Had a bitter experience today with a IR dude

[WannFly]

i will try to describe this as best as possible. great weather today so i cut out of work early and went for a short XC, 56 nm, so would could for rating. glass smooth air, i am aware Grand Forks airspace gets busy with student and i was going to Crookston(KCKN), so asked for Radar service which i got. approaching the airport 7 miles out, there are 10 planes that i can see in ADSB and some are pretty close..like 2 nm close. really got my attention.

approaching the rny, i announced on CTAF - will cross 13 midfield and enter a left downwind for 13 (winds favoring 13). got 2 responses back to back.. 2 other dudes (1 from UND for sure, not sure of the other one), shooting RNAV 31 and will do low approach. I didnt have visual, so stayed high, spoke to one pilot on the CTAF, he couldnt see me either and he said he is going to depart the field after another approach. i told him, fine, i will stay out of his way. the second dude, didnt say a word.

IR dude 1 (UND) - did his approach and departed
i announced my intentions of entering downwind again on 13, announced base, then final. at 2 mile final IR dude 2 tuned up and announced he is doing low approach on RNAV 31. i am like WTF... side stepped and went around, there was another Cessna (student pilot with a CFI onboard, local to the field) in the air who tuned up an said we are using rny 13. IR dude 2 - didnt gave a damn announced low approach 31 RNAV.

i thought of not getting into the pizzing match and went 3 miles off, over the city of Crookston and announced that i will circle here until this is sorted out.

2 more rounds the Cessna tried to do pattern work on 13, every time the IR dude 2 ignored everything and did low approach on 31. finally the CFI guess got pizzed off and went NORDO and just stayed in pattern, with the IR dude messing around in the opposite direction, while i circled over the city mumbling all the choice words i could think of.

finally the IR Dude 2, didnt announce anything, and just departed, god knows which direction (i think, because the cessna started doing radio calls again)...

anyway, it was quite messy, i had to stay up there 30 mins trying to figure out what the hell i am supposed to do in all this mess (at times the IR dude would not announce which way he is going to go and it was incredibly hard keeping track of him and the cessna in opposite direction).... and i HAD TO PEE.

lesson : stay out of Grand Forks airspace + expect the unexpected macho dumbazz doing dumbazz things risking everyone else's life

God i love towered fields

 

[coloradobluesky]

Dude! That Dude Duded ME!!!

 

[Hank S]

A-holes are everywhere. Really makes you want to mount a gun, doesn't it?

 

[RyanB]

Been there before. Be prepared for pilots like those. Sounds like you made a smart decision!

 

[James331]

Did you try to communicate and coordinate with the other traffic, call out IR 2?

I've noticed some folks just make calls but don't seem to do the 2 way communication thing.

 

[NoHeat]

You stayed out of trouble. Good for you. Next time, just bring an empty Gatorade bottle.

 

[catmandu]

I speculate he had CTAF on radio #2 and the volume was turned down, had no idea he was not alone. NORDO aircraft come in many forms.

 

[WannFly]

Did you try to communicate and coordinate with the other traffic, call out IR 2?

I've noticed some folks just make calls but don't seem to do the 2 way communication thing.

Both me and the Cessna told him we are using 13 for landing. He ignored the 2 way comm and kept announcing his RNAV intentions.

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[WannFly]

I speculate he had CTAF on radio #2 and the volume was turned down, had no idea he was not alone. NORDO aircraft come in many forms.

Nopes he was communicating. The Cessna told him, if I are going to lqnd, everyone else is using 13. His reply, I am low approach only.

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[weilke]

Normal for UND.

 

[James331]

Both me and the Cessna told him we are using 13 for landing. He ignored the 2 way comm and kept announcing his RNAV intentions.

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Yeah that sucks, it's like why bother plugging both your headset plugs in if you're only going to use your mouth and not your ears.

 

[Palmpilot]

The puzzling thing is that there is an RNAV approach to Rwy 13 that he could have used.

Another puzzling thing is that the starting point for the approach is over 11 miles out, so I don't understand why there wasn't enough time between his low approaches for you to get in.

 

[WannFly]

The puzzling thing is that there is an RNAV approach to Rwy 13 that he could have used.

Another puzzling thing is that the starting point for the approach is over 11 miles out, so I don't understand why there wasn't enough time between his low approaches for you to get in.

That's good to know, if only he made that clear how far he was from the runway... that makes sense as to why the CFI stayed in the pattern and didn't bother. I didn't have visual on the IR dude

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[Tantalum]

He was most likely a student out practicing... at least I would hope. The no radio calls thing gets on my nerves too. I've flown safety pilot with people who don't call in on the CTAF until we're passed the FAF.. I kind of just find that rude. Also, I know when I was VFR only I would have no idea what "low approach RNAV 13" means.. much easier to say something like "8 miles northeast, will be flying low approach straight in to runway XX and will stay above 1,900 then depart to the southwest" or something

The DA can be quite high on the circling approaches so when doing practice like this I've had other people in the pattern just tell me they'll stay 500 fee below

 

[weilke]

The puzzling thing is that there is an RNAV approach to Rwy 13 that he could have used.

His orders said to practice approach 31 and that's what he did.

The chinese kids at UND aren't known for flexibility. As long as they have a babysitter who can intervene, they act like aircraft. Once they are solo, your best bet is to treat them like a UAV on a pre-programmed course and unable to communicate its intentions.

 

[WannFly]

He was most likely a student out practicing... at least I would hope. The no radio calls thing gets on my nerves too. I've flown safety pilot with people who don't call in on the CTAF until we're passed the FAF.. I kind of just find that rude. Also, I know when I was VFR only I would have no idea what "low approach RNAV 13" means.. much easier to say something like "8 miles northeast, will be flying low approach straight in to runway XX and will stay above 1,900 then depart to the southwest" or something

The DA can be quite high on the circling approaches so when doing practice like this I've had other people in the pattern just tell me they'll stay 500 fee below

ok that pizzes me off more... my definition of low approach as a VFR pilot if right over the runway. I could have easily landed with room to spare
no wonder the CFI in the Cezzna didn't bother and went NORDO

 

[WannFly]

His orders said to practice approach 31 and that's what he did.

The chinese kids at UND aren't known for flexibility. As long as they have a babysitter who can intervene, they act like aircraft. Once they are solo, your best bet is to treat them like a UAV on a pre-programmed course and unable to communicate its intentions.

lol. I know what u mean. this dude wasn't Chinese kid, could be his safety pilot .. donno... I aint going in their airspace anytime soon... got my stamp, am good for now

 

[weilke]

lol. I know what u mean. this dude wasn't Chinese kid, could be his safety pilot .. donno... I aint going in their airspace anytime soon... got my stamp, am good for now

Crookston and all the other little fields within 80nm of GF are like that. UND does it's thing and everyone else is to get out of the way.

 

[Palmpilot]

ok that pizzes me off more... my definition of low approach as a VFR pilot if right over the runway. I could have easily landed with room to spare

There's no reason to assume that the pilot you heard was staying that high. The minimum altitude for the approach he was flying is from 260 to 483 AGL, depending on which version of the approach he was flying.

 

[Palmpilot]

That's good to know, if only he made that clear how far he was from the runway... that makes sense as to why the CFI stayed in the pattern and didn't bother. I didn't have visual on the IR dude

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Multiple instrument approaches to the same runway by a single aircraft will normally take long enough for someone else to land between approaches. I would just wait until he had climbed above pattern altitude and then land.

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[Kritchlow]

I see a bigger deal here for opposite direction takeoffs... Landings with an approach in the opposite isn’t really that big of a deal.
Think circling approaches.

 

[Tantalum]

aren't known for flexibility. As long as they have a babysitter who can intervene, they act like aircraft. Once they are solo, your best bet is to treat them like a UAV on a pre-programmed course and unable to communicate its intentions.

^^this. I think "outside the box" thinking would be an important thing to ingrain in many students prior to them going solo. Just the other day tower gave an instruction 4 times for a pilot to make left traffic.. but the guy kept making right traffic, the radio exchange was disastrous. Finally the tower gave him a full stop clearance on his last landing. This was after a back and forth in the runup area... then the guy flew the wrong traffic in the air, and tower made him full stop. The language barrier was epic.

no wonder the CFI in the Cezzna didn't bother and went NORDO

Depends on the circling minimums and the airport. Looks like at KCKN the RNAV 31 circling minimum is 1380... which is pretty low given that the airport is 900 elevation so I don't think you could have snuck under him unfortunately!

ok that pizzes me off more... my definition of low approach as a VFR pilot if right over the runway. I could have easily landed with room to spare

And that's a safe assumption for sure. I fly around more mountainous terrain so the difference is more extreme with the minimums so those are calculated with some protection off the runway ends based on a radius. At the common practice airport here for approaches (uncontrolled) the airport elevation is only 28 feet (it is right on the coast) but the approach minimum is 1140.. the guy who stayed under me that day was in some kind of small old school plane, it was like a Stinson or something so I think he bopped around doing a tight pattern at like 700 agl or something. Either way, the missed approach point is pretty much on top of the runway so you're not really impacting their pattern too much

^and that's assuming they were flying to circling minimums... the RNAV31 at KCKN does have an LPV which is 1157 minimums so that's pretty low given 900 airport elev.. other than the procedure turn the approach seems brain-dead simple, so I'm wondering why he'd be practicing it over and over again. Strange.

 

[oregonboy109]

Ya our airspace up here can get messy when the weather is nice...CKN is overused imo for our IR ops since it's so popular VFR plus CKN flight school stuff. We do our best but always gonna be some issues especially now with new IR students getting going this semester.

Normal for UND.

Care to elaborate?

 

[@Sinistar]

I've learned at our little airport when someone does a RNAV and completes the low approach...they love to come in and buzz the field pretty low, definitely less than 1/2 pattern altitude. Of course 90% of the time that low approach is downwind too.

About a 2 months ago we had a Bonanza come in like this at night. His lights were so bright and looking like he was gonna land in about 20 seconds. It was my first real aborted takeoff. Even chirped the skylane tires a bit to get off on the first taxi way exit.

I think if you are small non-towered field near a busy Delta this will just increase as more and more planes are outfitted to be RNAV capable.

 

[Lndwarrior]

Wow - more than a dozen posts and no one has chastised you that this was somehow all your fault or that you are a wimp for complaining about this. Or they will start parsing your words and finding some fault contained therein.

It's going to happen. I just know it....

 

[Kritchlow]

Wow - more than a dozen posts and no one has chastised you that this was somehow all your fault or that you are a wimp for complaining about this. Or they will start parsing your words and finding some fault contained therein.

It's going to happen. I just know it....

I was attempting that with my post.

 

[WannFly]

Wow - more than a dozen posts and no one has chastised you that this was somehow all your fault or that you are a wimp for complaining about this. Or they will start parsing your words and finding some fault contained therein.

It's going to happen. I just know it....

Am surprised too...

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[Clark1961]

Am surprised too...

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It was all your fault and you are a wimp for posting. Whack yerself!

 

[Sinistar]

I grew up in GF and Crookston. Crookston isn't very big. It would be ironic with these really small airports, especially near busier Delta's with training, figured out a way to charge for RNAV approaches.

So, I obviously don't fully understand the entire approach thing yet. However, hearing that "I'm cool IR guy shooting RNAV..." when there's a few people in the pattern or just arriving VFR or just about to takeoff...kinda sucks. You are not 100% sure if they will land. They often approach from the upwind (opposite) end.

I don't recall anything in the FAR/AIM which calls out the priorities in these situations. For example:
1.) As I am taxing to take off again on runway R31 I hear "Cool dude shooting RNAV for R13..."
2.) I have no clue how far out so I'll just go with he's like 10 miles or 5 minutes???
3.) I full stop at the hold short line a minute later, take a look left and don't see him. Run my pre-takeoff checklist...still don't see or hear him. Its bright daylight so might not even see his landing lights if on.
...so whats a good practice in this situation:

Passive??? Just wait from them to overfly the field or go missed or whatever. I don't like this because even if they go missed, I don't have or understand his approach plate thingy and where he will go next. Plus I'm wasting gas and time while they knock another 0.2 on their instrument rating

Assertive??? Take a really good look, announce I am taking off on R31, wait several seconds for them to respond and then roll out and go. I guess this would make them break off their approach and have to look out the windows. Since they have not announced that they are landing ... who has the priority over the runway and the upwind leg where the two planes might eventually meet?

For IFR pilots: If you hear a plane announce taking off on R31 while you are shooting the R13 RNAV...are you required to immediately go missed or do you keep going if you think the separation will work out?

 

[WannFly]

I grew up in GF and Crookston. Crookston isn't very big. It would be ironic with these really small airports, especially near busier Delta's with training, figured out a way to charge for RNAV approaches.

So, I obviously don't fully understand the entire approach thing yet. However, hearing that "I'm cool IR guy shooting RNAV..." when there's a few people in the pattern or just arriving VFR or just about to takeoff...kinda sucks. You are not 100% sure if they will land. They often approach from the upwind (opposite) end.

I don't recall anything in the FAR/AIM which calls out the priorities in these situations. For example:
1.) As I am taxing to take off again on runway R31 I hear "Cool dude shooting RNAV for R13..."
2.) I have no clue how far out so I'll just go with he's like 10 miles or 5 minutes???
3.) I full stop at the hold short line a minute later, take a look left and don't see him. Run my pre-takeoff checklist...still don't see or hear him. Its bright daylight so might not even see his landing lights if on.
...so whats a good practice in this situation:

Passive??? Just wait from them to overfly the field or go missed or whatever. I don't like this because even if they go missed, I don't have or understand his approach plate thingy and where he will go next. Plus I'm wasting gas and time while they knock another 0.2 on their instrument rating

Assertive??? Take a really good look, announce I am taking off on R31, wait several seconds for them to respond and then roll out and go. I guess this would make them break off their approach and have to look out the windows. Since they have not announced that they are landing ... who has the priority over the runway and the upwind leg where the two planes might eventually meet?

For IFR pilots: If you hear a plane announce taking off on R31 while you are shooting the R13 RNAV...are you required to immediately go missed or do you keep going if you think the separation will work out?

great point and I don't think AIM defines this situation (feel free to tell me I am wrong). but... the cool Dude (IR) is doing practice approach on a VFR day (see and avoid applies), but it is controlled (class Echo) airspace to the ground. the cool dude may or may not be on a IFR plan, I don't know, either ways, on a VFR day I can putter around the airport all day long and not talk to anyone.

 

[mscard88]

I grew up in GF and Crookston. Crookston isn't very big. It would be ironic with these really small airports, especially near busier Delta's with training, figured out a way to charge for RNAV approaches.

So, I obviously don't fully understand the entire approach thing yet. However, hearing that "I'm cool IR guy shooting RNAV..." when there's a few people in the pattern or just arriving VFR or just about to takeoff...kinda sucks. You are not 100% sure if they will land. They often approach from the upwind (opposite) end.

I don't recall anything in the FAR/AIM which calls out the priorities in these situations. For example:
1.) As I am taxing to take off again on runway R31 I hear "Cool dude shooting RNAV for R13..."
2.) I have no clue how far out so I'll just go with he's like 10 miles or 5 minutes???
3.) I full stop at the hold short line a minute later, take a look left and don't see him. Run my pre-takeoff checklist...still don't see or hear him. Its bright daylight so might not even see his landing lights if on.
...so whats a good practice in this situation:

Passive??? Just wait from them to overfly the field or go missed or whatever. I don't like this because even if they go missed, I don't have or understand his approach plate thingy and where he will go next. Plus I'm wasting gas and time while they knock another 0.2 on their instrument rating

Assertive??? Take a really good look, announce I am taking off on R31, wait several seconds for them to respond and then roll out and go. I guess this would make them break off their approach and have to look out the windows. Since they have not announced that they are landing ... who has the priority over the runway and the upwind leg where the two planes might eventually meet?

For IFR pilots: If you hear a plane announce taking off on R31 while you are shooting the R13 RNAV...are you required to immediately go missed or do you keep going if you think the separation will work out?

If the cool dude is not in sight and doesn't say how far they're out from the airport they are, AND you don't see anyone close to the airport, then transmit your intentions and depart. Cool dude has no priority. By announcing you are departing cool dude will know what you're doing, where you're at, etc, IF cool dude is monitoring Unicom. Which they should be doing.

 

[Palmpilot]

Regarding the question about waiting to take off:

...so whats a good practice in this situation:

Passive??? Just wait from them to overfly the field or go missed or whatever. I don't like this because even if they go missed, I don't have or understand his approach plate thingy and where he will go next. Plus I'm wasting gas and time while they knock another 0.2 on their instrument rating

See-and-avoid applies. One thing you might try is asking them if they are planning to land. If the answer is no, you could ask them to let you know when they complete the approach and which direction they will be flying after the approach.

Assertive??? Take a really good look, announce I am taking off on R31, wait several seconds for them to respond and then roll out and go. I guess this would make them break off their approach...

If you force a pilot on final to break off the approach, you have violated 14 CFR 91.113(g), which says, among other things, "Landing. Aircraft, while on final approach to land or while landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or operating on the surface..." I think the FAA considers an aircraft to be on "final approach to land" even if the pilot is not intending to touch down.

On the other hand, if you take off and are able to get clear of the final approach course before the plane on final gets close enough for it to cause them to change course, that would not violate their right-of-way.

...and have to look out the windows.

The pilot at the controls is probably wearing a hood, in which case the safety pilot or instructor should be watching for traffic anyway.

Since they have not announced that they are landing ... who has the priority over the runway and the upwind leg where the two planes might eventually meet?

Right-of-way is not determined by who says what on the radio, it's determined by where the aircraft are and what they are doing, as outlined in 14 CFR 91.113.

For IFR pilots: If you hear a plane announce taking off on R31 while you are shooting the R13 RNAV...are you required to immediately go missed or do you keep going if you think the separation will work out?

No, the plane on final still has the right-of-way as explained above. Of course, wisdom dictates maneuvering to avoid a collision if necessary.

 

[Sinistar]

I guess the most confusing part, especially to a newbie who does not understand IFR rules and procedures is...when does their IFR approach technically transition to being on final?

Under IFR rules, does just announcing you are on the RNAV straight in approach default to the runway being theirs? Does that call imply they are on a final?

We do get a fair number of RNAV approaches at our airport. I have asked them on many occasions of their intentions and it usually works out pretty darn good. I don't think I can ever recall one of them actually landing. It is a little unsettling though when you are sitting behind the hold short line waiting to go. And here comes a SR20 going about 140mph, about 200ft above the runway doing their announced "low approach"...the opposite direction! I've seen that one twice now!!! Makes for a nice view I guess. But dang, if there was a plane just turning final in the pattern it could be nasty.

 

[WannFly]

I guess the most confusing part, especially to a newbie who does not understand IFR rules and procedures is...when does their IFR approach technically transition to being on final?

Under IFR rules, does just announcing you are on the RNAV straight in approach default to the runway being theirs? Does that call imply they are on a final?

We do get a fair number of RNAV approaches at our airport. I have asked them on many occasions of their intentions and it usually works out pretty darn good. I don't think I can ever recall one of them actually landing. It is a little unsettling though when you are sitting behind the hold short line waiting to go. And here comes a SR20 going about 140mph, about 200ft above the runway doing their announced "low approach"...the opposite direction! I've seen that one twice now!!! Makes for a nice view I guess. But dang, if there was a plane just turning final in the pattern it could be nasty.

thats the exact situation i tried to avoid. i asked my CFI after this incident and he said that he teaches all his student (VFR / VFR) to mention 3 things that defines them in space

* where are you in reference to the field
* how far are you from the field
* whats your intention

so a call like we are on RNAV 31 approach, currently 8 miles from the threshold, will go missed / low approach at 400 AGL and depart SE - makes a whole lot of sense
i am doing an RVAN approach on 31 and circling to minimums doesnt mean crap to me (low level VFR guys)

 

[Sinistar]

great point and I don't think AIM defines this situation (feel free to tell me I am wrong). but... the cool Dude (IR) is doing practice approach on a VFR day (see and avoid applies), but it is controlled (class Echo) airspace to the ground. the cool dude may or may not be on a IFR plan, I don't know, either ways, on a VFR day I can putter around the airport all day long and not talk to anyone.

Actually for Crookston, isn't it only Class E to 700agl?? Then again for a IFR RNAV approach at this location it isn't like there is a controller separating things, I take it to mean the VFR guy (me) needs Class E visibility and cloud clearances once he climbs to 700agl and above. But the Class E/G airspace doesn't seem to play much of a role regarding you and IR dude and his epic RNAV approach?

 

[WannFly]

Actually for Crookston, isn't it only Class E to 700agl?? Then again for a IFR RNAV approach at this location it isn't like there is a controller separating things, I take it to mean the VFR guy (me) needs Class E visibility and cloud clearances once he climbs to 700agl and above. But the Class E/G airspace doesn't seem to play much of a role regarding you and IR dude and his epic RNAV approach?

yah 700 AGL for this particular field, but without a tower... none of these will matter

 

[Palmpilot]

I guess the most confusing part, especially to a newbie who does not understand IFR rules and procedures is...when does their IFR approach technically transition to being on final?

I don't think that's well defined for the purpose of determining who has the right-of-way. A case could be made for saying that an aircraft on an instrument approach is on final as soon as they pass the final approach fix or the charted glide slope intercept point (depending on what type of approach they are flying), but I don't know whether it would be safe to assume that an aircraft on the final approach course does not have the right-of-way before that point. I don't think it matters very much, as long as you get out of their way before they get close enough for your presence to cause them to change course. How far out they would have to be in order for a departure to be safe and legal depends on the speed of both aircraft, and requires experience and good judgment.

One thing I would definitely NOT do in that situation is a straight-out departure!

Under IFR rules, does just announcing you are on the RNAV straight in approach default to the runway being theirs? Does that call imply they are on a final.

Regardless of whether they are IFR or VFR, who says what on the radio does NOT determine who has the right-of-way. You are required to avoid flying in such a way as to interfere with an aircraft on final regardless of what is said on the radio, and that's true even if no radio call is made at all (which could happen for a number of reasons). The only thing a radio call does is give you information. And if they don't give enough information to determine whether departing in front of them would be safe and legal, there's nothing wrong with asking for the information you need.

We do get a fair number of RNAV approaches at our airport. I have asked them on many occasions of their intentions and it usually works out pretty darn good.

Good work!

I don't think I can ever recall one of them actually landing. It is a little unsettling though when you are sitting behind the hold short line waiting to go. And here comes a SR20 going about 140mph, about 200ft above the runway doing their announced "low approach"...the opposite direction! I've seen that one twice now!!! Makes for a nice view I guess. But dang, if there was a plane just turning final in the pattern it could be nasty.

"See and avoid" is not just a slogan!

 

[chartbundle]

* where are you in reference to the field
* how far are you from the field
* whats your intention

so a call like we are on RNAV 31 approach, currently 8 miles from the threshold, will go missed / low approach at 400 AGL and depart SE - makes a whole lot of sense
i am doing an RVAN approach on 31 and circling to minimums doesnt mean crap to me (low level VFR guys)

To add to this.
I can probably guess the RNAV 31 approach at 8 miles is probably 8 miles straight in for 31... How far is 8 miles out on the VOR-A approach? Or worse still, procedure turn inbound on the VOR-A.

I use(and hope most of us) use actual directions and distances. I'm instrument rated, I've flown IFR into my home field many times, but I have no idea where the VOR-A is because there's no way I'd ever fly it for real, so even telling an IFR pilot based at the airport you're on the VOR-A may mean nothing. I had totally forgotten there was one actually.

 

[danhagan]

Did your your ADS-B fail? You should be able to figure out he’s doing 90 knots and time to the runway. He was opposite direction traffic, so he’ll be easy to pick out.

Our field was heavy traffic, all types with a jump zone

 

[coloradobluesky]

Straight in traffic should really announce how many MINUTES out they are, not MILES.
"Why are we doing it that way?"
"Because that's the way we've ALWAYS done it"
"But what if we've been doing it WRONG?"

Change is hard....