GPS Database - Timing of Update

MtPJimB

MtPJimB

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RVFlyboy
Current cycle has effective dates of 7/21/16 - 8/18/16. Next cycle has effective dates of 8/18/16 - 9/15/16. For a flight on 8/18 would it be legal to fly IFR with the current cycle database instead of the next cycle? We are not in a position to be able to update the card between now and 8/18 with the new cycle. Thanks.
 
When you fire the box up and it gives you exp date, it's a pumpkin on midnight of that date.
 
On a G1000, you can load the "next" cycle up to a week early, into the standby database. When the witching hour passes, the system will make it active for you. I suspect other Garmin GPSs are similar.

That reminds me, I gotta update the database tomorrow.
 
Midnight Zulu is when ours expire...when on the 18th are you planning on flying?

The other question would be, what does your AFM Supplement allow for operations with an expired database?
 
Just to be clear - is midnight Zulu the last minute of 8/18 or the first minute of 8/18? Maybe easier translating into local time -EDT, which is -4.00. So does the current database expire at 8pm on 8/18 or 8pm on 8/17?
 
MtPJimB said:
Just to be clear - is midnight Zulu the last minute of 8/18 or the first minute of 8/18? Maybe easier translating into local time -EDT, which is -4.00. So does the current database expire at 8pm on 8/18 or 8pm on 8/17?
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8pm EDT on the 18th
 
Some hair splitting going on. Are we 'hard' or 'soft' IFR? Check the Notams.
 
IIRC, there was a warning about the next cycle date. It is supposedly reported incorrectly, by one day.
Too lazy to look it up now (especially since I don't care because I won't be flying IFR anywhere in the next month). Somebody please do it for me. :)
 
MauleSkinner said:
The other question would be, what does your AFM Supplement allow for operations with an expired database?
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This is probably the best answer. The supplement should tell you what is legal as far as IFR flight and databases. The supplement for at least one GPS model explicitly addresses the case where the database cycle changing mid-flight.
 
My MEL lets me fly up to 10 days on an expired database as long as I cross check the lat/longs of all the points.
 
I have a year old gps waas card for a 530W.....anyone updating data and want to swap out a 1 month old card? I'd like to update, but month old data is fine with me.

send me a PM....:yes:
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
I have a year old gps waas card for a 530W.....anyone updating data and want to swap out a 1 month old card? I'd like to update, but month old data is fine with me.

send me a PM....:yes:
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Why do you care?

If it's out of date, it's out of date. A year old isn't much worse than a month old. The main thing that changes is frequencies. Either way, it's not legal to use IFR without a lot of annoying work.

FWIW, you're attempting to steal data, and it's not a good idea to solicit it on a public board. If you want to update, the legal thing to do is buy an update from Jepp.
 
MAKG1 said:
Why do you care?

If it's out of date, it's out of date. A year old isn't much worse than a month old. The main thing that changes is frequencies. Either way, it's not legal to use IFR without a lot of annoying work.

FWIW, you're attempting to steal data, and it's not a good idea to solicit it on a public board. If you want to update, the legal thing to do is buy an update from Jepp.
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How is it stealing? Oh, because it's not. If I know I'm not flying for the next two months, why should my data that I paid for go to waste? It's not like I'm making a copy of the data and giving it to him.
 
EdFred said:
How is it stealing? Oh, because it's not. If I know I'm not flying for the next two months, why should my data that I paid for go to waste? It's not like I'm making a copy of the data and giving it to him.
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I know no one reads EULAs, but it would be a REALLY REALLY REALLY good idea to read it before you make legal advice like that.

Whether you use it or not, the EULA prohibits transfer.

Whether you (or I) agree with the law doesn't have any bearing on its meaning.
 
I'm not the end user at that point.
;)

Yes, I realize you are scared of pretty much everything, some of us aren't.
 
EdFred said:
I'm not the end user at that point.
;)

Yes, I realize you are scared of pretty much everything, some of us aren't.
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Don't give legal advice if you don't know what the hell you are talking about. You can try to turn it into a genital comparison, but no one cares how big your schlong is.
 
The AIRAC cycle in the US and Canada ends on the date in question at 9:00 Z. At 9:01 Z on the same day, the new cycle is in effect. August 18, 9:00 the 1608 version of the database expires and the 1609 version is effective.
 
MAKG1 said:
If it's out of date, it's out of date. A year old isn't much worse than a month old. The main thing that changes is frequencies. Either way, it's not legal to use IFR without a lot of annoying work.
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It is really not that difficult to use an out of date database. If one has current approach or procedure charts, there is a date on the chart that it was last published and in some instances a procedure amendment date that indicates when the last change that affects the database was made. As long as the date of the last change or procedure amendment date is prior to the expiration date of the approach or procedure, it may be used. To do this, you need current charts as provided by many of the EFB subscriptions or current paper charts. VOR's are easy to determine if they have moved or not by verifying the latitude-longitude in the database. Most VOR's have not moved since they were installed in the 1960's. But since airways are defined by VOR radials and intersections are defined by cross radials or DME distances, you don't need to have a current database to use the VOR.

The AFMS is the official source that determines if an expired database can be used or not, but since about Aug of 2010, the AIM has stated in table 1−1−6 note 3 regarding the requirement for a current database for approaches:

3 Requires current database or verification that the procedure has not been amended since the expiration of the database.
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Prior to August of 2010, this note read as:

3 Requires current database.
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Although I maintain a regular subscription, I have used an out of date database for approaches for many years using GNS430W/530W systems, and if it takes you more than 30 seconds to determine if the approach in the expired database is current or not, you are spending too much time. Reasons pop up all the time where the database is down level, usually only one level. It is an hour and a half round trip back to the house/hangar if I forget to bring the latest database or it may switch over while I am on a trip. I don't get up early enough for it to expire in flight, but I have ferried aircraft with way out of date databases for a new buyer and have yet to find an approach that I could not legally fly. Remember, those VOR and ILS procedures in the database are there only for situational awareness and are totally not required to fly the approach by entering the frequencies and courses on the nav radios the old fashioned way.
 
John Collins said:
It is really not that difficult to use an out of date database. If one has current approach or procedure charts, there is a date on the chart that it was last published and in some instances a procedure amendment date that indicates when the last change that affects the database was made. As long as the date of the last change or procedure amendment date is prior to the expiration date of the approach or procedure, it may be used. To do this, you need current charts as provided by many of the EFB subscriptions or current paper charts. VOR's are easy to determine if they have moved or not by verifying the latitude-longitude in the database. Most VOR's have not moved since they were installed in the 1960's. But since airways are defined by VOR radials and intersections are defined by cross radials or DME distances, you don't need to have a current database to use the VOR.
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True enough about IAPs, but the airways are now a moving target under the MOS program. I wouldn't load an airway with an expired database.
 
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John Collins said:
It is really not that difficult to use an out of date database. If one has current approach or procedure charts, there is a date on the chart that it was last published and in some instances a procedure amendment date that indicates when the last change that affects the database was made. As long as the date of the last change or procedure amendment date is prior to the expiration date of the approach or procedure, it may be used. To do this, you need current charts as provided by many of the EFB subscriptions or current paper charts. VOR's are easy to determine if they have moved or not by verifying the latitude-longitude in the database. Most VOR's have not moved since they were installed in the 1960's. But since airways are defined by VOR radials and intersections are defined by cross radials or DME distances, you don't need to have a current database to use the VOR.

The AFMS is the official source that determines if an expired database can be used or not, but since about Aug of 2010, the AIM has stated in table 1−1−6 note 3 regarding the requirement for a current database for approaches:



Prior to August of 2010, this note read as:



Although I maintain a regular subscription, I have used an out of date database for approaches for many years using GNS430W/530W systems, and if it takes you more than 30 seconds to determine if the approach in the expired database is current or not, you are spending too much time. Reasons pop up all the time where the database is down level, usually only one level. It is an hour and a half round trip back to the house/hangar if I forget to bring the latest database or it may switch over while I am on a trip. I don't get up early enough for it to expire in flight, but I have ferried aircraft with way out of date databases for a new buyer and have yet to find an approach that I could not legally fly. Remember, those VOR and ILS procedures in the database are there only for situational awareness and are totally not required to fly the approach by entering the frequencies and courses on the nav radios the old fashioned way.
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Can you post an excerpt from your AFMS allowing approaches with an expired database? I think having a concrete example of that would help the discussion.
 
MAKG1 said:
Don't give legal advice if you don't know what the hell you are talking about. You can try to turn it into a genital comparison, but no one cares how big your schlong is.
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Vivaldi?
 
MauleSkinner said:
Can you post an excerpt from your AFMS allowing approaches with an expired database? I think having a concrete example of that would help the discussion.
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This is the wording for the Garmin GN530W Software version 3.3 AFMS for the database limitations. It has been revised with later software versions, but is an example of an AFMS wording that permits the database to be used for approaches if the approach data within the expired database is verified to be still current. Many systems from Apollo and WAAS Garmin WAAS systems used this or similar wording. In the process of preparing wording for earlier non WAAS GPS systems, I have used similar wording in AFMS that I have submitted to the FAA for field approval. The term of art approach data refers to the data within the database that describes the approach to the GPS avionics. The approach data is not the database, it is an individual entry in the database.

2.3 Navigation Database

The 500W Series unit database card must be installed. (IAW the TSO deviations granted to Garmin for the 500W unit, navigation database cards may not be marked with the part number. The software automatically precludes invalid databases for use by the 500W)
a) IFR enroute and terminal navigation is prohibited unless the pilot verifies the currency of the database or verifies each selected waypoint for accuracy by reference to current approved data.
b) GPS instrument approaches using the 500W Series units are prohibited, unless the 500W Series unit’s approach data is verified by the pilot or crew to be current. Instrument approaches must be accomplished in accordance with an approved instrument approach procedure that is loaded from the 500W Series unit database.
c) Installations with dual 400W/500W Series units will only crossfill between units when they contain the same database cycle. Updating of each database must be accomplished on the ground prior to flight.
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aterpster said:
True enough about IAPs, but the airways are now a moving target under the MOS program. I wouldn't load an airway with an expired database.
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Neither would I, but I would fly airways from the current chart using my VOR receiver. My GNS530W does not support airways anyway.
 
John Collins said:
Neither would I, but I would fly airways from the current chart using my VOR receiver. My GNS530W does not support airways anyway.
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True, but 400/500 series GPSs do support the locations of VORs and intersections that define the airways. They aren't likely to move (especially the VORs), but there is no simple "last revision date" you can check to be sure of that. Flying airways on a GNS530W means entering the endpoints and all of the bends in that particular airway. 600/700 series DO support airways. Most people with GPSs seem to also have dual NAV/COMMs, but with WAAS, it is not required to have any of that.

Note that it is not rare for terrestrial approaches to require GPS by NOTAM because a relevant navaid that doesn't define the final approach course is OTS. I've been seeing a lot of that lately.
 
John Collins said:
This is the wording for the Garmin GN530W Software version 3.3 AFMS for the database limitations. It has been revised with later software versions, but is an example of an AFMS wording that permits the database to be used for approaches if the approach data within the expired database is verified to be still current. Many systems from Apollo and WAAS Garmin WAAS systems used this or similar wording. In the process of preparing wording for earlier non WAAS GPS systems, I have used similar wording in AFMS that I have submitted to the FAA for field approval. The term of art approach data refers to the data within the database that describes the approach to the GPS avionics. The approach data is not the database, it is an individual entry in the database.
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Cool...thanks!
 
Gucci Pilot said:
Surprisingly, in our airplane we do it to verify the flight plan everytime.
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That's sort of a pain in the ass to do when I don't have internet service in my airplane to check against the NFDC database.
 
EdFred said:
That's sort of a pain in the ass to do when I don't have internet service in my airplane to check against the NFDC database.
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The program we use to flight plan has the lat/long below the waypoint name. I personally think it is stupid that we check it that way but it is required.
 
Gucci Pilot said:
The program we use to flight plan has the lat/long below the waypoint name. I personally think it is stupid that we check it that way but it is required.
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Yes, but how do I verify that against the NFDC database? In my 430W it does give me DERRE as a lat/long, but the lat/long for DERRE isn't listed on an approach plate, or L/H-chart, or anywhere else but the NFDC. Verifying it's in the GPS database is one thing (easy to do), verifying that it hasn't changed since the last cycle is another.
 
The VOR's are easy to verify, they are shown on the High and Low IFR Enroute charts with the latitude and longitude in the Name-frequency box. They use the same latitude/longitude format as the default used in most GPS/FMS if you look at the VOR. Most airways don't need to have waypoints for enroute operational navigation, but if they are needed there are obvious ways of using the VOR/DME and using a current chart. Procedures are much easier, it is just a date comparison. I don't use airways very much anyway, I tend to use two to four key VOR's along an essentially direct route, so it only involves checking two to four VOR's. You can make this as hard as you want or as easy as you need.
 
Hmmmm.....don't any of you guys verify the location of your aircraft....on the GPS screen before take-off....while taxiing?

That's close enough for me...so long as I'm shown on the taxiway....then down the center line of the runway....I'm good.
 
EdFred said:
Yes, but how do I verify that against the NFDC database? In my 430W it does give me DERRE as a lat/long, but the lat/long for DERRE isn't listed on an approach plate, or L/H-chart, or anywhere else but the NFDC. Verifying it's in the GPS database is one thing (easy to do), verifying that it hasn't changed since the last cycle is another.
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Maybe checking the bearing and distance from RETOR or HEBEL?
 
Gucci Pilot said:
Maybe checking the bearing and distance from RETOR or HEBEL?
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And I know RETOR and HEBEL haven't changed, how? And what about GPS only waypoints? I still don't have the NFDC in my plane.
 
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