Heading or Radial after VOR?

Pi1otguy

Pi1otguy

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Approach ask you to fly direct to a VOR. Then to fly 270 after the VOR.

Do you fly 270 radial or just 270 heading and let the winds do what they will?

For context, I was doing practice approaches under VFR and he was setting me up. I don't recall hearing the words "Heading 270" or "270 radial".
 
Pi1otguy said:
Approach ask you to fly direct to a VOR. Then to fly 270 after the VOR.

Do you fly 270 radial or just 270 heading and let the winds do what they will?

For context, I was doing practice approaches under VFR and he was setting me up. I don't recall hearing the words "Heading 270" or "270 radial".
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What they^^^ said. But the being VFR doing Practice Approaches has got me wanting to guess what may have been on the Controllers mind . What Airport and Approach was this. Did you end up getting vectors to final?
 
Pi1otguy said:
Approach ask you to fly direct to a VOR. Then to fly 270 after the VOR.

Do you fly 270 radial or just 270 heading and let the winds do what they will?

For context, I was doing practice approaches under VFR and he was setting me up. I don't recall hearing the words "Heading 270" or "270 radial".
Click to expand...

I am curious what did you end up doing?

If you were being vectored, it is unlikely they told you to fly the 270 radial. But never accept an ATC instruction if you didn't understand it.
 
We should have a special thread to collect partial instructions. Posting should include the name of the ATC facility and the time so it can be listened to on LiveATC to find out if it was partially given or partially heard. Then we can do stats. Might even do a poll before listening to the answer.
 
Pi1otguy said:
Approach ask you to fly direct to a VOR. Then to fly 270 after the VOR.

Do you fly 270 radial or just 270 heading and let the winds do what they will?

For context, I was doing practice approaches under VFR and he was setting me up. I don't recall hearing the words "Heading 270" or "270 radial".
Click to expand...
What did you read back? "After the VOR, fly the 270 degree radial outbound" (the flip side of what such an instruction would sound like) or "after the VOR, fly heading 270"? Clarification is that simple.
 
midlifeflyer said:
What did you read back? "After the VOR, fly the 270 degree radial outbound" (the flip side of what such an instruction would sound like) or "after the VOR, fly heading 270"? Clarification is that simple.
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"Direct Paradise VOR, 270 after the VOR. Bugsmasher 123"

Ok, I just figured out my issue.
If you turn to a heading from over a VOR then heading = radial = course (more or less). Not sure why, but in the moment that made so much sense that it seemed implied.
 
Pi1otguy said:
"Direct Paradise VOR, 270 after the VOR. Bugsmasher 123"

Ok, I just figured out my issue.
If you turn to a heading from over a VOR then heading = radial = course (more or less). Not sure why, but in the moment that made so much sense that it seemed implied.
Click to expand...
I don’t think that instruction was clear or proper. It could have easily meant either radial or heading. I also doubt it made a bit of difference which one you did. ;)
 
Pi1otguy said:
"Direct Paradise VOR, 270 after the VOR. Bugsmasher 123"
Click to expand...
In which case, the error may have been on both sides of the mic. ATC's error in not giving a complete instruction. Yours in accepting one you say you didn't understand.

"When a pilot is uncertain of an ATC clearance, that pilot shall immediately request clarification from ATC." 91.123(a). It's not only the rule but the only reasonable thing to do.

And yes...in reality, it may not have made any difference but with a crosswind, the radial (a track) and the heading may have led in different directions.
 
Generally I listen, then respond, then figure it out and act. If it doesn't make sense, go back for clarification. Don't ever be shy with atc, especially if the controller is busy or a dick.
 
midlifeflyer said:
We should have a special thread to collect partial instructions. Posting should include the name of the ATC facility and the time so it can be listened to on LiveATC to find out if it was partially given or partially heard. Then we can do stats. Might even do a poll before listening to the answer.
Click to expand...
. . . “partially given or partially heard.” Excellent distinction. I wonder how many ATC instructions are clearly but only partially heard.
 
Pi1otguy said:
"Direct Paradise VOR, 270 after the VOR. Bugsmasher 123"

Ok, I just figured out my issue.
If you turn to a heading from over a VOR then heading = radial = course (more or less). Not sure why, but in the moment that made so much sense that it seemed implied.
Click to expand...
Nope. If they want you fly a Heading they are supposed to say heading. If they want you to fly a Track they are supposed to say track. If join a Radial they are supposed to say radial. That was an incomplete instruction from the Controller, assuming that is exactly what he said. Now lets have some fun. Lead the turn and roll out on the Radial?? Wait for the TO/FROM to flip then get back to the Radial??
 
Lon33 said:
. . . “partially given or partially heard.” Excellent distinction. I wonder how many ATC instructions are clearly but only partially heard.
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If I liked to bet, I'd go with at least 80% of the time it's the pilot. And I think that's conservative.
 
OP here.

Found the recording. Seems my memory doesn't match reality. My read back was also incorrect. Between all the stuff involved with setting up approaches I seriously don't remember hearing the word "heading", but there it is. Sigh.

Apparently not flying IFR for 15 years made me a bit rusty. :( I suppose it'll take a few more flights to finish out the IPC.

SoCal said "... Proceed to paradise and then depart paradise heading 270."
Me: " ... Direct Paradise and then 150..."
(The track suggest I did fly 270)
 
Pi1otguy said:
OP here.

Found the recording. Seems my memory doesn't match reality. My read back was also incorrect. Between all the stuff involved with setting up approaches I seriously don't remember hearing the word "heading", but there it is. Sigh.

Apparently not flying IFR for 15 years made me a bit rusty. :( I suppose it'll take a few more flights to finish out the IPC.

SoCal said "... Proceed to paradise and then depart paradise heading 270."
Me: " ... Direct Paradise and then 150..."
(The track suggest I did fly 270)
Click to expand...
Thanks for getting back to us with that. FWIW, I returned to flying after taking over 20 years off. The IPC was far from a one flight affair. GPS was completely new to me.
 
Pi1otguy said:
OP here.
Found the recording. Seems my memory doesn't match reality. My read back was also incorrect. Between all the stuff involved with setting up approaches I seriously don't remember hearing the word "heading", but there it is. Sigh.
Click to expand...
Excellent. Almost all of us have done it at one time or another.

This is a little different than your situation but... Yesterday I did a short VFR cross country with a relatively new pilot as part of a transition checkout. He chose a Class C airport as our landing destination. In his case, it was due to lack of familiarity and nervousness but he misheard a few instructions and misunderstood a few others. As part of the debriefing, I told him to grab the audio from Live ATC. It's kind of the audio version of why some pilots like GoPros in the cockpit. Not to become executive producers on YouTube but to watch themselves and learn. I think he'll learn so much more from listening to himself communicate with ATC than I could ever cover in a debriefing.
 
looks clear to me. fly to the vor and AFTER the vor turn 270. I interpret that as a heading, not radial.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Not to become executive producers on YouTube but to watch themselves and learn. I think he'll learn so much more from listening to himself communicate with ATC than I could ever cover in a debriefing.
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I'd rather be the Hitchcock of YouTube. Feature airplane crashes. I'll start with the clown who bailed out of his perfectly good Taylorcraft. I'll call him Norman Bates, Jr.
 
Almost as annoying as being cleared to the airport name because the weather is VFR.
 
Just ask. If you aren’t sure about a clearance ask them.
 
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