Having trouble with the CFII written

Max Frankow

Max Frankow

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maxfrankow03191
I use ASA for a study curriculum and missed my written by three lousy questions. Now I am a terrible test taker(a skill I am trying to get better at) but I come from the type of students and instructors who say that memorization is the key. I never did agree with that, but I just took the written and it just seems wildly different from my study materials. Granted it has been about three and a half years since I took a written before this and I'm aware the methods and software has changed.

Essentially, I'm just asking for advice on how to handle it. Perhaps I'm falling back on the memorization method too much.
 
It's essentially the same as the instrument rating written with 10 fewer questions. Any particular topic you had trouble with? Was the study material for the instrument or specifically for the II?

With any standardized test, it is very important to read the question and each of the answer choices carefully. The FAA gives you plenty of time to take their tests, use it to review every question at the end. I've caught many mistakes that way. (But don't change a quasi-guess to a different guess.)

As an aside I don't think "failing by 3 questions" is a good way to look at it. You had to miss way more than 3 questions to fail.
 
dmspilot said:
It's essentially the same as the instrument rating written with 10 fewer questions. Any particular topic you had trouble with? Was the study material for the instrument or specifically for the II?

With any standardized test, it is very important to read the question and each of the answer choices carefully. The FAA gives you plenty of time to take their tests, use it to review every question at the end. I've caught many mistakes that way. (But don't change a quasi-guess to a different guess.)
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I think that's my issue, changing answers. Honestly, the instrument rating written was always tough for me(more of a visual learner) and this just seems like an amped up version of that. Granted, I feel my knowledge is there as I am currently going through the codes of what I got wrong and saw a few sections where on the practice tests I consistently get them right through both understanding and rote. However, the wording is extremely different and I think maybe I'm just rushing. Not good habits. Haha, I'm doing exactly what I tell my students not to do.

As for areas I'm having trouble with, probably the approaches. I haven't flown instruments since my training and in that time became a CFI. I held off getting the CFII as I was plenty busy with the students that I had.
 
Can't help how I learn. For example, when learning to do holds, actually doing them in a plane or simulator was what made it stick for me. Not so much just reading about it. Not trying to discount your view I just know what works best for me.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
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Of course, all of this assumes that memorizing random lists or taking classes in college constitutes learning, and that tests in college actually evaluate learning.

As to the OP’s statement, he may be a visual learner, but he’s trying to memorize instead of learn, per his instructors’ guidance. And if the visuals of the test don’t match the visuals that he’s memorized, how can he expect to succeed?
 
I am a other big fan of SheppardAir.

the CFII written is simple rote memory. And SA excels at making that happen (plus my memory aid trick for the holding pattern questions)
 
MauleSkinner said:
Of course, all of this assumes that memorizing random lists or taking classes in college constitutes learning, and that tests in college actually evaluate learning.

As to the OP’s statement, he may be a visual learner, but he’s trying to memorize instead of learn, per his instructors’ guidance. And if the visuals of the test don’t match the visuals that he’s memorized, how can he expect to succeed?
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Exactly. Learning involves mentally organizing different concepts. Recalling information is not learning.
 
I’m sorry, but I cannot understand how it’s possible to fail a written test. I mean, most of the questions and answers are actually posted for you to memorize (used to be exact duplicates).

If you put the time in, I find it troubling that anyone can fail.
Now, if you didn’t pick up the book to study….
 
You find one of the free online practice test web sites (mywrittenexam used to bet one of them) and you take the test over and over until you can score 95% or better at least three times in a row.
I always made my students do the same before I would sign them off for the written. No one ever failed.

And if you got far enough to take the CFII written you already know that rote learning doesn't mean you understand the material. If you're going to turn around and teach the next day then rote isn't good enough.
 
Kritchlow said:
I’m sorry, but I cannot understand how it’s possible to fail a written test. I mean, most of the questions and answers are actually posted for you to memorize (used to be exact duplicates).
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Some people just don’t memorize very readily.

This is one of the reasons I like Dauntless card decks. They have several modes to use the cards and at first you can just go through and review all the answers. Then use a mode that shows you the ones you are getting wrong over and over again. It is hard to not memorize the cards if you just drill and kill it. Then take the practice exam to get a score up in the 90s and make you feel confident taking the actual exam.
 
Kritchlow said:
’m sorry, but I cannot understand how it’s possible to fail a written test. I mean, most of the questions and answers are actually posted for you to memorize (used to be exact duplicates).
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For anything after private, Sheppard can be used to learn (ok, memorize) the exact questions that are in the written tests.

So I’m kind of with Kritchlow - hard to fail these tests when you have access to every single possible question presented on these writtens. I’m never have been a great exam test taker, and I passed my IR written with a 100%.

drill-n-kill the written and then apply your practical knowledge to the…. Well…. The practical.
 
For any of the CFI written tests I am a big fan of knowing and understanding the material. You are wanting to be an instructor. What are you going to do when a student comes to you asking an explanation of a question they missed? Tell them to go the Shepard Air?
 
Kritchlow said:
I’m sorry, but I cannot understand how it’s possible to fail a written test. I mean, most of the questions and answers are actually posted for you to memorize (used to be exact duplicates).

If you put the time in, I find it troubling that anyone can fail.
Now, if you didn’t pick up the book to study….
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Not everyone is able to memorize over 1100 questions and answers.
 
Clip4 said:
For any of the CFI written tests I am a big fan of knowing and understanding the material. You are wanting to be an instructor. What are you going to do when a student comes to you asking an explanation of a question they missed? Tell them to go the Shepard Air?
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No, but practical application is different from passing the test. Get through the test anyway you can, then you can learn the material anyway you want. Or the other way around. Regardless, passing the written should be a no-brainer.
 
murphey said:
Not everyone is able to memorize over 1100 questions and answers.
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Really??? But they are able to obtain an IR..??

The written questions are the easy part. With enough study/practice/rehearsal anyone could do it, including my wife.
 
murphey said:
Not everyone is able to memorize over 1100 questions and answers.
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That’s the great part of Shepard Air. They’re able to take that 1100 and make it about 300.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Kritchlow said:
No, but practical application is different from passing the test. Get through the test anyway you can, then you can learn the material anyway you want. Or the other way around. Regardless, passing the written should be a no-brainer.
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When a student comes to any CFI and asks them to explain why he missed a question on a written knowledge test and they can’t do it, that CFI just failed practical application.
 
This is not surprising the FAA ideas on instructional theory are largely bunk and the written tests are some of the worst crafted (and not even proofread) pieces of junk I've ever seen in any standardized testing. The FAA should do what the FCC did years ago and defer to the public to form a committee to develop the testing pools.
 
murphey said:
Not everyone is able to memorize over 1100 questions and answers.
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No but you don't need to. You are coming into the test with some (hopefully) level of knowledge. Then, you are drilling by repeatedly doing the questions and the answers. That will result in two things, some additional learning (assuming you read the explanations for wrong answers) and some level of natural recognition. Then there's the handful of questions which always get you stuck. That's pretty much the sum total of active memorization and if you don't, you'll still pass the test.

My view of the knowledge test has been the same since the first time I took one 30 years ago. It's a gateway to the practical test. Aside from those few who have a real learning issues which preclude the ability to take standardized tests (they definitely do exist), if you can't get 70% correct on a multiple guess test you study for by reading all the questions and answers, you shouldn't be near things with moving parts.
 
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midlifeflyer said:
No but you don't need to. You are coming into the test with some (hopefully) some level of knowledge. Then, you are drilling by repeatedly doing the questions and the answers. That will result in two things, some additional learning (assuming you read the explanations for wrong answers) and some level of natural recognition. Then there's the handful of questions which always get you stuck. That's pretty much the sum total of active memorization and if yo don't, you'll still pass the test.

My view of the knowledge test has been the same since the first time I took one 30 years ago. It's a gateway to the practical test. Aside from those few who have a real learning issues which preclude the ability to take standardized tests (they definitely do exist), if you can't get 70% correct on a multiple guess test you study for by reading all the questions and answers, you shouldn't be near things with moving parts.
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The last time I took the test was more than 20 years ago, so I don't know how things are now. But back then I found some (many?) questions to be poorly designed and useless indicators of learning. There used to be questions such as wind correction angle, and the answers will be something like 12.1 deg, 12.4 deg and 12.8 deg. We used to calculate these using the infamous whizwheel, so expecting that level of numeric precision was insane. If your answer is 12.3 deg, you will be in a bind. In those cases, I simply memorized the "correct" answer and moved on. Designing a good exam is not easy. The questions should be conceptual yet have a clear answer. All the choices should be equally convincing. With computerized testing it should also be possible to use an intelligent algorithm to identify areas of weakness and dig deeper during the same exam rather than randomly pick questions from a fixed database.
 
sarangan said:
With computerized testing it should also be possible to use an intelligent algorithm to identify areas of weakness and dig deeper during the same exam rather than randomly pick questions from a fixed database.
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That is exactly how GoldMethod.com works.
 
Clip4 said:
When a student comes to any CFI and asks them to explain why he missed a question on a written knowledge test and they can’t do it, that CFI just failed practical application.
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I think you’re missing my point.
 
Sheppard Air, follow their instructions exactly and you’ll get an A+. If you read the explanations on missed questions you will learn it.
 
write-stuff said:
The key to being good at test taking is (big surprise), study. /QUOTE]
I think part of this the tendency (recommendation) to get the knowledge test out of the way. As a number have pointed out, some of the questions have no real practical application. Others are just poorly written. But for the most part they are a test of very basic information. I think you are right that people try to get by on minimal study. But I think another part of that is the trend - and recommendation - particularly at the private and instrument level, to get the test out of the way early, sometimes before flight training has begun.

I definitely understand the trend from an expense and efficiency standpoint. But I am a firm believer that context aids learning. I guess despite some of the silliness in the Aviation Instructor's Handbook and CFI knowledge test, I have significant differences among the rote, understanding, application, and correlation levels of learning. Sitting in a classroom without ever having been in an airplane, discussions of adverse yaw and left turning tendencies can be a mind-numbing exercise in pure rote memorization. Those with a knack for visualization might even understand the concepts. But learn about them at the same time as you are experiencing them in the cockpit, and you will learning it at a higher level.
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Having 3 kids going to college in 4 years and numerous standardized tests in the public school system I aware that there are techniques that can improve your score on any multiple choice standardized test.
 
Kritchlow said:
I think you’re missing my point.
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I understand your point. Some treat the written as a nuisance on the way to a certificate and then they pull out a practical test prep and use that to get them across the finish line. For the private, IR, and comm it works. When one gets to the instructor level one needs to be an instructor.
 
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midlifeflyer said:
No but you don't need to. You are coming into the test with some (hopefully) level of knowledge. Then, you are drilling by repeatedly doing the questions and the answers. That will result in two things, some additional learning (assuming you read the explanations for wrong answers) and some level of natural recognition. Then there's the handful of questions which always get you stuck. That's pretty much the sum total of active memorization and if you don't, you'll still pass the test.

My view of the knowledge test has been the same since the first time I took one 30 years ago. It's a gateway to the practical test. Aside from those few who have a real learning issues which preclude the ability to take standardized tests (they definitely do exist), if you can't get 70% correct on a multiple guess test you study for by reading all the questions and answers, you shouldn't be near things with moving parts.
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But that wasn't how I read the OP - that they only used the ASA material, not the FAA source material or related (Kershner and others). I'm past the ability to memorize 1100+ Q&A (I don't think I ever could altho I still have much of the ANSI FORTRAN standards in my brain as well as K&R C and SUN Java). The reason is classic FOI....I use various software references in 90% of my daily 8-5 life...can't say the same for IFR facts.

I also find the source material an excellent antidote for insomnia....pretty much like my college chemistry textbook. Roommate used to find me asleep at my desk, head on the chem book.
 
Clip4 said:
I understand your point. Some treat the written as a nuisance of the way to a certificate and then they pull out a practical test prep and use that to get them across the finish line. For the private, IR, and comm it works. When one gets to the instructor level one needs to be an instructor.
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No kidding?
 
AggieMike88 said:
I am a other big fan of SheppardAir.

the CFII written is simple rote memory. And SA excels at making that happen (plus my memory aid trick for the holding pattern questions)
Click to expand...
See that's what gets me with these writtens- some say its understanding(obviously we gotta understand it), others that its rote memory. The latter seems difficult because the questions are reworded so drastically on the real things and it throws me off when I try to rework it.
 
flyingron said:
This is not surprising the FAA ideas on instructional theory are largely bunk and the written tests are some of the worst crafted (and not even proofread) pieces of junk I've ever seen in any standardized testing. The FAA should do what the FCC did years ago and defer to the public to form a committee to develop the testing pools.
Click to expand...

And you've taken all of what? Two FAA writtens in your life? o_O:rolleyes:
 
Max Frankow said:
See that's what gets me with these writtens- some say its understanding(obviously we gotta understand it), others that its rote memory. The latter seems difficult because the questions are reworded so drastically on the real things and it throws me off when I try to rework it.
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For the CFII, if you are an active pilot flying IFR, the vast bulk of the answers you already know from your flying experience. There is hardly anything new to memorize. And there is zero instructional oriented questions.

I guess I don’t understand your complaint or personal roadblock.

Can and should the existing system be completely overhauled and improved? Oh hell yeah. But for the moment we got what we got and need to work within the framework if we desire to move onward and upward
 
AggieMike88 said:
For the CFII, if you are an active pilot flying IFR, the vast bulk of the answers you already know from your flying experience. There is hardly anything new to memorize. And there is zero instructional oriented questions.

I guess I don’t understand your complaint or personal roadblock.

Can and should the existing system be completely overhauled and improved? Oh hell yeah. But for the moment we got what we got and need to work within the framework if we desire to move onward and upward
Click to expand...
It has just been awhile since I flew instruments. But its coming together after reevaluating my study technique.
 
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