GTX345 vs GTX335 w/ FS210

Banjo33

Banjo33

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Banjo33
Trying to decide which is the better way to go here. I’m a FF user, so won’t get the benefits of Connext or flightplan transfer; however, I have a GDL69 (not currently active) and (think) I like the idea of a separate box for AHRS and Bluetooth (upgrade ability later if something new comes along or serviceability if one option goes kaput without having to pull out the whole transponder). Plus, both options looks to be about the same all-in price wise.

Thoughts/recommendations/opinions?

Replacing an old NARCO AT150, pulling the LORAN, and current GPS is a 430W/530W combo.
 
Having flown with both the 335 and the 345, what you are lacking in the 335 is traffic outside of terminal areas. We get traffic with out 345 all over but my buddy's 335 he only gets it close to areas like Denver, so he uses a stratus to give him the -in feed. If you have a stratus, sell it and get a 345. Also the 335 doesn't give you BT to your iPad so again you need some other device. We are considering adding the FS210 so we can push flight plans back and forth but are holding off for the autopilot install, whichever one it ends up being since the GFC500 isn't ready for us for a while.
 
If I went 335, FS 210 would be going in as well. I do have a Stratus, but will be keeping it as I use it sometimes when flying for work or riding along with someone that has nothing. I don’t however want to have to rely on the Stratus for AHRS and ADSB-In in my plane though.

I’m not sure what you mean by “traffic outside of terminals?” What is different between the boxes that you don’t get traffic outside of the terminal area?
 
Banjo33 said:
I’m not sure what you mean by “traffic outside of terminals?” What is different between the boxes that you don’t get traffic outside of the terminal area?
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If you have ADS-B "In" (like your Stratus device), then ADS-B Traffic comes to you from two different sources: a) directly from other aircraft who have ADS-B Out and, b) a datalink from the ground of both ADS-B-out equipped aircraft AND non-ADS-B-Out aircraft who are currently being seen by ATC radar. The datalink from the ground is not a widespread broadcast -- instead, it's a "personalized" report for each aircraft, containing traffic within 15 NM and +/- 3500' altitude of that individual aircraft. The clinker is that this datalink is not a widespread broadcast -- instead, it's compiled and transmitted only to aircraft that are equipped with ADS-B Out.

If all that you have is ADS-B In, (i.e., a Stratus, etc.), then the only way that you'll see ground datalink information is if you happen to "intercept" a datalink transmission that's meant for a nearby "Out"-equipped airplane. That's not unusual if you're in a busy terminal area, but -- if you're out in the sticks -- then the only traffic that you're likely to see is air-to-air transmissions from ADS-B-Out-equipped aircraft. The rest of the traffic that's out there won't show up until you yourself equip with ADS-B Out.

Both the GTX 335 and GTX 345 give you ADS-B Out. The GTX 345, additionally, gives you ADS-B In.
 
We recently installed a GTX-345 to complement our installed GNS-530/430 units and also panel mounted a Aera 660. Could not be happier. We have traffic and weather on the 530/430 and with the 660 we get Target Trend which is very valuable. The audio traffic callouts from the GTX-345 are very accurate. Since the 660 is panel mounted it gets is power from the plane and also ges a direct weather/ traffic feed from the GTX-345 including AHRS so it is also an effective back-up AI. The 660 was about $1,300 installed. We have two Bluetooth connections from the GTX-345 that we use to send traffic and weather to our iPads. At the same time we also did a swap of our GMA-340 audio panel for the new GMA-345 slide in replacement which has some great features including a USB charging port.
 
If you have a 430W/530W, this is a non-decision. You really need to get the FS210 for certain and the GTX-345. 60 days after it's installed, you'll completely forget about the extra cost and be grateful for the extra functionality. I went through the same decision process you did with my 430W and ADS-B.

I was a little cash strapped at the time, so I have the avionics shop prewire the FS210 and install the GTX-345. Pre-wiring for the FS210 is cheap, and the labor the install it later was 1.25hrs of shop time.

It's fantastic getting ADS-B In on both the certified panel devices and the iPad. Gives you the option of flying without the iPad or 660 or other extra device. Like Pilotrocker said... the extra information from the devices is great.
 
Banjo33 said:
I’m a FF user, so won’t get the benefits of Connext or flightplan transfer;
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Once you make fight plans in FF and have 1 button push to put them on the GPS, you'll change your mind. FS210 adds years of life to a G430W/530W. You can now more easily fly victor airways and fly specific GPS coordinates for example without all the convoluted knob twisting.
 
Ok, I see where my confusion is. I thought the FS210 had ADSB IN, but that’s only true if you pair it with the GDL 88.
 
Squirrelfury said:
If you have ADS-B "In" (like your Stratus device), then ADS-B Traffic comes to you from two different sources: a) directly from other aircraft who have ADS-B Out and, b) a datalink from the ground of both ADS-B-out equipped aircraft AND non-ADS-B-Out aircraft who are currently being seen by ATC radar. The datalink from the ground is not a widespread broadcast -- instead, it's a "personalized" report for each aircraft, containing traffic within 15 NM and +/- 3500' altitude of that individual aircraft. The clinker is that this datalink is not a widespread broadcast -- instead, it's compiled and transmitted only to aircraft that are equipped with ADS-B Out.
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You have some reference information for this? My understanding is that the rebroadcast occurs when ANY ADS-B out aircraft hits the ground station and it goes to every ADS-B "In" device in the area. That's significantly different than a targeted response to only the "out" aircraft, which would make less sense because dense areas would require many more targeted responses than a broadcast to everyone who can hear it when a single "out" single wakes it up.
 
NordicDave said:
Once you make fight plans in FF and have 1 button push to put them on the GPS, you'll change your mind. FS210 adds years of life to a G430W/530W. You can now more easily fly victor airways and fly specific GPS coordinates for example without all the convoluted knob twisting.
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So with the 345, is this the only increased functionality with the FS210? Does the 345 BT its traffic, wx, etc data to portable devices?
 
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FIS-B weather and traffic continue to flow from the GTX-345 to the certified panel GPS's 430/530W by direct connection, and external non-certified devices via FS210 bluetooth. AHRS data now come from the FS210 instead of the GTX-345. The AHRS & BlueTooth is disabled within the 345, as this small portion is superseded by the FS210.

Combining the FS210 with both the GTX-345 & G430W/530W is a powerful combination. The whole is greater than the sum of the parts. You can also upgrade to a GTN-650/750 and preserve your current investment in the future.

Remember too, to install an OAT probe directly connected to the 345. The probe is like $125 and an hour labor to get realtime density altitude on the 345 in addition to pressure altitude.
 
I love my GTN650, GTX345, and FS510. The GTX345 will feed the ADSB data to both the GTN and to connected BT devices at same time. You control the setup of the GTX345 BT through the GTN setup, same page as the FS510. I've been using both Pilot and FF while I figure out which one I like best. I tried various configuration with Pilot and FF. Both through FS510, and 1 or the other through the GTX345.
 
NordicDave said:
FIS-B weather and traffic continue to flow from the GTX-345 to the certified panel GPS's 430/530W by direct connection, and external non-certified devices via FS210 bluetooth. AHRS data now come from the FS210 instead of the GTX-345. The AHRS & BlueTooth is disabled within the 345, as this small portion is superseded by the FS210.
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Again, it sounds like you’re saying the only feature the FS210 adds is the flightplan transfer?
 
To clarify, the GTX-345 has two Bluetooth connection that can send traffic, weather and AHRS (yes the GTX-345 has a AHRS built into it) to either Garmin Pilot or Foreflight and some of the Garmin Portable Navigators like the Aera 660. The GTX-345 when connected to your audio panel also has audio callouts for traffic that are very accurate e.g. 'traffic 1 mile 10 o'clock'. The GTX-345 will put both regional and national nexrad on the GNS530 and you can have traffic on the 530 and 430 also. The other nugget is Target Trend which we find very useful in the NY airspace that we fly in. However Target Trend will not display on the 530/430 only a GTN 750/650 or a Garmin handheld like the Aera 660 or Garmin Pilot on the iPad. The FlightStream 210 provides the ability to upload flight plans from Garmin Pilot or ForeFlight to the 530/430.
 
Ok, that makes sense, thanks for the clarification. I’m sure the 210 is cool to have, but I just don’t fly that much IFR that often to justify it for now. Like mentioned above, I may go ahead and have the wiring ran for later though. One more question, if you do have the 210, can you manually revert to the 345 AHRS if the 210 goes TU inflight?
 
Definitely pre-wire for the FS210. You will be glad you did. Also if you decide to sell the plane having a GTX-345 and a pre-wired FS210 with the GNS units will increase resale. My opinion talking with a few brokers.. we've turned the corner. Just having ADS-B out will hold an aircraft's value, take dollars away for no ADS-B, and uplifted prices for certified ADS-B in/out with quality gear. The gold standards for resale seem to be the GTX-345 and Lynx 9000.

The market price for used FS210's is $600-700. I bought mine used for $600 and paid the Av shop $150 to re-flash the latest firmware updates, plug it into the pre-wired harness, and configure it.

I'm a VFR pilot and only upload flight plans from FF to the Garmin 430W. Do it once, and you'll never go back.

It would be extremely odd for the AHRS to fail in flight. It's a single surface mounted chip without any external inputs. The plane needs to be on the ground to reconfigure the settings for the GTX-345 and disconnecting the FS210. The AHRS is really for synthetic vision, probably the could lose that as a VFR pilot without any issues.

I'm excited for you! You will greatly enjoy the experience more than might be realized. It's worth it for just getting accurate traffic content.
 
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I appreciate all the feedback dave. I’m sure I’ll like it a lot more after the money is gone and I don’t have to worry about spending it anymore, lol.

I have two ADI’s, two (not quite redundant) alternators, two vacuum pumps, and the aircraft battery, so I guess to have all of that AND the AHRS fail together would be exceptionally rare. I guess I’m just concerned with something in that expensive little box failing, requiring me to pull it and ship away for repair.
 
My personal experience is the Garmin stuff is built like a rock. Please let us know what you finally decide and how it turns out for you.
 
Ravioli said:
You have some reference information for this? My understanding is that the rebroadcast occurs when ANY ADS-B out aircraft hits the ground station and it goes to every ADS-B "In" device in the area. That's significantly different than a targeted response to only the "out" aircraft, which would make less sense because dense areas would require many more targeted responses than a broadcast to everyone who can hear it when a single "out" single wakes it up.
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The response is "targeted" in that it only contains traffic within a 15nm radius of whatever ADS-B out equipped aircraft that triggered the response but said traffic data can be received and used by any other aircraft close enough to the ground based transmitter to receive it. In addition most or all of the ground stations transmit their signal directionally in one of eight sectors so you could be closer to the ground station than the "targeted" aircraft but still not receive the signal if you're not in the same sector.

On the positive side, there may well be multiple "targeted" aircraft in your vicinity which would provide you with decent coverage of the traffic near you.
 
Banjo33 said:
Trying to decide which is the better way to go here. I’m a FF user, so won’t get the benefits of Connext or flightplan transfer; however, I have a GDL69 (not currently active) and (think) I like the idea of a separate box for AHRS and Bluetooth (upgrade ability later if something new comes along or serviceability if one option goes kaput without having to pull out the whole transponder). Plus, both options looks to be about the same all-in price wise.

Thoughts/recommendations/opinions?

Replacing an old NARCO AT150, pulling the LORAN, and current GPS is a 430W/530W combo.
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Nobody has mentioned this yet in this thread, but ForeFlight *DOES* work with Garmin Connext. I have a GTX345, GTN750, and FlightStream 510 and it is really nice to have the ability to send/receive flight plans between ForeFlight and the panel, and get the traffic and weather from the GTX 345 in ForeFlight.

The GTX 345 does what the FlightStream 210 does *except* the flight plan transfer - But spending the money for that is worth it, especially if you have a 430/530 and are still twisting knobs.

The FlightStream 210 does NOT give you ADS-B In, so if you were to get the GTX 335, you'd still need a Stratus or other device to get the ADS-B In.

IMO, the GTX 345 + a FlightStream (510 if you have a GTN 750/650 or 210 if you have the GNS 530/430) is the way to go if you can possibly stretch to make the money work. It's the new gold standard, and having the interaction between the panel and portables in the cockpit is very nice.
 
I am getting very close to pulling the trigger on a 345 to complement my 430W. I currently fly with Foreflight and stratus to add situational awareness to the 430.

Pardon my ignorance, but I read praises about the FS410, but have no idea what it is or what it does.

Thanks for your patience with the dummy.
 
MBDiagMan said:
I am getting very close to pulling the trigger on a 345 to complement my 430W. I currently fly with Foreflight and stratus to add situational awareness to the 430.

Pardon my ignorance, but I read praises about the FS410, but have no idea what it is or what it does.

Thanks for your patience with the dummy.
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There is no FS410 - There's a 510, that only works with the GTN series (since it's an SD card), and there's a 210 that works with both GTN and GNS (ie 430W). They're pretty equivalent except the 510 can update the databases in the GPS, which is really its killer feature.

The only thing the FS210 gives you over what you'll already get via the 345's Bluetooth connection is the ability to send and receive flight plans between your panel and mobile devices. That said, that capability is worth its weight in gold, especially on the 430/530 as it will eliminate a LOT of knob-twisting.
 
Local Avionics shop gave me a quote for the FS210 and 345, but it was a bit outrageous. As it is, it’ll still be $1300 more for just the 345 than the lowest quote I received. However, he can put it in next week and travel to/from/to the other shop would easily cost more than that $1300, so I think due to the higher cost I’m going to forego the 210 and still go with this local installer so it’s done sooner rather than later. It’s just money, right? :confused::(
 
Definitely have the Av shop pre-wire for the FS210. It cost's like 1 hour or a little more for labor now, and much more later. This was the approach I took and snapped in the FS210 a few months later when I found a quality used one.
 
Got my plane back today with the 345 installed. They linked it to my 530 and 430, which was a surprise as I assumed you could only link one navigator. Bluetooth link was easy enough. Saw traffic, weather, etc on all 3 displays as expected. Did fly around a couple of small dissipating cells, and noticed they had drifted about 5 miles from where they were being displayed, which reinforced the warnings to not use it to navigate through severe weather.

One question though, anyone notice significant lag when using the ADHRS on Foreflight? I did a few 20-30 deg angle of bank turns and when I would roll back to wings level, the ADHRS would take about 2 extra seconds to show wings level. I have two AIs, so can’t see myself needing this feature as a backup, which is good as this makes it more of a novelty. I guess if you keep turns very shallow, the lag is minimal enough to not matter. Thoughts?
 
Banjo33 said:
One question though, anyone notice significant lag when using the ADHRS on Foreflight? I did a few 20-30 deg angle of bank turns and when I would roll back to wings level, the ADHRS would take about 2 extra seconds to show wings level. I have two AIs, so can’t see myself needing this feature as a backup, which is good as this makes it more of a novelty. I guess if you keep turns very shallow, the lag is minimal enough to not matter. Thoughts?
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Report that - team@foreflight.com. Be sure to give them the version of software running on the GTX345. It seems like it doesn't always work correctly, and I had to get a software update to my 345 to get it to work at all.

Also, if you have Garmin Pilot, try it there too to see if it's ForeFlight or if the transponder is sending data that slowly.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Report that - team@foreflight.com. Be sure to give them the version of software running on the GTX345. It seems like it doesn't always work correctly, and I had to get a software update to my 345 to get it to work at all.

Also, if you have Garmin Pilot, try it there too to see if it's ForeFlight or if the transponder is sending data that slowly.
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Ok, I will. Do you remember how you got the software version? None of my paperwork has it on it.

I took a video, but after watching it, it was doing something different on that attempt. As I roll the airplane to 25 degrees angle of bank the pitch on FF dropped to 10 deg nose low (I was almost perfectly level) as it rolls to about 15 degrees angle of bank and when I rolled wings level, the roll on FF overshot by 10 deg then the pitch recovered to the horizon. Weird...
 
Banjo33 said:
Ok, I will. Do you remember how you got the software version? None of my paperwork has it on it.
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I got it from the GTN - I think you can probably find it somewhere in the Aux pages on your GNS. Might also be able to find it with the "FUNC" key on the 345.

I took a video, but after watching it, it was doing something different on that attempt. As I roll the airplane to 25 degrees angle of bank the pitch on FF dropped to 10 deg nose low (I was almost perfectly level) as it rolls to about 15 degrees angle of bank and when I rolled wings level, the roll on FF overshot by 10 deg then the pitch recovered to the horizon. Weird...
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That actually kinda sounds like a GTX configuration issue to me.
 
Ravioli said:
You have some reference information for this? My understanding is that the rebroadcast occurs when ANY ADS-B out aircraft hits the ground station and it goes to every ADS-B "In" device in the area. That's significantly different than a targeted response to only the "out" aircraft, which would make less sense because dense areas would require many more targeted responses than a broadcast to everyone who can hear it when a single "out" single wakes it up.
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Correct but you have to configure the 335/345 to transmit your IN capability. You should get the same traffic on your IN device (e.g. Stratus) with either transponder.
 
Coming back to this one for an update.

flyingcheesehead said:
I got it from the GTN - I think you can probably find it somewhere in the Aux pages on your GNS. Might also be able to find it with the "FUNC" key on the 345.



That actually kinda sounds like a GTX configuration issue to me.
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Software version is found in Foreflight, of all places. The Foreflight website actually has a few screenshots about how to find it before asking for technical support.

After contacting Foreflight, their recommendation was “Please confirm that your avionics shop configured the GTX-345 to interface with ForeFlight Mobile Synthetic Vision. Often we see issues like this when this is not the case.

Let us know if there is anything else we can do for you - we're happy to help.” which isn’t even applicable to the GTX-345 or this situation. If the two boxes weren’t talking, I wouldn’t even be getting bad attitude info..I’d be getting no info! My avionics installer contacted them too...they just recommend checking the configuration settings and that a calibration conducted, which has been done (post-install).

SGOTI (Garmin rep in another forum on another thread) said to try waiting for the GPS to align properly before connecting the iPad to Bluetooth, so my plan this weekend is to try that. I’ll take the plane flying and see if that helps at all. If not, I’ll bring it back and run another calibration to see if it takes on the second attempt. If it doesn’t, then I guess I’ll turn it back over the Avi shop and hope they pull the box for warranty vice spending a bunch of time troubleshooting. It seems like a few people have received bad boxes (one guy on BT went through 4!).

In my mind, I can’t see how the AHRS would work fine when straight and level and roll in the proper direction when I roll the plane, but then begin to dump the nose 10 degrees while in that turn and while rolling wings level as I roll the plane wings level (AHRS rolls out too but holds the nose down until it rolls level). I’m not decelerating, there’s not appreciable (adverse) yaw. Just not sure why it would think I’m dumping the nose.
 
For reference, here’s a screenshot just as I get ready to roll back to wings level out of the turn.
 

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Banjo33 said:
Software version is found in Foreflight, of all places. The Foreflight website actually has a few screenshots about how to find it before asking for technical support.
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I meant the software version that's running on the GTX 345, not the ForeFlight version (though you should send that too). My 345 AHRS didn't work until GTX version 2.10.

If it doesn’t, then I guess I’ll turn it back over the Avi shop and hope they pull the box for warranty vice spending a bunch of time troubleshooting. It seems like a few people have received bad boxes (one guy on BT went through 4!).
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:hairraise: :hairraise: :hairraise: :hairraise:

In my mind, I can’t see how the AHRS would work fine when straight and level and roll in the proper direction when I roll the plane, but then begin to dump the nose 10 degrees while in that turn and while rolling wings level as I roll the plane wings level (AHRS rolls out too but holds the nose down until it rolls level). I’m not decelerating, there’s not appreciable (adverse) yaw. Just not sure why it would think I’m dumping the nose.
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I was thinking that it might have been misconfigured for an angled panel, a la Beechcraft or something like that. For example, if it was configured for a straight panel and you put it in a plane that has an angled radio stack, rolling left would also put it nose up, rolling right would put it back down. Yours seems to be the opposite, but I'm guessing you have a straight panel.
 
The Foreflight config page shows the 345 serial number, software version, etc. I’d post a snapshot of mine, but not comfortable with sharing my serial number, lol. Regardless, it shows I’m on version 2.10, so I’d be curious what issues you had as that may be the key to mine as well. Also, I’m assuming the update came from Garmin? Now I’m curious why my installer didn’t know about that...
 
GTX345 Pirep:

They finished the installation and everything works wonderfully. A friend dropped me off at the avionics shop field at 6AM. I had to look in the manual to see how to pair it with FF, but it was easy. I flew home with traffic and weather on both the 430W and FF.

My shoulder set on fire when bringing up my manual landing gear. Although that is a separate story it is related. After writing a hefty four figure check for the work, I am unable to fly this plane without a reasonably healthy guy with me to help me manage the gear. The 345 was the last step in finally customizing my plane and make it my dream machine. Now the blown out shoulder makes it a nightmare. I have admired the simplicity and reliability of a manual gear Mooney for 25 years and finally have one only to have my body deteriorate to a point of making the plane a no go for me.

Either the Orthopedist performs a miracle, or I start over fixing up a plane the way I want it.

End of crying you the river, but the avionics Pirep on the 345 is positive.
 
MBDiagMan said:
Either the Orthopedist performs a miracle, or I start over fixing up a plane the way I want it.
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Isn't it possible to convert a manual gear Mooney to electric?

I know that I've looked at the guts on mine (electric) and it sure looks like they just added a motor to where the Johnson bar used to be, plus the emergency extension mechanism.
 
After checking into it, I have learned that converting to electric gear is possible but not cost effective. I also thought it was just a matter of a motor in place of the lever but it is much more involved. It requires linkage mods, the addition of a beam to hold the actuator and electrics that are more involved than I thought. One MSC said $16K for the kit and 250 hours labor! Another said used parts and a few weeks, adding up to about $15K total.
 
MBDiagMan said:
After checking into it, I have learned that converting to electric gear is possible but not cost effective. I also thought it was just a matter of a motor in place of the lever but it is much more involved. It requires linkage mods, the addition of a beam to hold the actuator and electrics that are more involved than I thought. One MSC said $16K for the kit and 250 hours labor! Another said used parts and a few weeks, adding up to about $15K total.
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I know this means I've been around aviation too long, but...

$15K doesn't sound like too much for that work. I think it may still be cost effective over buying a whole new airplane, especially if you live in a sales tax state.

EDIT: If I'm reading correctly, in Texas, you'd owe 6.25% on the transaction.
 
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