What the OP wanted was more than some instrument instruction. He wanted the required three hours in preparation for the check ride, and the instructor's signature that he was ready for the check ride. A thorough review of the logbook was certainly warranted, especially since some of the "instrument instruction" was not from an "authorized instructor". Perhaps the CFII was more critical than he needed to be, but in view of all the factors, maybe not. And, he was a newly-minted CFII, and understandably cautious.
Have You Ever Paid Anyone to Interview them for a Job?
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MBDiagMan
Final Approach
Since when does it have to be full time to be classified as a job? I was speaking with him to determine whether or not I was interested in paying him for work? How is that NOT a job interview? I’ve interviewed hundreds of people so I think I’m quite competent in determining what is and what is NOT a job interview. If the neighbor kid knocks on the door and asks if I’ll pay him to mow my lawn for a fee, the discussion we have before I agree is a job interview.
If you will read in my OP the wording of the message I wrote to him, you will see that I was asking when he could sit down to discuss the project. Once he went off on the path he did and said I owed him for two hours, as I previously wrote, I paid without complaint. He got his $100 and in return I learned that he was not the man for the job.
My mistake was letting him lead the conversation. In job interviews you have to wind them up and let them go sometimes to see where they take the conversation. Not a good technique in this case because he had it in mind that I had committed to training with him and was already doing so.
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Ryan F.
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Ryan Ferguson 1974
Sure, I think that's probably all this is -- some confusion over expectations during this initial meeting.
A glass half-full view may reveal a detail-oriented instructor who is careful to review his student's aeronautical experience and "prime the pump," so to speak, on a good start towards a positive outcome. I do understand the frustration of spending time and paying money for what seems to be no forward movement.
texasclouds
En-Route
As a CFII, I would have told you over the phone whether or not I was willing to fly in the 140. If yes, I would have showed up, asked what you needed the most practice on, spent 2 min looking at your logbook, then flew with you. After two flights, if you were doing well, I would give you a mock checkride. If that went well, then look through your logbook closer to confirm the required entries while filling out an 8710. That would probably take an hour and I’d charge you for that part.
MBDiagMan
Final Approach
Thanks Ryan.
My negative reaction to him was not be cause it cost me a hundred bucks. He had a distrusting and negative attitude toward me and implications that are difficult to describe in words on a forum.
I understand perfectly that he wanted to ensure that my logbook was in order before the checkride, but he went about the process in a way that heavily implied that he didn’t believe I was telling the truth and didn’t believe that I knew what the requirements are. To have a working relationship with someone adequate for entering such a project, there has to be trust and confidence in each other. In my many years old doing business with people I have learned that when someone doesn’t trust you it is a flag telling me that I should be cautious in trusting THEM. Not a good start to a project like this.
There are many students and many instructors. You can’t just throw any student together with any instructor and expect an efficient training cycle.
Vance Breese
Cleared for Takeoff
The original poster has had a number of CFIIs over a protracted period of time complete log book entries that the DPE will check.
Part of the CFIIs job is to see that the poster is in fact ready for the practical test after three hours of dual instruction in preparation for the test.
In my opinion the first thing for the new to the poster’s CFII to do is to verify that the log books are in order and identify any additional tasks that need to be completed.
It appears to me that the CFII was approaching the task in a professional way.
It puzzles me that many here appear to feel the CFII should not charge for performing this necessary task as first step in creating the syllabus to prepare for the practical test.
A hundred dollars seems like money well spent to avoid a discontinuance and verify the log books are complete and correct.
I have checked enough log books to know that the odds are I will find something amiss.
Part of the CFIIs job is to see that the poster is in fact ready for the practical test after three hours of dual instruction in preparation for the test.
In my opinion the first thing for the new to the poster’s CFII to do is to verify that the log books are in order and identify any additional tasks that need to be completed.
It appears to me that the CFII was approaching the task in a professional way.
It puzzles me that many here appear to feel the CFII should not charge for performing this necessary task as first step in creating the syllabus to prepare for the practical test.
A hundred dollars seems like money well spent to avoid a discontinuance and verify the log books are complete and correct.
I have checked enough log books to know that the odds are I will find something amiss.
Vance Breese
Cleared for Takeoff
§ 61.65 Instrument rating requirements.
(6) Receive a logbook or training record endorsement from an authorized instructor certifying that the person is prepared to take the required practical test;
It appears to me the CFI takes responsibility for the person being prepared.
Log books are a part of that.
(6) Receive a logbook or training record endorsement from an authorized instructor certifying that the person is prepared to take the required practical test;
It appears to me the CFI takes responsibility for the person being prepared.
Log books are a part of that.
RussR
En-Route
To be pedantic, but maybe not really, it shouldn't be a discontinuance at that point - the checkride would not have been started because the applicant would not have been eligible. Still a bad reflection on the CFI and applicant, but not a discontinuance.
Ryan F.
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Quite right, Russ -- and, from an examiner's standpoint, may potentially be worse -- because there was no way to get the practical test underway resulting in a lost opportunity for other applicants who have been waiting patiently. Aside from a Notice of Disapproval, it is my least favorite result of the scheduling effort required to meet in one place at one time with flyable weather.
MBDiagMan
Final Approach
I appreciate and agree with your input. Where your response does not match up with our situation is that my goal was to discuss whether or not to move forward with my training with him. Had we already agreed on that, I would have gone through the logbook with him using a fine tooth comb and paid the going rate for that. He, however, presented it in a contentious way, insinuating that I was either lying or was too ignorant to understand the FAR’s. As I told him to start with, I had all the requirements met except for the three hours and I proved myself correct. If we had already agreed to fly together it would have been much different. In that case, yes, it was his job to see that I met the requirements although I would expect him to do it in a less accusational way.
Something I would like to add. I have experience several different instructors and like other people they are different. Most of them are not like this one and another instructor I know well. This one quickly loses sight of who is writing the paychecks in this arrangement.
If people on this forum could meet me face to face they would know that I’m a pretty easy to get along with kind of guy. I think I proved that by handing over a hundred bucks to pay for being insulted and handed it over with a smile.
The expectation to get paid for the time spent looking at your prior training and coming up with a lesson plan to finish up should have been explained up front. Other than that, I don't see an issue with it. Had you decided to go with someone else after hearing his (possibly unreasonable) expectations, he would have been out two hours of his time without compensation. It's not a sales-call or interview.
MBDiagMan
Final Approach
This is in response to the quoted post and a few previous to that one regarding the logbook responsibility.
Although I agree that the instructor signing the logbook saying requirements are met so it is technically his responsibility, I guess I look at such things from a perspective of assuming more personal responsibility than some other people.
Let’s just say that I were signed off for the ride and went over there for the ride with material and airplane in hand. Let’s say I handed the DPE five hundred bucks to pay for the ride and sat down to go through the process. Let’s say that I got ten minutes into the process and while checking my logbook he found that I didn’t meet the requirements in some category. I guess in that case some people would go griping to their instructor that they didn’t check the log books. Not me. That’s not the way I operate. In my mind I am responsible for my own actions. It’s my fault. If it cost me five hundred bucks I would take the loss and move on without blaming anyone else. By the same token, I paid the instructor last Tuesday with a smile on my face and made no mention at all about the misunderstanding. Although I thought my initial contact clearly indicated I wanted to just sit down and talk about it, he took that as a lesson. I could say it was all his fault, but the problem with that is that it takes two to communicate and I was one of those two.
Larry in TN
En-Route
When I was instructing, I tired to be thorough in record keeping.
While training a student for a rating I'd use an unused column in his logbook to track ground instruction and would use it for both ground-only sessions as well as to log the pre/post-flight instruction on each lesson. I had checklists for each rating which included all FAR requirements. I'd print one for each student and keep it in his training folder. When I covered each required topic, or accomplished a required element of experience, I'd endorse it in his logbook and check it off from the checklist. This ensured I didn't skip a requirement and that all requirements were documented in his logbook and in my records.
When a student would come to me to continue training, that had been started with another instructor, my first step was to go through his logbook and checkoff everything that had been taught or completed on the checklist. This would leave me with a list of things that had not yet been completed which was particularly helpful to me as the previous instructor(s) may have done things in a different order than I did them so it made it easier for me to structure my lessons to efficiently cover the items that were still needed.
I never charged a student for the time I spent reviewing his logbook as I'd be billing flight and ground time for our lessons while completing his training. I never had a student come to me for just the last three hours of checkride prep, though. If such a student needed extensive review work on my part I might have decided to charge for it but I would have discussed that with them first after my initial review of their situation.
While training a student for a rating I'd use an unused column in his logbook to track ground instruction and would use it for both ground-only sessions as well as to log the pre/post-flight instruction on each lesson. I had checklists for each rating which included all FAR requirements. I'd print one for each student and keep it in his training folder. When I covered each required topic, or accomplished a required element of experience, I'd endorse it in his logbook and check it off from the checklist. This ensured I didn't skip a requirement and that all requirements were documented in his logbook and in my records.
When a student would come to me to continue training, that had been started with another instructor, my first step was to go through his logbook and checkoff everything that had been taught or completed on the checklist. This would leave me with a list of things that had not yet been completed which was particularly helpful to me as the previous instructor(s) may have done things in a different order than I did them so it made it easier for me to structure my lessons to efficiently cover the items that were still needed.
I never charged a student for the time I spent reviewing his logbook as I'd be billing flight and ground time for our lessons while completing his training. I never had a student come to me for just the last three hours of checkride prep, though. If such a student needed extensive review work on my part I might have decided to charge for it but I would have discussed that with them first after my initial review of their situation.
MBDiagMan
Final Approach
I am sort of on the fence about this. He misunderstood my intention. I told him I wanted to discuss the project. We could have done that in a short phone call, but instead he wanted my logbook and such and implied that he didn’t believe me.
He is in business to sell a service. Why is every minute spent with somebody billable time? I spent many years in the automation industry we spent thousands in travel expenses and our time to win projects without being paid a dime. We did it for the opportunity to win their business. Why is flight instruction any different? There’s this concept called competition. Competition makes everyone better.
In my case I expect I would have taken the meeting if I knew I was going to have to pay for it. So, I am afraid I disagree. It was a sales call or an interview. A sales call might have been a better description. Either way, I asked for a few minutes and he chose to make it hours and be paid for it, and guess what? He was cheerfully paid for it. We both are happy. He got a hundred bucks, and I now know that I don’t want to fly with him.
And by the way, he produced no lesson plan. He spent time insinuating that I was dishonest and ignorant followed by making me list the books I must read and informing me that I would have to go through all phases of the training over again.
The good news is that after the things I’ve gone through it has all come together and I can p, with zero doubt, fly well on instruments. My long IFR cross country was almost entirely in IMC and I did great if I do say so myself. I have flown on instruments a LOT lately, all by hand and my track logs look like they were flown with an autopilot. I am there with my flying now. I just need to finish up and find a DPE that will fly in my 140.
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MBDiagMan
Final Approach
As an update, I now have more than three hours check ride prep, so all bullet item requirements are met. I’m pretty constantly studying material for the oral and flying when I can.
Tarheelpilot
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Tarheelpilot
Based on the OP’s description of the interaction I don’t agree with your assessment.
The instructor was out of bounds in his behavior and his expectation of payment.
The payment expectations could have easily been a misunderstanding. The OP acknowledged that and stated he paid without hesitation.
The instructors demeanor cost him a paying client.
After the fact, I agree.
Had the instructor said up front: 'You know, I have spent a lot of time going over peoples logbooks and 1/2 of them never show up for their first lesson. I now do a first ground lesson to do all those things and my charge for that is $50/hr. If you are ok with that, we can meet on Wed night.'
...it would be a-ok.
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
The interview should have ended right there, IMO.
dell30rb
Final Approach
X2.. I am a CFII
A sign-off and sending a student to a DPE is your personal stamp of approval that they are 100% ready and have all their stuff in order. It is not unreasonable at all to pay for an hour or two of time to verify your logbooks.
Tarheelpilot
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No one is disagreeing with you but it would be more appropriate to conduct that review after you are actually the instructor hired to finish the training.
It would also be beneficial not to conduct that review like you were interrogating a suspect in a criminal case. It sure sounds like that’s how this particular cfi handled the interaction.
Tarheelpilot
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I have kept mine but I only have used it in very limited circumstances.
dmspilot
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Well for starters, you didn't tell him "I would like to give you a job interview". You requested his services and he gave them to you. Secondly, interviewing "hundreds of people" is irrelevant as just because you do something hundreds of times doesn't mean you do it correctly.
Sure seems like you're complaining to me.
com·plain
/kəmˈplān/
verb
express dissatisfaction or annoyance about something.
MBDiagMan
Final Approach
Dmspilot,
If you will read my OP again closely, you will see that I DID NOT request his services. I wrote him that I wanted to discuss flying with him. We could have done it over the phone, but he said meet him at the terminal at a particular time.
I would not have asked for two of his hours free. I asked to discuss and left whether it was by phone or in person up to him. He carved out a lesson from that. One that I respectfully paid for.
I didn’t complain to him. Would you prefer that I complained to him and NOT paid him? I am discussing the whole experience here and yes it has turned into a complaint here I suppose. Complaining here seems quite different than complaining to him rather than paying him.
If you will read my OP again closely, you will see that I DID NOT request his services. I wrote him that I wanted to discuss flying with him. We could have done it over the phone, but he said meet him at the terminal at a particular time.
I would not have asked for two of his hours free. I asked to discuss and left whether it was by phone or in person up to him. He carved out a lesson from that. One that I respectfully paid for.
I didn’t complain to him. Would you prefer that I complained to him and NOT paid him? I am discussing the whole experience here and yes it has turned into a complaint here I suppose. Complaining here seems quite different than complaining to him rather than paying him.
MBDiagMan
Final Approach
It sounds to me like there are some instructors and DPE’s on here that have had bad experiences with some students and they are assuming that I am like those unreasonable, unpunctual students and maybe consider me to be like them without ever meeting me.
My opinion of the flight instruction people is much different. I have massive respect for those who have achieved the status. I am one to know not to think that all instructors are like the one I decided not to fly with. I really expect that not all students are late and disrespectful like the one complained about earlier.
I am someone that obeys rules, is courteous, punctual, respectful and very easy to get along with.
My opinion of the flight instruction people is much different. I have massive respect for those who have achieved the status. I am one to know not to think that all instructors are like the one I decided not to fly with. I really expect that not all students are late and disrespectful like the one complained about earlier.
I am someone that obeys rules, is courteous, punctual, respectful and very easy to get along with.
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dmspilot
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I don't know you and I'm not assuming you to be unreasonable and unpunctual. You did indeed call it a job interview, which makes you seem self-important. But then you backtrack and say you just wanted to discuss flying over the phone. So which is it? If the latter, you could have just called him.
I think most would "prefer" that people don't make ambiguous requests and then put 100% of the blame on the other person for the resultant miscommunication. I'm not saying the CFII in question is blameless, but there are always two sides...
MBDiagMan
Final Approach
Wait a minute! I said in this thread more than once that it takes two to communicate, so I paid the bill. I NEVER laid 100% of the blame for miscommunication on him. I admitted that I was part of the miscommunication problem.
I never back tracked about a phone call. I quoted word for word what I texted him. I had texted him because I had been unable to reach him on the phone.
Why on Earth does my calling it a job interview make me seem self important?
When someone has a discussion about whether or not they will hire someone for services for pay not a job interview? Good grief!
I am not sure that you are not just trying to irritate me. Either that or maybe you’re offended because I don’t claim that all flight instructors are perfect. I’ll tell ya’ I know some CFI’s that are incredibly solid instructors and all around great people, in fact most I know are, but a few of them don’t fall in that category. I have just been unlucky when they’re other flying jobs cause them to move away or otherwise makes them too busy to do general instruction.
I never back tracked about a phone call. I quoted word for word what I texted him. I had texted him because I had been unable to reach him on the phone.
Why on Earth does my calling it a job interview make me seem self important?
When someone has a discussion about whether or not they will hire someone for services for pay not a job interview? Good grief!I am not sure that you are not just trying to irritate me. Either that or maybe you’re offended because I don’t claim that all flight instructors are perfect. I’ll tell ya’ I know some CFI’s that are incredibly solid instructors and all around great people, in fact most I know are, but a few of them don’t fall in that category. I have just been unlucky when they’re other flying jobs cause them to move away or otherwise makes them too busy to do general instruction.
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MBDiagMan
Final Approach
I completely agree that paying for this service is reasonable, and I did pay. What is difficult to convey is the demeaning manner in which he went about it and assuming that I knew it was a lesson and not just a few minutes to discuss. He is the one that stretched what I thought was a few minutes to discuss if we would go forward and when, but he stretched that simple request into two hours with a bill.
dell30rb
Final Approach
Wait a minute! I said in this thread more than once that it takes two to communicate, so I paid the bill. I NEVER laid 100% of the blame for miscommunication on him. I admitted that I was part of the miscommunication problem.
I never back tracked about a phone call. I quoted word for word what I texted him. I had texted him because I had been unable to reach him on the phone.
Why on Earth does my calling it a job interview make me seem self important?
I am not sure that you are not just trying to irritate me.
I get that there could have been a little miscommunication, and some assumptions taken place. I understand that is all it was, so don't worry, no judgement here.
You stated this guy is an airport acquaintance. I'm guessing it is also safe to say that you have a ballpark idea of what he charges for flight instruction.
Let me just put you in my shoes, if an acquaintance texts me and asks if I can help finish up their rating, and I say "yea, meet me at the airport tomorrow at 3:30" i'd plan to spend 2-3 hours with them going through their experience, formulating a plan to finish up, and get paid for the time I spent with them. Because its an acquaintance, they are already a pilot, they know I am an instructor and they have an idea what this will cost, I am not treating our first meeting as a job interview or giving a lecture on cost.
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MBDiagMan
Final Approach
Thanks for offering your perspective. I completely respect it. I expect though that you do not insinuate that your student is lying and doesn’t know what he’s talking about. In my case I was telling the truth, knew what I was talking about and proved it to him, while paying him for the privilege of doing so.
Ted
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iFlyNothing
I strongly considered letting mine lapse when I had to do the renewal last month. But one day my kids may want to learn how to fly, so I did the renewal.
To the OP's post, the interaction seems to me like what I'd expect from a newer and inexperienced CFII, which you said he was. What I mean by that is that he's giving a huge stack of books to read and wanting to review (in detail) every maneuver, probably more than anything because he himself doesn't have enough experience to be able to talk to you and fly with you a bit to see that you know what you need to know and are ready. That's something that you get the hang of more with experience. Taking over someone's training, especially towards the end, in my opinion is a good bit harder than starting from day 1.
As to the charging for the time, I think that could really go either way. Personally I don't think I would have charged for it. I also don't think it's unreasonable for him to do so.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
CFI was a b-hole.
I never charge for an initial meeting, even if it goes 2 hours - which they have. But I'm also not doing for money and only charge $25 hr for flight time and $0 for ground.
I never charge for an initial meeting, even if it goes 2 hours - which they have. But I'm also not doing for money and only charge $25 hr for flight time and $0 for ground.
Marshall Alexander
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malexander
I agree with this.
I'm a "new " 62 year old CFI myself. When the DPE asked me why I was getting my CFI I told him it was to "give-back" to the aviation community. I told him I didn't need the hours for the airlines because that's NOT where I'm going, and I damn sure don't need the money. It seems to me like most CFIs are like lawyers, they're good friends till they get that paper, then there's no such thing as a favor for a friend. I know lot of CFIs paid for everything they have......but I personally know of some that made it all the way to the top with someone else's money.
A lot of flight instructors (or people, for that matter) are mercenary in that they only give if they GET. Sounds to me this person fits that category. Unfortunately, learning this cost Doc $100...and a sore tongue from biting it.
Doc....thanks for sharing. Good luck! Really rooting for you.
Doc....thanks for sharing. Good luck! Really rooting for you.
Marshall Alexander
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malexander
I have to agree with you to some extent. But, I do know for a fact that not all who GET are willing to give.
I have to agree with you to some extent. But, I do know for a fact that not all who GET are willing to give.
guzziguy
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guzziguy
The difference being is the bolded section: you were hired for a specific item. What you describe is perfectly legitimate to charge for.
Tarheelpilot
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RussR
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Your statement that I was responding to was that a CFI is not paid for his time, but for the instruction provided. And I disagree. In my example you responded to, there was 1.5 hours of instruction, and 0.5 of standing around doing nothing. During that time, in that scenario, I would not be providing instruction. However, I would expect to be paid for my time, since you are the one using my time. Notice I'm not talking about me showing up and chatting with the girl at the FBO desk when I should be with you. I'm talking about doing nothing because you didn't get there ahead of time and get things ready so that we can start when I arrive. That's it. No instruction, but I'm there at your request, available for you, so I'm charging. NOT necessarily related to the OP's scenario.