 hours, and the applicant makes 10 takeoffs and landings to a full stop at night, then the applicant has met the requirements of 61.109(a)(1), and 61.109(a)(2). If the student wore a view limiting device for 3 hours on that night XC flight and did the tasks listed in 61.109(a)(3), then he or she would have met the requirements of that section as well; all simultaneously.

There is nothing prohibiting this, other than common sense. Doing things this way isn't right for all students. A flight instructor needs to weigh the benefits of combining tasks like this- most of the time, the students needs more time anyway, so there's not a whole lot of benefit in trying to cram several tasks into one flight. That's where you start crossing the border into "Checking Boxes" territory.
 
citizen5000 said:
I am saying you can't count dual night cross country as part of or instead of your 3 hours of dual cross country training. They are distinct flights. The night cross country also requires 10 full stop landings and takeoffs in the pattern. In practice the time it takes just to get the night pattern 10 T/Os and landings done will be over an hour.

There is also another non-cross country chunk of 3 hours under hood and 3 hours of dual within 60 days of the checkride.

Ultimately it is the DPE that will be checking off these things from the log book. It may be prudent to ask one just to make sure.
Click to expand...
Wrong. Read the regulations again.
 
citizen5000 said:
I am saying you can't count dual night cross country as part of or instead of your 3 hours of dual cross country training. They are distinct flights. The night cross country also requires 10 full stop landings and takeoffs in the pattern. In practice the time it takes just to get the night pattern 10 T/Os and landings done will be over an hour.

There is also another non-cross country chunk of 3 hours under hood and 3 hours of dual within 60 days of the checkride.

Ultimately it is the DPE that will be checking off these things from the log book. It may be prudent to ask one just to make sure.
Click to expand...

How is a cross-country at night not cross-country training?

Cite a source to backup your claim.

I did similar to Matt C when I was a student. A 2-hour day dual XC and a 2-hour night dual XC covered the night XC requirement as well as the 3-hour XC training requirement.

citizen5000 said:
The night cross country also requires 10 full stop landings and takeoffs
Click to expand...

Now I hope that's a typo otherwise you're just making stuff up, because there is no requirement to do the 10 takeoffs and landings simultaneously with the cross-country, though you certainly could if you wanted.
 
citizen5000 said:
I am saying you can't count dual night cross country as part of or instead of your 3 hours of dual cross country training. They are distinct flights. The night cross country also requires 10 full stop landings and takeoffs in the pattern. In practice the time it takes just to get the night pattern 10 T/Os and landings done will be over an hour.

There is also another non-cross country chunk of 3 hours under hood and 3 hours of dual within 60 days of the checkride.

Ultimately it is the DPE that will be checking off these things from the log book. It may be prudent to ask one just to make sure.
Click to expand...
This is bad gouge. I think every sentence before the last two is false.

Just to carry it into absurdity, you can do all 40 of your hours at night and have zero daytime flight hours. You're still 100% in compliance with Part 61.
 
Last edited:
A 100 mile night XC is not going to be anywhere near the 3 hours of dual XC required. There is nothing wrong with doing 9 landings at the remote airport.

It's useful to do both a day and a night cross country. Pilotage is quite different day and night, and it is VERY useful to do both.

Something I haven't seen done, but which might be useful (if the day isn't too long) is to fly 100 miles outbound in late afternoon, stop for dinner, and fly back at night on the same route.
 
@ citizen

your making no sense.


Also, as other posters have said, obviously doing pilotage/dead reckoning in the day is better than at night. But back to the OP question, yes you can do both and it would count. BUT, I still recommend doing the day dual XC, remember that your still going to do your solo long XC also.. the more training with a GOOD CFI the better. And I doubt a CFI is going to send for your long XC/checkride without it anyway.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top