Helicopters in Ukraine

Pi1otguy said:
Honestly I'm surprised helos are viable.
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My thought exactly. It will be interesting to see how or if the Ukranians backfill their aircraft. And if they do, with what? Regardless, hat's off to them for some bold flying.
 
SkyChaser said:
Maybe they bought them off the used market in Afghanistan?

:cool: :p :D
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That's an idea: wonder if the Saudis or somebody could talk all the semi-retired mujahadin to get back into war with Russia.
 
Piperonca said:
My thought exactly. It will be interesting to see how or if the Ukranians backfill their aircraft. And if they do, with what? Regardless, hat's off to them for some bold flying.
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We’re back filling their MI-8 losses with MI-17s that were initially tapped for Afghanistan. They’ve also been getting MI-8s / MI-24s from Czech Republic.
 
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Smart money may be putting bets down.
 
Half Fast said:
A few Apaches armed with JAGMs and flying at night would do some serious good.
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I could think of no better or more justified deployment of such a magnificent weapon system. The Ukranians want desperately to be our allies, and have been invaded by pure evil. I would ask what are we waiting for, but that would be a rhetorical question.
 
Although I think it was largely a puff piece (to be fair, the reporters are highly limited in what they can see/hear/report which makes most articles puff pieces), it was very cool to see the human interest side, and that they are still flying.

Tim
 
The pictures and the video told the story for me. Not much need for words.
 
I didn't know they had attack helicopter pilots. If there is a fire and forget hellfire version, that would seem pretty useful. What would the lift be for them to transition to cobras or hueys? Seems like they already have the "crazy enough to fly helicopters" part down already.
 
Albany Tom said:
If there is a fire and forget hellfire version...
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That would be JAGM in a radar-only mode. I led the development of the seeker hardware. It’s a dual-mode seeker, MMW Radar + SAL, with a HELLFIRE back end. It completed LRIP and was approved for full-rate production last year.
 
Those unguided rockets aren't much of a weapon, but you must admire their valor.
 
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3393RP said:
Those unguided rockets aren't much of a weapon, but you must admire their valor.
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Depends on the target, and the goal. Unguided can still be effective. Is it as effective as "smart munitions". Not even close, but it can still get the job done.

Tim
 
Proficient Cobra drivers could bury those 2.75” rockets in a 6’ cave opening back in the day.

They could really use combined arms, with Fires, Aviation (Green and Blue), and throw in some Marines for affect.

The dirty little secret is the US, by way of War Fighting Exercises (WFX), has been fighting this Ukraine scenario for some time. In a heavy-metal near-peer fight, the good guys usually came ahead. With how Charlie has been for the past year, we would have mopped the floor with them in the real world.
 
Old munitions certainly can be effective. The 2.75 even back in the day had an impressive variety of warheads, including flechettes. Incredible anti-personnel weapon.
 
Modern Hydra 70, 2.75 rockets from a fused pod on an AH-64 are really a very effective weapon and come close to a point vs area weapon…unlike the dumb free fire Mark 40, 17 and 10 pound rockets. That being said if you fire 4 pairs and use Kentucky windage old school rockets come real close to fused and laser range modern stuff. I fired lots of both.
Fleshettes, Willi-Pete and Illumination being the most interesting to deliver of old school stuff. 17 pounders only came in HE, and were prey and sprey, unless it was diving fire…these guys are using the tactics we use in the 80’s in Cold War Germany…we were never given a life expectancy of more than a day…god bless them for their courage…Quad All on rockets can make for an interesting down range effect.
 

Long discussion of Helicopter effectiveness in Ukraine... since people seem to like long discussions with powerpoint slides here...
 
kep5niner said:
The dirty little secret is the US, by way of War Fighting Exercises (WFX), has been fighting this Ukraine scenario for some time.
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And the "older" weapons initially sent were probably designed with some of those OpFor vehicles in mind.
 
UngaWunga said:

Long discussion of Helicopter effectiveness in Ukraine... since people seem to like long discussions with powerpoint slides here...
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Well he’s kinda wishy washy in his assessment. Really his slide that showed American helicopter losses (5,500) in Vietnam says it all. Russian losses over the past year would be a bad month for us in Vietnam. Helicopter operations in war are flat out dangerous and no change in tactics will affect that. Tactics will mitigate but not completely eliminate losses in a high threat theater. Accept that and move on because troop movement by air will always trump ground.

But, just like the tank obsolete assessments recently, the majority of losses could be prevented with better tactics. Iraq suffered heavy tank losses in Desert Storm just as Russia has in this war. Part of it is inferior equipment, part is due to poor tactics. So far I’ve seen heavy use of helicopters in this war during daylight. That’s mistake number one. In Iraq and Afghanistan every air assault my unit did was at night. Far better chance of mission success at night vs day. What kind of ISR, arty and CAS are supporting these daytime troop movements? Seems like they’re going it alone. We never did that. What type of IRCM are they using against the MANPAD threat? Not all systems are created equal. Just flares and chaff alone there dozens of different types and some are more effective than others. What routes are they flying? Seen a lot of footage well above NOE altitudes and over open fields. Sitting ducks with that flight profile.

So, good vid but ultimately this war is far from proving the obsolescence of the helicopter or tilt rotor for that matter. Past wars have already demonstrated how vulnerable helicopters are but what they are able to do is indispensable.
 
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Piperonca said:
….I would ask what are we waiting for, but that would be a rhetorical question.
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Perhaps because we are broke as it is and asking why are we borrowing money from future generations to fuel a war a few thousand miles away is a valid question.
 
Warmi said:
Perhaps because we are broke as it is and asking why are we borrowing money from future generations to fuel a war a few thousand miles away is a valid question.
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Because the alternative is abandoning a free people to conquest when we easily have the means to help.

1.5% of our defense budget to kneecap one of our two main geopolitical rivals is a bargain.
 
Ed Haywood said:
Because the alternative is abandoning a free people to conquest when we easily have the means to help.

1.5% of our defense budget to kneecap one of our two main geopolitical rivals is a bargain.
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Yes, and the other main geopolitical rival is watching very closely. The course of future global conflict is already hinged on Ukraine. History has some interesting lessons in this regard.
 
Ed Haywood said:
Because the alternative is abandoning a free people to conquest when we easily have the means to help.

1.5% of our defense budget to kneecap one of our two main geopolitical rivals is a bargain.
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What geopolitical rival ? We are outspending Russia 12 to 1 in terms of military spending and their only claim to parity is their nukes which, thankfully, are not a factor here.
This is not a “rival” in any reasonable meaning of that word except as an excuse for spending billions which , I can’t stress that enough, we don’t really have to begin with …


BTW. Last time I checked we are out of 80 billion which is more like 10% of our military budget and more than Russias total annual military expenditures.
 
Warmi said:
BTW. Last time I checked we are out of 80 billion which is more like 10% of our military budget and more than Russias total annual military expenditures.
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If the US and/or NATO we're to fight Russia directly for a year, would it not go into the trillions? Also, this war sets the expectations for invasions for the next decade or two.
 
Warmi said:
What geopolitical rival ? We are outspending Russia 12 to 1 in terms of military spending and their only claim to parity is their nukes which, thankfully, are not a factor here.
This is not a “rival” in any reasonable meaning of that word except as an excuse for spending billions which , I can’t stress that enough, we don’t really have to begin with …


BTW. Last time I checked we are out of 80 billion which is more like 10% of our military budget and more than Russias total annual military expenditures.
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I don't understand the argument. Are you saying that we're so militarily superior to Russia that we should demonstrate it by letting them run through Eastern Europe?
 
Pi1otguy said:
If the US and/or NATO we're to fight Russia directly for a year, would it not go into the trillions? Also, this war sets the expectations for invasions for the next decade or two.
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Why are you so eager to fight Russia in the first place ? They are not invading Poland or Germany but rather trying to recover ( rightfully or not , I don’t really give a crap ) a remote piece of land that has no meaning to anyone except locals and has been part of various squabbles for centuries ( a historic , centuries long battleground between Russia , Poland and the late Ottoman Empire )
 
Warmi said:
Why are you so eager to fight Russia in the first place ?
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No one wants to. But it's bigger than Ukraine. The outcome of this sets the price tag and expected outcome for countries who invade their neighbors. Discouraging conquests of other countries that provide key resources and specialized goods to the region and world.
 
Warmi said:
Why are you so eager to fight Russia in the first place ? They are not invading Poland or Germany but rather trying to recover ( rightfully or not , I don’t really give a crap ) a remote piece of land that has no meaning to anyone except locals and has been part of various squabbles for centuries ( a historic , centuries long battleground between Russia , Poland and the late Ottoman Empire )
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How horrible, fantastic, incredible it is that we should be digging trenches and trying on gas masks here because of a quarrel in a far-away country between people of whom we know nothing.

Neville Chamberlain
British Prime Minister
September 27, 1938.

Spoken on the BBC in London regarding Hitler's annexation of the Sudetenland. The start of World War II was 339 days away. Those trenches in Hyde Park were put in use soon enough.
 
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Warmi said:
Why are you so eager to fight Russia in the first place ? They are not invading Poland or Germany but rather trying to recover ( rightfully or not , I don’t really give a crap ) a remote piece of land that has no meaning to anyone except locals and has been part of various squabbles for centuries ( a historic , centuries long battleground between Russia , Poland and the late Ottoman Empire )
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A lot of Americans felt the same in 1914 and again in 1936. Learn from history or repeat it.
 
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