Greatest concern for GA ( X -post)

[AdamZ]

There has been a lot of talk in GA about the ADIZ and user fees now. If you had to pick your greatest concern for GA what would it be? Please also let us know where you live it might help qualify your response. Personally I think both stink but as an IR pilot I may have less of a hard time with the ADIZ than user fees. Although I have written to the FAA and protested the ADIZ. Note the poll is public.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

One way or some others, we pay to fly in USA airspace, no matter where. If the ADIZ BS passes and gathers momentum and regulates us out of tons of airspace, it will still mean paying even more to fly or not being able to fly widely at all regardless of any additional user fees.

I've been told the ranks of pilots in GA are already decreasing fast. The proportionately low numbers of pilots tallied on the ADIZ docket # 17005 to date shows that the vast majority of USA pilots that won't even type cheap lip service in an effort to stop the onerous ADIZ fiasco is very high and clearly shows that those pilots that even remotely give a hoot are very low in number.

 

[AdamZ]

Following up on your post Dave. I am awed that out of 400,000 members only 16,000 some pilots have contacted the FAA regarding the ADIZ. I am one of them.

 

[RotaryWingBob]

I dunno, Adam. Both pretty well suck

 

[Anthony]

I dunno, Adam. Both pretty well suck

That pretty much sums it up for me. Throw in Avgas prices and you pretty much have a royal flush.

 

[Pilawt]

The "greatest concern for GA" is the non-flying public's perception that GA is of no benefit to them. User fees, dumb regulations and all the rest are merely symptoms of this fundamental problem.

Until that is changed, no one but the tiny segment of the population that have pilot's licenses (an insignificant voting bloc by any calculation) will care a whit if huge blocks of airspace are sanitized of little airplanes, or if a Walgreen's is built where a runway used to be.

The GA industry did a hideous job of educating the public of the value of GA in the salad days of the '60s and '70s when airplanes were rolling off the line by the thousands (remember 1966, when Cessna built 3,001 units of just one model, the 150??). They're not doing any better now. The manufacturers are trying to sell airplanes, sure, but only AOPA and EAA are making any significant effort to win friends for personal GA among the non-flying public. We owe them our support, and we owe it to ourselves and our communities to do what we can to introduce the non-flying segment to the benefits of GA.

-- Pilawt

 

[SkyHog]

IMHO - the greatest concern to GA is user fees. While the ADIZ sucks and is a horrible failure, people in other parts of the country are not personally affected. This is not a NIMBY comment, rather, if the ADIZ sticks to the DC area, only those in the DC area are affected, while user fees hurt everyone.

I still think that if the FAA implements user fees, we should form some sort of GA ATC that works only for us, and denies service to the big birds. Watch ATC scramble for cover when there is NO GA traffic on their scope at all.

 

[RotaryWingBob]

IMHO - the greatest concern to GA is user fees. While the ADIZ sucks and is a horrible failure, people in other parts of the country are not personally affected. This is not a NIMBY comment, rather, if the ADIZ sticks to the DC area, only those in the DC area are affected, while user fees hurt everyone.

I still think that if the FAA implements user fees, we should form some sort of GA ATC that works only for us, and denies service to the big birds. Watch ATC scramble for cover when there is NO GA traffic on their scope at all.

Well, I can't say I disagree with that, Nick... But it ain't gonna happen

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

IMHO - the greatest concern to GA is user fees. While the ADIZ sucks and is a horrible failure, people in other parts of the country are not personally affected. This is not a NIMBY comment, rather, if the ADIZ sticks to the DC area, only those in the DC area are affected, while user fees hurt everyone.

I still think that if the FAA implements user fees, we should form some sort of GA ATC that works only for us, and denies service to the big birds. Watch ATC scramble for cover when there is NO GA traffic on their scope at all.

A perpetuated ADIZ in DC actually will hurt all aviation eventually, not just that region.

 

[wsuffa]

Well, with the number of TFRs and ADIZ areas that are popping up, you WILL end up talking with ATC and have to pay a fee.

I've heard rumblings through EAA that EVERY airshow next year, regardless of how small, will be issued a full-blown TFR as part of the FAA's issuance of authority to conduct an airshow.

It's probably time to reign in the agency.

 

[Shipoke]

Well Aadm you know where i live and both will suck big time.The ADIZ wont stay just around Wash. and the Fees will effect me also cuase i live in the TRSA,cant even take of with out talking to ATC. So i'll just say i dont want either . Dave G
Harrisburg Pa. (KCXY)

 

[wesleyj]

All of your concerns for GA have merit, however my concern is even greater.

We as an industry are failing in many areas, but the greatest is our inabilty to attract new people and keep them. Sure we have the be a pilot program, and there have been lots of new starts, but they dont stay. the industry is dumping millions down the same old rat holes to promote GA, but it makes no sense to attract new starts by advertising in trade rags, people that read and follow those already have at least a passing interest in aviation, until we come up with a program to present GA to the non-flying public in a forum and manner that will attract them to us, we will continue to lose ground, and GA will become the playground of the rich and famous that most people already think that it is.

 

[Richard]

The "greatest concern for GA" is the non-flying public's perception that GA is of no benefit to them. User fees, dumb regulations and all the rest are merely symptoms of this fundamental problem.

Until that is changed, no one but the tiny segment of the population that have pilot's licenses (an insignificant voting bloc by any calculation) will care a whit if huge blocks of airspace are sanitized of little airplanes, or if a Walgreen's is built where a runway used to be.

The GA industry did a hideous job of educating the public of the value of GA in the salad days of the '60s and '70s when airplanes were rolling off the line by the thousands (remember 1966, when Cessna built 3,001 units of just one model, the 150??). They're not doing any better now. The manufacturers are trying to sell airplanes, sure, but only AOPA and EAA are making any significant effort to win friends for personal GA among the non-flying public. We owe them our support, and we owe it to ourselves and our communities to do what we can to introduce the non-flying segment to the benefits of GA.

-- Pilawt

That has bugged me for quite awhile. Pepsi, GM, Ford, all the big brand names, even those who dominate their markets, advertise. McDonalds has such a huge lead on their competition that their burger has been used as a currency exchange indicator. Yet they spend millions in advertising.

The GA mfgs advertise alright, but to who......those who already fly. Can you imagine if the general public started thinking, "Hey, I gotta get me one of those!", in response to a (insert brand here) tv commercial they just saw?

 

[SkyHog]

That has bugged me for quite awhile. Pepsi, GM, Ford, all the big brand names, even those who dominate their markets, advertise. McDonalds has such a huge lead on their competition that their burger has been used as a currency exchange indicator. Yet they spend millions in advertising.

The GA mfgs advertise alright, but to who......those who already fly. Can you imagine if the general public started thinking, "Hey, I gotta get me one of those!", in response to a (insert brand here) tv commercial they just saw?

Case in point - the local FBO had a Open House a few weeks ago, and advertised all over the radio here. They actually had a pretty decent turnout, lotsa people forking over money for rides and stuff.

Thats what AOPA needs to do on TV. Stop advertising so much on Discovery Military, start advertising on NBC, CBS, etc.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

All of your concerns for GA have merit, however my concern is even greater.

We as an industry are failing in many areas, but the greatest is our inabilty to attract new people and keep them. Sure we have the be a pilot program, and there have been lots of new starts, but they dont stay. the industry is dumping millions down the same old rat holes to promote GA, but it makes no sense to attract new starts by advertising in trade rags, people that read and follow those already have at least a passing interest in aviation, until we come up with a program to present GA to the non-flying public in a forum and manner that will attract them to us, we will continue to lose ground, and GA will become the playground of the rich and famous that most people already think that it is.

"Stop dreaming and start flying" has been around quite a few years and does attract people off regular TV.

The vast majority don't become pilots or stay pilots because flying takes just a little more skill, a little more judgement, a little more money and is a little more hassle than the average Joe or Josephina can handle and the GA industry can do little about that.

 

[Pilawt]

The vast majority don't become pilots or stay pilots because flying takes just a little more skill, a little more judgement, a little more money and is a little more hassle than the average Joe or Josephina can handle and the GA industry can do little about that.

True. Pilots will always be a small minority of the population. But GA benefits even those who do not fly, who will never fly ... and that's the point we need to get across in order for GA to survive.

-- Pilawt

 

[wesleyj]

At the 1973 Piper Dealer meeting, we were divided up into groups, and told to come up with programs that piper could undertake as a manufacturer to assist the dealers, in selling more airplanes and in attracting more people to GA,

i stood up and told them that they needed to dump the Madison Avenue Ad Agencies, stop advertising in flying, private pilot and the other industry rags and start advertising in National Geographic, Playboy, Sports Illustrated and other media, not normally aimed at the aviation market,

When they started the discovery program in the mid 70s, i told them the same thing, and when they started the BE a Pilot, i said the same thing, i guess it requires too much work because everybody still dumps all of their ad money into the industry rags.

the best way that GA can be improved, is to assist the local people in reaching, attracting and keeping interest in GA. if they dont, i am afraid that the end is not really that far off.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Well, the Washington Post carried a nice article on how the ADIZ is hurting GA. It's on ANN also.
http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?ContentBlockID=e5aae089-cad3-4b64-87c

Dave

 

[Everskyward]

i stood up and told them that they needed to dump the Madison Avenue Ad Agencies, stop advertising in flying, private pilot and the other industry rags and start advertising in National Geographic, Playboy, Sports Illustrated and other media, not normally aimed at the aviation market

While I agree that this might create more starts, I think that learning to fly an airplane requires a significant commitment of time and effort, in addition to money, which many folks aren't willing or able to give. If it was only the financial aspect I think there would be a lot more pilots. But would you want this.

On another note, I've worked in various aspects of GA for a long time (pretty much all of my jobs have been GA related) and I've never seen or heard that much hostility towards it. Many people are uninformed and some are indifferent, but a significant number of people have told me that they think being a pilot would be a cool thing, or relate stories about one of their family members being interested in flying. Or maybe they're just humoring me.

 

[Anthony]

While I agree that this might create more starts, I think that learning to fly an airplane requires a significant commitment of time and effort, in addition to money, which many folks aren't willing or able to give. If it was only the financial aspect I think there would be a lot more pilots.

I think that the media's perspective of small planes as very dangerous has a lot to do with it in addition to the cost. Non-flying spouses often deter their mates from persuing this "dangerouse" activity, citing the concern for their children, etc.

The financial aspect is very real as it seems many people today want conspicous signs of wealth, expensive car, big house. You never see the airplane. Its at some airport, not visible to your friends, family and neighbors. After a minute or two of talking flying, the average person is bored. They'd rather talk about the new BMW coming out.

 

[SJP]

I think that the media's perspective of small planes as very dangerous has a lot to do with it in addition to the cost. Non-flying spouses often deter their mates from persuing this "dangerouse" activity, citing the concern for their children, etc.

The financial aspect is very real as it seems many people today want conspicous signs of wealth, expensive car, big house. You never see the airplane. Its at some airport, not visible to your friends, family and neighbors. After a minute or two of talking flying, the average person is bored. They'd rather talk about the new BMW coming out.

I hate to say it, but the biggest threat to GA right now is cost.

I sat down with my financial guy recently. Assuming I do 24 hours flying a year...twice a month, and including a hour with an instructor once a quarter, I spend the best part of $3000 just on the flying bit. Some would also consider this to be the bare minimum to stay current. It's also barely enough to even go anywhere other than round the pattern for 40 minutes

$250 a month is a fair chunk of change for the average person, then add in $4000-6000 to actually get the private ticket to begin with, and it's not hard to see why GA is struggling to find new recruits ! Maybe the Sport Pilot class will help here.

I'm struggling right now to justify spending that sort of money each month, and we make considerably more than the average household income.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

I find it difficult to chose one of these over the other. Each is significant. If one can afford to fly, the ADIZ issue become paramont. With fuel, insurance, parts and other cost issues constantly changing (user fees on the horizon), one will may have to truly be rich to fly in the future. That sure doesn't jibe with the 'highway in the sky' we're all trying to get to.

Dave

 

[grattonja]

I couldn't vote up/down on either of these over the other. As an IR pilot, I can make the ADIZ virtually disappear. Not the FRZ though, and the ADIZ is killing VFR flight around DC. Nor am I foolish enough to think that some government yahoo won't think about limiting IR traffic as well.

Anyone who thinks this will be the only permanent ADIZ if it becomes that is deluded. Ask the guys who fly around Chicago what they think about that. They know their forum there. Sorry Nick, I can't agree with you. All you need in one AZ legislator to get het up about this and you could easily have such a limit coming to a theatre near you. Less likely in the central west I agree, but far from impossible.

By the same token, although users fees will not ground me, they will ground many people, particularly in the grassroots of aviation. Folks who are barely keeping their own plane in the air. Folks who are the true heart of GA. And they will affect flight time for any of us with a flying budget.

Both of these things have the potential to put a stranglehold on GA.

Jim G

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

True. Pilots will always be a small minority of the population. But GA benefits even those who do not fly, who will never fly ... and that's the point we need to get across in order for GA to survive.

-- Pilawt

Quite true.

Part of the requisite PR diplomacy to do so requires astute navigation through the publics' percieved dangers of GA, and then on through the limbic quagmire of subliminal and primal jealousy, envy, and other insecurities of those that won't be PICs (but would wish they had what it takes to do so), and then on through to the land buyers encroaching on our airports for any and all obtainable square footage of turf at absolute minimal cost upon which the mass-breeders would trod and homestead. I've no doubt missed a few things in the array of hurdles.

The established programs of Young Eagles, Be a Pilot, Pilot Mentor along with personal joy-rides and general hob-knobbing with the public that most of us pilots have always done to one degree or another gleens the rare few from the public and into our declining fold. What else additional could be done ?

 

[judypilot]

I'm inclined to agree with Pilawt, also with Steve and Everskyward.

I also think that those who chose to vote in the poll will be split by geography. Living way out here in the West, the ADIZ does not concern me greatly, but user fees sure do. But I'll bet if I lived back East, I'd feel a lot different.

So I'm with Pilawt on the true "greatest threat".

Judy

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

I'm inclined to agree with Pilawt, also with Steve and Everskyward.

I also think that those who chose to vote in the poll will be split by geography. Living way out here in the West, the ADIZ does not concern me greatly, but user fees sure do. But I'll bet if I lived back East, I'd feel a lot different.

So I'm with Pilawt on the true "greatest threat".

Judy

Out of sight, out of mind ?

 

[CowboyPilot]

The "greatest concern for GA" is the non-flying public's perception that GA is of no benefit to them. User fees, dumb regulations and all the rest are merely symptoms of this fundamental problem.

Until that is changed, no one but the tiny segment of the population that have pilot's licenses (an insignificant voting bloc by any calculation) will care a whit if huge blocks of airspace are sanitized of little airplanes, or if a Walgreen's is built where a runway used to be.

The GA industry did a hideous job of educating the public of the value of GA in the salad days of the '60s and '70s when airplanes were rolling off the line by the thousands (remember 1966, when Cessna built 3,001 units of just one model, the 150??). They're not doing any better now. The manufacturers are trying to sell airplanes, sure, but only AOPA and EAA are making any significant effort to win friends for personal GA among the non-flying public. We owe them our support, and we owe it to ourselves and our communities to do what we can to introduce the non-flying segment to the benefits of GA.

-- Pilawt

Excellent post and your observations are dead-on the money.

-JD

 

[rfbdorf]

They're both symptoms of the same disease. The general public sees GA as a rich man's hobby, and a way to live dangerously. We're all Travoltas and Denvers. Why should they pay to make it easier for us to fly? Why should they pay to make it easier for us to create hazards over cities, when we might at any time fall out of the sky and kill thousands?
Although I'm in the NW and far from the ADIZ, I voted for the ADIZ issue. I agree wholeheartedly that user fees would be a bad thing - for a number of reasons, not limited to monetary. But I see the ADIZ as just the beginning of severe restrictions: first over any large city, then the smaller cities, then over any school, then the towns, then the houses, ...
- Richard

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

They're both symptoms of the same disease. The general public sees GA as a rich man's hobby, and a way to live dangerously. We're all Travoltas and Denvers. Why should they pay to make it easier for us to fly? Why should they pay to make it easier for us to create hazards over cities, when we might at any time fall out of the sky and kill thousands?
Although I'm in the NW and far from the ADIZ, I voted for the ADIZ issue. I agree wholeheartedly that user fees would be a bad thing - for a number of reasons, not limited to monetary. But I see the ADIZ as just the beginning of severe restrictions: first over any large city, then the smaller cities, then over any school, then the towns, then the houses, ...
- Richard

The DC ADIZ... IS a user fee, is it not ?

 

[TDKendall]

How about educating the public about how GA has come to the rescue during natural disasters? This past few months with the 3 major hurricanes that hit the US is a perfect example.

Who came in with the needed supplies while the government was still trying to figure out which way to go? GA pilots and their airplanes.

Who works with the CAP and Coast Guard when there are search and rescue missions to be flown? Quite often it's GA pilots and their airplanes.

Who primarily gets the call for charter work for Life Flight, Angel Flight and other medical emergency missions? GA pilots and their airplanes.

This is the type of local advertising we plan on doing to generate interest in GA and its benefit to the American way of life. If all FBO's and GA organizations did this at the grass roots/local community level, the public would have a better understanding and acceptance of the small airplanes that are flying overhead every day.

my 2¢ worth of ideas and thoughts.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

How about educating the public about how GA has come to the rescue during natural disasters? This past few months with the 3 major hurricanes that hit the US is a perfect example.

Who came in with the needed supplies while the government was still trying to figure out which way to go? GA pilots and their airplanes.

Who works with the CAP and Coast Guard when there are search and rescue missions to be flown? Quite often it's GA pilots and their airplanes.

Who primarily gets the call for charter work for Life Flight, Angel Flight and other medical emergency missions? GA pilots and their airplanes.

This is the type of local advertising we plan on doing to generate interest in GA and its benefit to the American way of life. If all FBO's and GA organizations did this at the grass roots/local community level, the public would have a better understanding and acceptance of the small airplanes that are flying overhead every day.

my 2¢ worth of ideas and thoughts.

You bet !
AOPA & EAA should have a few ads plastered on TV or at least in print pushing GA pilots before they all forget what happened.

 

[Bill]

I hate to say it, but the biggest threat to GA right now is cost. *snip*

I'm struggling right now to justify spending that sort of money each month, and we make considerably more than the average household income.

I agree, sometimes I look at the cost and think I must be nuts. I've been flying 2.5 yrs and about 230hrs. At an average of $100/hr, that is $23k just in airplane rentals. Add in dual, charts, plates, documents, headsets, DPE fees, etc., and I'd bet it's more like $30k. In 30 months, or about $1k/mo on average.

I could live in a much nicer house, or drive a fine luxury automobile, cruise the lake in a nice boat, etc. I think those that have the extra cash are more interested in these types of things vs flying planes.

Yet even as expensive as this is, I'll have to spend even more to step up to the owners plate.

Glad I don't think about the dollar$ too often

 

[jesse]

Cost.

Try not to think about the money. It'll depress you...

...Instead think about where you have flown. Think about those flights where you introduced someone to flying and how excited they were. Think about those days that you fly above the clouds...and think about all of the great pilots across the country that you have met.

 

[Dart]

I think those that have the extra cash are more interested in these types of things vs flying planes.

That is the crux of the matter. It is not just the cost but the "bang per buck" factor.

Flying is a lot of bucks for what amounts to a few hours of fun, mostly for the pilot. Don't get me wrong, I thought it was (is) worth it for me. However, when it came time to by another big toy (the hurricanes of 2004 ate my sailboat) I bought another, bigger, boat.

The biggest problem I see for flying is that it has little opportunity for family time. The flying may get you close to fun places, but until Disney builds airstrips, airports just aren't family fun centers. For the cost of an IFR C172 you can purchase a cruiser (sail or power) capable of many days of cruising before you have to stop for provisions. It may well be air conditioned and will certainly include sleeping quarters, a galley and head. You can't get a cabin class aircraft with those amenities until you are deep in 7 figure territory.

You take a boat to an island or popular anchorage an dump the kids, a major treat for mom. There are other boats to visit or you can just hole up below decks and read. The kids can hop on skies, take the dinghy to shore, snorkel, scuba, sail, fish... Or stay on the boat and listen to their music, watch a video, play card or board games....The whole family and the kids friends (if you want quality time with your kids that means they get to show off to their friends) can come along and have something they like without leaving the vessel area.

In other words, the end destination is also fun. Not just another airport where you rent a car to drive to somewhere you could have driven to.

There are usually other kids around, and if not then tell them to "go explore the island and be back when you smell the burgers cooking" works good. For the teens there are other teens, usually tan and in skimpy bikinis (girls) or showing off washboard abs above board shorts (boys and girls).

I use boating because it costs about the same and has many of the same hurdles and downsides (high aquisition costs, speciaty maintenace needs, 'fun' is weather dependant, need marinas like planes need airports). But the real issue is "bang for buck" and family friendliness. Vacation homes by the shore or in the mountains, exotic vacationing or RVing are other examples of expensive but more group or family-friendly competitors for the discretionary dollar.

My point is that flying does not offer FAMILIES, particularly young families much more than a cool way to "get there". After "Look how little the houses are!" there isn't much there for a family. The flying in itself is short and not that much fun for other than the pilot and maybe a really interested right seater.

If only major theme parks would build airstrips, or all national parks over "X" acres be required to have an airstrip, or if all municipal airports had play areas for the kids (and a bar for the non-PIC parent) there might be hope. But for now, flying is a difficult, expensive sport that is suitable mainly for very driven, trained, and highly disciplined individualists.

So add to the cost more and more and more restrictive regulation with mandatory this and thats and you get... declining interest from all but a very dedicated few.

Glad I don't think about the dollar$ too often

I here ya! My wife is supportive and keeps saying "Go fly". Well, without my own plane it isn't so easy to just "go fly". And even though she doesn't mind, I have a hard time justifying spending enough money on a burger run for me for the same cost to take her, our daughter in law, and our two sons and me to dinner at Outback and a movie.

 

[corjulo]

Fuel Prices are the biggest threat

 

[astanley]

I think the total cost of ownership (of the license) is what kills it.

I look at all of the hobbies I've been involved with: beer brewing, barbecue, cycling, motorcycling, deep sea fishing, airplanes, helicopters, and "the outdoors".

Boating, motorcycling, and aviation attract pretty much a similar crowd: reasonably successful people who enjoy the interface of machines with the earth.

Of all of these, motorcycling has the lowest TCO - cheap machines, easy license, inexpensive gasoline, good fuel mileage. Think about it - for $12k you can be in full protective gear, a brand new motorcycle, and have license, insurance, and a few tanks of gas. $20k puts you near the top, with $30k giving you a LOT of cash to burn.

Boating has a similar TCO to aviation, but there is a different opportunity cost - in that, even when the slop rolls in, I can go out on most boats. IFR boating is a heck of a lot more straight forward than IFR flying. Boats are far more "family friendly" at a given cost point - one can spend about $75k and have a boat that has offshore capabilities, near shore cruising, and comfortable seating for 6+, a good deal of the latest gear and low time on the motors. $120k and you are in a cruising capable boat with overnight capabilities, seating for 8+ and sleeping room for 4+.

Aviation is expensive, but the biggest part is the inability to easily enter the market. To own a family friendly transportation plane, for the average american family, we're talking about an initial investment of over $100k (Plane, training, insurance). 182 and above class for most families of 4. 172 class aircraft work, but are challenged as a 4 pax weekend plane.

Aviation has a high cost to enter and an even higher cost to maintain. Boats are similarly expensive, but I can own a far more "capable" craft for similar dollars, and share my enjoyment with that many more people.

Cheers,

-Andrew