Group projects = dumb

CJones

CJones

Final Approach
Joined
Mar 14, 2005
Messages
5,913
Location
Jawjuh
Display Name
Display name:
uHaveNoIdea
[rant on]

As some of you may know, I recently returned to school to complete my 4-year degree (I'll have ~8 years of school in my 4-year degree by the time I'm done :redface:). I'm currently double-majoring in MIS (Management Information Systems) and OSCM (Operations & Supply Chain Management). Both majors are fairly 'group-project' heavy. Before I get a lot of "Wait till you get into the real world, where you have to work on group projects everyday....", let me say that I HAVE and still DO work in the real-world and have managed teams on projects, etc., so I understand the need to get experience working within a 'team' scenario.

MY problem lies with how the group projects are graded. Sometimes you just get unlucky and end up with a group member (or two or five) that just aren't good at what they do. Sometimes they're just lazy and sometimes they're just stupid (I'm sorry, but contrary to the "Everyone is OK" movement in society, some people are just plain 'ol STUPID). In the real world, you can give the stupid or lazy people the job of counting paper clips while the rest of the team gets work done. In school, though, everyone has to work the same amount, and the groups are graded on 'equal participation by all group members', which is a crock. I brought this up with at least two instructors. I said "I have been in groups where some people just aren't as knowledgeable as others and are a hinderance to the group, so why should I spend MY time bringing THEM up to speed?" Their response was that "Everyone has to do this in the real-world, so everyone needs to be good at it." To which I replied "But I don't care if THEY are good at it. Hell, I'm competeing against them for jobs! I want them to be HORRIBLE at it!" I don't mind having a couple of 'slow' people on the team, but don't base part of MY grade on THEIR abilities. If you're going to grade an entire group on their end product, then let the group operate in a manner which provides the best product. Otherwise, let ME earn MY grade and let everyone else fend for themselves.

Sorry, I just got done with a group project this morning where I spent about 15 minutes in Q&A after the presentation trying to clean up the mess the other two guys made. I knew it was going to happen, but I fought the urge last night to say "Just go home and let me do this." Oh yeah... and I have 4 more group projects to finish up between now and April 7.

[rant off]
 
in dog racing you are only has fast as your slowest dog. that applies to lots of other things in life as well.
 
My professors only did that up until our capstone courses. The lower level courses, it's expected to get everyone on the same page because those are fundamentals. At the 498/499 level, we were expected to delegate the teams as needed to present the project in the best manner. Thus in a team of 5, 2 or 3 people spearheaded development, while the remaining members did less work, although it was still necessary for the project (technical documentation, walkthrough presentation, etc).
 
yea on my capstone group, there were two kinds of members. 1st was people who were using the capstone project as their individual project as well. those people did a lot of work. then there were slackers like me who were doing something different for individual work so had more of an advisory role in the big group project. there was also sort of a subset between people who had job offers and those who didnt, although most of us who had job offers ended up losing them anyway.
 
While not the 'capstone' course, these are mid 400-level courses. I still don't see it as my responsibility to teach them the stuff they should learn in class.

Sorry, I've just been bitter about group projects ever since ENGR 160 (Computer programming for engineers) many many moons ago, when the instructor split me and another person up because we would get done with the projects so quickly that he decided we needed to help the other people in the class out. Ummmm, NO. YOU are the teacher. I am not getting paid to teach. THEN we had a 'group exam' where two people worked together on the exam. Instead of letting me work with my 'good' partner, he put me with some girl that was completely clueless. I tried to lead her into the answers, but I got so fed up I finally just started ignoring her and writing the answers (C++ code) myself.

It's REALLY frustrating for me because I played sports so long (including two years of college basketball) that I understand the concept of how good teamwork can be very powerful. I just hate having my hands tied when I get stuck with someone with half-a-brain.
 
CJones said:
[rant on]

... Sometimes you just get unlucky and end up with a group member (or two or five) that just aren't good at what they do. Sometimes they're just lazy and sometimes they're just stupid (I'm sorry, but contrary to the "Everyone is OK" movement in society, some people are just plain 'ol STUPID). In the real world, you can give the stupid or lazy people the job of counting paper clips while the rest of the team gets work done. ...
Click to expand...

In the real world the stupid get promoted to be your boss to get them out of the way.

 

Attachments

  • 5103T5VSFPL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA240_SH20_OU01_.jpg
    5103T5VSFPL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA240_SH20_OU01_.jpg
    16.6 KB · Views: 127
Look at the upside. The new deal in this country will reward those who are best at socialism. Learn all you can.

CJones said:
While not the 'capstone' course, these are mid 400-level courses. I still don't see it as my responsibility to teach them the stuff they should learn in class.

Sorry, I've just been bitter about group projects ever since ENGR 160 (Computer programming for engineers) many many moons ago, when the instructor split me and another person up because we would get done with the projects so quickly that he decided we needed to help the other people in the class out. Ummmm, NO. YOU are the teacher. I am not getting paid to teach. THEN we had a 'group exam' where two people worked together on the exam. Instead of letting me work with my 'good' partner, he put me with some girl that was completely clueless. I tried to lead her into the answers, but I got so fed up I finally just started ignoring her and writing the answers (C++ code) myself.

It's REALLY frustrating for me because I played sports so long (including two years of college basketball) that I understand the concept of how good teamwork can be very powerful. I just hate having my hands tied when I get stuck with someone with half-a-brain.
Click to expand...
 
CJones said:
It's REALLY frustrating for me because I played sports so long (including two years of college basketball) that I understand the concept of how good teamwork can be very powerful. I just hate having my hands tied when I get stuck with someone with half-a-brain.
Click to expand...

Do you realize that you are now labeled & classified in the department and will have such pairings for the rest of your academic life?:eek:
 
Clark1961 said:
Do you realize that you are now labeled & classified in the department and will have such pairings for the rest of your academic life?:eek:
Click to expand...

Well, luckily that's only one more semester and I have enough Crown Royal in the cabinet to get me through that long. :D
 
I have had times where I've been expected to have someone else do more work (in a professional setting), and having that person do work actaully takes longer than me doing it all because I can do it in less time than it takes them to do the work and have me then fix the problems with it. In those cases, my "grade" (i.e. how the team leaders look at me) is dependent on those others working, because then I'm viewed as a bad leader for not giving them things to do.

Don't get me wrong, these situations suck and I certainly feel your pain and frustration. Unfortunately, they can happen in the real world just as much as in school. It's one of the frustrations of having a brain. Some people can deal with it better than others. I'm not very good at dealing with it.

The best solution is to get together with your friends at 6Y9 and... well, what happens at 6Y9 stays at 6Y9. ;)
 
tonycondon said:
is that even possible, ever?
Click to expand...

They only possible way to address such a query is to define a time period. The requirement is simple to illustrate: It is possible for almost anyone to have enough Crown for a few hours. If the time scale is more than a week then it is likely impossible to have enough Crown (depending entirely on the number of friends one has and to which income tax bracket one belongs).
 
Last edited:
Clark1961 said:
It is possible for almost anyone to have enough Crown for a few hours.
Click to expand...

Ahem.. I think that myth has been proven incorrect. See: "6Y9 Nightly Events: dated 5-Sept-2008." Unfortunately, those documents have been sealed so you'll have to wait until the 50-year wait period expires to view the full documentation. :D
 
I definitely understand Chris. I helped lead a group through a huge project in my aviation law class last year. Most of us did really well and were able to put our pieces together to create our project based on airline statistics. Each of our grades, like yours, was based off of the effort of the group. Well we ended up having one guy not put in as much effort as he promised which was shown in the presentation. He also had a speech problem which made it very hard to follow what he was saying. So, we got a failing grade. I was not happy, we spent a lot of time together researching that project. It took me a couple emails to convince the professor that the entire group should not be responsible for one person's false promises and his inability to speak clearly. Thankfully some reasoning got through to him and we were each were given grades for what we deserved.
 
Last edited:
CJones said:
Ahem.. I think that myth has been proven incorrect. See: "6Y9 Nightly Events: dated 5-Sept-2008." Unfortunately, those documents have been sealed so you'll have to wait until the 50-year wait period expires to view the full documentation. :D
Click to expand...

Careful examination of the phrasing will yield the simple fact that something may be possible if the conditions are carefully constructed. If one wants to feel good about having enough Crown then I suggest they limit the defining time period to something reasonable such as 10 minutes, e.g. we have enough Crown for the next 10 minutes. If one wishes to address longer time periods then I suggest limiting the participants to some reasonable number such as one or at most two people. Under those conditions it may be possible to stretch the time period to perhaps one hour or even one point five hours.

However, keep in mind that should actual circumstances exceed the stated conditions then sealed records may result.
 
I feel your pain, brother. "group" projects in school are always bogus exercises. Guaranteed you have a drifter who will absolutely exploit the one person in the group who wants the grade. Artificial situations create artificial solutions. Ohh, the agony. God am i glad I'm done with education.....
 
Tristar said:
So, we got a failing grade. I was not happy, we spent a lot of time together researching that project. It took me a couple emails to convince the professor that the entire group should not be responsible for one person's false promises and his inability to speak clearly. Thankfully some reasoning got through to him and we were each were given grades for what we deserved.
Click to expand...

I wonder if that "post-processing" (to argue your point for a better grade) might not be part of the point of these exercises, in some way? To teach us how to argue for what we feel is right, and not just take it without a fight...

Nice job, Tristan!

I hate the group projects, too--try doing it with one of the online universities / classes, and trying to find a time when each of you--in different time zones and jobs--can all get together to work on a project. That wasn't fun! :no:
 
One of my daughters was in a "technology" class in 9th grade where there was a group project that was graded as a group, not individually. Like you Chris, she got stuck with some real loser kids that did not do their work and ended up with a D.

It was enough to influence her GPA throughout High School and was the cause of her being the Salutorian instead of Validictorian.

Think I was just a smige ****ed???!:mad2:
 
TangoWhiskey said:
I hate the group projects, too--try doing it with one of the online universities / classes, and trying to find a time when each of you--in different time zones and jobs--can all get together to work on a project. That wasn't fun! :no:
Click to expand...

Time zones? I'm currently working on a project (at work) with people in the US, UK, and Germany (and sometimes Sweden and France). At one point there was some interest from Japan, but fortunately that went away.

Working with Japan is the worst - not just the huge time difference, but getting answers seems to be like pulling teeth.
 
tonycondon said:
for a scientific conclusion to be drawn, the results must be repeatable.
Click to expand...
Can I get in on the next set of experiments? I have research experience, drinking experience, and alot of time on my hands.
 
I think Adam, and I will have to do some empirical research on the proprotional mixing of Crown and Coke/Dr Pepper next week :-)
 
painless said:
One of my daughters was in a "technology" class in 9th grade where there was a group project that was graded as a group, not individually. Like you Chris, she got stuck with some real loser kids that did not do their work and ended up with a D.

It was enough to influence her GPA throughout High School and was the cause of her being the Salutorian instead of Validictorian.

Think I was just a smige ****ed???!:mad2:
Click to expand...

You should have been thankful for their effort to smooth out the bell curve. :crazy:

Just caught a George Carlin (last?) show on HBO, "It's Bad for Ya:"
"All children are special?" At what point do they stop being special? If there is no cut off it would mean that all adults are special. Sorta defies the definition of "special" doesn't it?
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
adam you bet, develop a test plan and procedures. i will come up with a release process. ted can do QA. we'll plan on preliminary testing at Gastons with final round at Sidnaw.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top