Going to learn tail wheel

MBDiagMan said:
That’s fine, but realize how important it is to remove before flight.
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Wouldn't that be pretty obvious when you get to the "Flight controls free and correct" and "Check flaps" part of the run-up checklist? "Hm, stick only goes back and forth but not side to side, eh, good enough!"
 
Coinneach said:
Wouldn't that be pretty obvious when you get to the "Flight controls free and correct" and "Check flaps" part of the run-up checklist? "Hm, stick only goes back and forth but not side to side, eh, good enough!"
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You’d be surprised at how many people omit those steps
 
Another short session yesterday in the 140. Apparently I'm improving, albeit slowly. The instructor said my takeoffs were better - I'm getting used to a little push to bring the tail up, before rotating. Out of 5 landings, I'd say at least 2 were decent. (The others - not so much). Felt a little more comfortable 'dancing' on the rudder pedals. Having an issue switching between nose-dragger trainers with flaps (that make steep approaches easier) vs. this bird, where all landings are no flaps. (Instructor said don't bother with the flaps on this plane - they're too small to do any good.) Tried a couple slips on final - need more practice on those. This is a fun challenge!
 
To minimize straight line deviations during take-off and landing roll out try to focus on the other end of the runway. It may seem counter intuitive. The goal is: do not over control. To do this you actually need to minimize the magnitude of the rudder input without compromising your ability to detect deviations and quickly correct. Keeping a spot far ahead in focus will accomplish both goals. If you focus too close to the aircraft you'll end up over controlling.
 
I placed 3 pcs of white tape on my plane. One, centered on the cockpit dashboard, the next one in the middle of the engine cowling, and the third pc on the front edge of the leading edge of the front cowling... all forming a straight line. My ACI would say "Gunsight" and that was code for a bunch of reminders; choose a strategy (2 wheel vs 3 wheel choice), keep the cross wind in mind and where it is coming from and keep the ailerons in the wind, and, finally... for God's sake keep the damned plane IN THE MIDDLE OF THE RUNWAY AT ALL COSTS...
The "Gunsight" is very helpful for landing focus. And it forces me to look down the runway as Arnold stated... it keeps me from looking at the ground and the pretty girls hanging out at the Cirrus'... seriously, the Gunsight is a fabulous focus tool for us tailwheel newbies.
 
AGLyme said:
I placed 3 pcs of white tape on my plane. One, centered on the cockpit dashboard, the next one in the middle of the engine cowling, and the third pc on the front edge of the leading edge of the front cowling... all forming a straight line. My ACI would say "Gunsight" and that was code for a bunch of reminders; choose a strategy (2 wheel vs 3 wheel choice), keep the cross wind in mind and where it is coming from and keep the ailerons in the wind, and, finally... for God's sake keep the damned plane IN THE MIDDLE OF THE RUNWAY AT ALL COSTS...
The "Gunsight" is very helpful for landing focus. And it forces me to look down the runway as Arnold stated... it keeps me from looking at the ground and the pretty girls hanging out at the Cirrus'... seriously, the Gunsight is a fabulous focus tool for us tailwheel newbies.
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I did that a few times for students that having some difficulty figuring out what straight-ahead was. Did it on the 172s and Champ. Just one long strip. Seemed to help considerably. But don't leave that tape there too long or it won't come off without leaving a mess or taking some paint with it. Engine heat after shutdown soon cooks it on there.
 
Dan Thomas said:
having some difficulty figuring out what straight-ahead was
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nice... anyway, I used high quality marine white tape it is designed for extremely hot surfaces and it will peel off as soon as I figure out where straight ahead is... I tested the tape after 2 flights, comes right up...
 
Had a short session yesterday evening, moderate wind aligned with the runway. Landings are improving, according to the instructor - at least this time, there were none that needed an emergency save! He even complimented me on a couple landings. Plan to work on wheel landings next time - I've read that they're challenging in a 140 with springy gear.
 
40YearDream said:
Another short session yesterday in the 140. Apparently I'm improving, albeit slowly. The instructor said my takeoffs were better - I'm getting used to a little push to bring the tail up, before rotating. Out of 5 landings, I'd say at least 2 were decent. (The others - not so much). Felt a little more comfortable 'dancing' on the rudder pedals. Having an issue switching between nose-dragger trainers with flaps (that make steep approaches easier) vs. this bird, where all landings are no flaps. (Instructor said don't bother with the flaps on this plane - they're too small to do any good.) Tried a couple slips on final - need more practice on those. This is a fun challenge!
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Two things,
if you bring the tail up slightly on takeoffs to the right attitude, there's no need to "rotate", the plane will fly of when it's ready.
Your plane has flaps, yes they're not as effective as a C-150 with 40 degrees, but learn to use them. Practice landings with and without, learn your airplane.

Techniques change with conditions, wind, runway conditions, DA and obstacles.
 
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40YearDream said:
Plan to work on wheel landings next time - I've read that they're challenging in a 140 with springy gear.
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Yes, it gets interesting if you touch down a little too firmly. One trick you can use is to bank slightly just as you are about to touch down so that one wheel touches first; if it's a bit firm, the gear will dissipate much of the energy by rolling the airplane level instead of bouncing it back up.
 
For wheelies in the 140, it's interesting to play with carrying a smidge of power vs idle, and flap vs no flap. You have a narrow window of time with idle+flaps, since the plane decelerates quickly and will drop you onto the runway and bounce if you're too high. You may find it easier to start by carrying a little power and driving it on, or by landing without flaps (but not both, otherwise you'll float into the next county).
 
I’ve never done anything in the 140 other than just let the tail come up when it’s ready, which is before it wants to come off the runway. If you get the trim set just right, shortly after the tail comes up it will just come off the runway on its own like a 150. That’s the way I was trained, but I’m sure there is more than one method.

Flaps aren’t very effective on a 140, and it’s identical little brother the 120 doesn’t even have them. They are that unnecessary.
 
Humbled again yesterday in the 140, this time with a crosswind 7 gusting 15. I am pretty sure I could *not* have put the airplane down under that condition, without breaking it. After a 1/2 hour, told the instructor to take the plane and land it - I couldn't get close to a decent landing after 3 tries.
Even he had a challenging time to land.
Due to a change of plans, I've decided to put a TW endorsement on hold for now. Not expecting to be doing any TW flying soon. Just joined a club that has all 'nose dragger' planes, and will focus on getting checked out in those.
 
I went up with an instructor a few weeks ago to regain proficiency in wheel landings. I was having trouble until he advised me to watch the far end of the runway prior to touchdown, and it made a big difference. A couple of weeks ago I went up again and was having trouble until I realized that I was forgetting to watch the far end of the runway. Suddenly it was all better.

I think it helps with my three-point landings as well.
 
40YearDream said:
Humbled again yesterday in the 140, this time with a crosswind 7 gusting 15. I am pretty sure I could *not* have put the airplane down under that condition, without breaking it. After a 1/2 hour, told the instructor to take the plane and land it - I couldn't get close to a decent landing after 3 tries.
Even he had a challenging time to land.
Due to a change of plans, I've decided to put a TW endorsement on hold for now. Not expecting to be doing any TW flying soon. Just joined a club that has all 'nose dragger' planes, and will focus on getting checked out in those.
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I would keep at it. If you let it go for several years you'll be starting all over again. Gusting to 15 in a 140 would be an awful challenge for a newbie. Don't let it stop your progress.

There are pilots that can't handle a gusting 15 crosswind in a tame trike. Taildragger training can fix that. One learns to use all the controls, as much control travel is necessary, all the time. You master that airplane instead of letting it master you.
 
40YearDream said:
...I couldn't get close to a decent landing after 3 tries...
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Sometimes it takes more than 3 tries. You just need to get it into your head that you've got plenty of gas and on each try you don't HAVE to land. Especially with gusty winds it's a matter of timing. On one approach the wind will suddenly be calm or right on the nose and bam, you're down, just like that. Drama over.
 
Dan Thomas said:
I would keep at it. If you let it go for several years you'll be starting all over again. Gusting to 15 in a 140 would be an awful challenge for a newbie. Don't let it stop your progress.

There are pilots that can't handle a gusting 15 crosswind in a tame trike. Taildragger training can fix that. One learns to use all the controls, as much control travel is necessary, all the time. You master that airplane instead of letting it master you.
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Spot on. You can finish the endorsement now and then just get a checkout in a specific plane down the road. And there may come a day when you are low on fuel in a trike, facing a 20G35 direct crosswind. Having once struggled through and survived crosswind training in a 140 will greatly improve your chances of making a safe landing in the stronger winds without exhausting your fuel.
 
40YearDream said:
Humbled again yesterday in the 140, this time with a crosswind 7 gusting 15. I am pretty sure I could *not* have put the airplane down under that condition, without breaking it. After a 1/2 hour, told the instructor to take the plane and land it - I couldn't get close to a decent landing after 3 tries.
Even he had a challenging time to land.
Due to a change of plans, I've decided to put a TW endorsement on hold for now. Not expecting to be doing any TW flying soon. Just joined a club that has all 'nose dragger' planes, and will focus on getting checked out in those.
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Keep at it. Direct crosswind g15 is a handful for any light tailwheel, in my opinion. Were you flying it in a crab down, then straightening it out right before 3 point? I ask, because sometimes there's not enough rudder to bring it all the way in wing low.
 
Albany Tom said:
Keep at it. Direct crosswind g15 is a handful for any light tailwheel, in my opinion. Were you flying it in a crab down, then straightening it out right before 3 point? I ask, because sometimes there's not enough rudder to bring it all the way in wing low.
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If one can't get a taildragger to fly aligned with the runway, the crosswind is too strong for it. Rudder authority diminishes as airspeed drops, and if the rudder is against the stop in the rollout, control is dangerously marginal. Been there, done that, even in heavier taildraggers.
 
Dan Thomas said:
If one can't get a taildragger to fly aligned with the runway, the crosswind is too strong for it. Rudder authority diminishes as airspeed drops, and if the rudder is against the stop in the rollout, control is dangerously marginal. Been there, done that, even in heavier taildraggers.
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You're correct, and I wouldn't take off if I didn't have that control. The problem comes when the winds pick up after you're already up. Then you have to bring it down. Most of the time, you can just bring it in straight. But if you don't have enough tail authority, you can bring it in crabbed, then straighten out in the last few feet.
 
Albany Tom said:
You're correct, and I wouldn't take off if I didn't have that control. The problem comes when the winds pick up after you're already up. Then you have to bring it down. Most of the time, you can just bring it in straight. But if you don't have enough tail authority, you can bring it in crabbed, then straighten out in the last few feet.
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If you don't have the rudder authority to get it straight on short final, you don't have the rudder authority to keep it straight after touchdown. Kicking it straight will just result in drifting sideways across the runway as you touch down. It's no better than landing in a crab, and taildraggers bite real hard if you do that. If I couldn't keep it aligned with the runway in a slip on very short final, I went around. More than once I just landed into the wind in the field next to the runway. If the wind is that strong you don't need the distance.

The hardest part about landing in a strong crosswind is the latter part of the rollout, when all flight control authority is just about gone. When I taught tailwheel crosswind stuff I often didn't do touch-and-goes; the students needed to see how critical it got as it slowed down, and how easily the wind could take over. When the tail is down the wing is at an AoA that makes it create lots of lift even at low airspeed, and you'd better be expecting it. Full aileron into the wind, or that upwind wing will lift and cause an accident. The flight ain't over just because the airplane is on the ground. If the runway has some snow on it, the tailwheel is almost useless and you'd better be using lots of rudder, too.
 
Dan Thomas said:
If you don't have the rudder authority to get it straight on short final, you don't have the rudder authority to keep it straight after touchdown. Kicking it straight will just result in drifting sideways across the runway as you touch down. It's no better than landing in a crab, and taildraggers bite real hard if you do that. If I couldn't keep it aligned with the runway in a slip on very short final, I went around. More than once I just landed into the wind in the field next to the runway. If the wind is that strong you don't need the distance.

The hardest part about landing in a strong crosswind is the latter part of the rollout, when all flight control authority is just about gone. When I taught tailwheel crosswind stuff I often didn't do touch-and-goes; the students needed to see how critical it got as it slowed down, and how easily the wind could take over. When the tail is down the wing is at an AoA that makes it create lots of lift even at low airspeed, and you'd better be expecting it. Full aileron into the wind, or that upwind wing will lift and cause an accident. The flight ain't over just because the airplane is on the ground. If the runway has some snow on it, the tailwheel is almost useless and you'd better be using lots of rudder, too.
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You'll drift sideways in you don't correct for wind by lowering a wing, of course. And also of course, it's a bad plan to land in a crab in a tailwheel. I avoided the use of the word "kick" on purpose. It implies a simple rudder fix to the situation. What you're really doing is entering a slip just before landing. I do it with a little bit of power in, and if I'm not straight and drift free before touchdown, I'm going around. Ideally, you're maybe 8' or so off the ground when that happens? Estimating. When landing, you've got full back stick, and the weight on the tail is going to help keep things tracking forward. All of this is conditional on 3 point landing. Maybe just me, but I'd never wheel land in significant crosswind, for exactly the reasons you mention. Too much time spent in areas of low control.

My disclaimers is that my tailwheel experience is only a couple of hundred hours, which is not a lot. That said, I can land in a crosswind that I can't taxi in, and I'm far from being Bob Hoover. Oh, and I agree, find alternatives when possible.
 
Albany Tom said:
You'll drift sideways in you don't correct for wind by lowering a wing, of course. And also of course, it's a bad plan to land in a crab in a tailwheel. I avoided the use of the word "kick" on purpose. It implies a simple rudder fix to the situation. What you're really doing is entering a slip just before landing. I do it with a little bit of power in, and if I'm not straight and drift free before touchdown, I'm going around. Ideally, you're maybe 8' or so off the ground when that happens? Estimating. When landing, you've got full back stick, and the weight on the tail is going to help keep things tracking forward. All of this is conditional on 3 point landing. Maybe just me, but I'd never wheel land in significant crosswind, for exactly the reasons you mention. Too much time spent in areas of low control.
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Yup. I used to do wheel landings in the crosswinds, though. It kept the wing at a lower AoA while I got the thing slowed down, and allowed more brake authority on the upwind wheel. Some airplanes don't care for three-point landings, especially if the CG is forward and they're light. I found the 180 and 185 like that. The stab on those is close to the surface, which causes some ground effect on it and you can run out of up-elevator authority.
 
MBDiagMan said:
Dan, that’s why you you cross control, so that you have more than the rudder in your crosswind toolbox.
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I know. You have to use all the controls, even the throttle at times. And sometimes you have to dump the flaps to get rid of lift.

But you still need enough rudder authority to make it touch down straight. No amount of aileron can make up a shortage of rudder.
 
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Dan Thomas said:
And sometimes you have to dump the flaps to get rid of lift.

But you still need enough rudder authority to make it touch down straight. No amount of aileron can make up a shortage of rudder.
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Flaps, we don't need (or have) no stinkin' flaps.
 
Albany Tom said:
Keep at it. Direct crosswind g15 is a handful for any light tailwheel, in my opinion. Were you flying it in a crab down, then straightening it out right before 3 point? I ask, because sometimes there's not enough rudder to bring it all the way in wing low.
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Was attempting to slip from about mid-final on - was crabbed initially (as that seems easier) - for a few moments, things would be lined up, but then a gust / turbulence / something would throw everything way off. Was not pretty. Don't recall running out of rudder, as the 140 rudder seems very effective. Never got close enough to the ground to decide between 3-point or wheelie.
 
40YearDream said:
Was attempting to slip from about mid-final on - was crabbed initially (as that seems easier) - for a few moments, things would be lined up, but then a gust / turbulence / something would throw everything way off. Was not pretty. Don't recall running out of rudder, as the 140 rudder seems very effective. Never got close enough to the ground to decide between 3-point or wheelie.
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Landing type (3pt or wheel) should be decided before you get anywhere near final IMO.
 
Juliet Hotel said:
Landing type (3pt or wheel) should be decided before you get anywhere near final IMO.
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Unless you're flying an unusual a/c type that actually requires one type of landing or the other (i.e. 3-pointers in Sukhois), c'mon... it just doesn't matter. You can easily convert a wheel landing attempt to a 3-pointer if you hold it off too long, or conversely a 3-point attempt to a wheelie if you touch down softly a little short of 3-point attitude.
 
RoscoeT said:
Unless you're flying an unusual a/c type that actually requires one type of landing or the other (i.e. 3-pointers in Sukhois), c'mon... it just doesn't matter. You can easily convert a wheel landing attempt to a 3-pointer if you hold it off too long, or conversely a 3-point attempt to a wheelie if you touch down softly a little short of 3-point attitude.
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Yup. Most wheel landings aren't with the tail way up, anyway. That takes far too much speed and just lengthens the landing roll unreasonably. Best wheel landing is with with the tail just off the runway a few inches, and raising the tail a bit on touchdown to reduce the lift and gain some traction. It's also a lot easier on that tiny tailwheel.
 
RoscoeT said:
You can easily convert a wheel landing attempt to a 3-pointer if you hold it off too long, or conversely a 3-point attempt to a wheelie if you touch down softly a little short of 3-point attitude.
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True you can. Doesn't mean you should IMO. Especially if you're low on tailwheel time.
 
Juliet Hotel said:
True you can. Doesn't mean you should IMO. Especially if you're low on tailwheel time.
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It's a non-issue anyway. It's not like anyone really ever flies down final specifically planning on converting a wheelie attempt to a 3-pointer and vice versa. It's just something that happens, and it's definitely not a problem.
 
RoscoeT said:
It's a non-issue anyway. It's not like anyone really ever flies down final specifically planning on converting a wheelie attempt to a 3-pointer and vice versa. It's just something that happens, and it's definitely not a problem.
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Glad to know I'm not the only one making it up as I go along.
 
Now THIS is a taildragger airfield. Always a runway into the wind, and usually a nice soft grass one. Landed at this Kansas gem (KLQR) a few days ago on my way back from Colorado to Florida. Those big turbine dusters are taildraggers too!

PXL_20210731_173615679.jpg
 
Ed Haywood said:
Now THIS is a taildragger airfield. Always a runway into the wind, and usually a nice soft grass one. Landed at this Kansas gem (KLQR) a few days ago on my way back from Colorado to Florida. Those big turbine dusters are taildraggers too!

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In Canada during WW2, the Commonwealth Air Training Plan built triangular airfields all across the Canadian prairies and in some other provinces as well. Traces of these can still be seen, and some are still airports, though often only one of the runways is maintained, the one most closely aligned with the prevailing winds. Those students were learning to fly Tiger Moths, Harvards and Yales, Avro Ansons, Lancasters and other bombers, Hurricanes, Spitfires, P-51s, Lysanders. Taildraggers all.

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I haven't researched it, but I imagine that the triangular layout not only made the ab initio training easier, but also let instructors make students land on the runways with the wind across them. In Britain and Europe they didn't usually have the convenience of triangular airfields and they had to know how to handle crosswinds.
 
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Dan Thomas said:
In Canada during WW2, the Commonwealth Air Training Plan built triangular airfields all across the Canadian prairies and in some other provinces as well. Traces of these can still be seen, and some are still airports, though often only one of the runways is maintained, the one most closely aligned with the prevailing winds. Those students were learning to fly Tiger Moths, Harvards and Yales, Avro Ansons, Lancasters and other bombers, Hurricanes, Spitfires, P-51s, Lysanders. Taildraggers all.
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We have dozens of those in Florida. Almost every major airfield here started life as a triangle. Keystone, for example. Florida was one giant air base during the war.

keystone.PNG
 
40YearDream said:
Humbled again yesterday in the 140, this time with a crosswind 7 gusting 15. I am pretty sure I could *not* have put the airplane down under that condition, without breaking it. After a 1/2 hour, told the instructor to take the plane and land it - I couldn't get close to a decent landing after 3 tries.
Even he had a challenging time to land.
Due to a change of plans, I've decided to put a TW endorsement on hold for now. Not expecting to be doing any TW flying soon. Just joined a club that has all 'nose dragger' planes, and will focus on getting checked out in those.
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Absolutely do not get discouraged I bought a beautiful 1946 C140 stationed at my home field with no TW experience. I hired a great guy who flew in a C195 TW to teach me. He laughed all the way down the runway on the first takeoff. I had read many of the books watched videos etc and the only reason we didn’t depart the runway “I thought” was we reached flying speed. Hahaha He was saying you big jet Captain you have to use your feet correctly. Etc not mean just chiding. In the end I was just grossly over controlling it. You will get it it just takes practice and IT WILL MAKE YOU A BETTER PILOT! Its not about any kind of interconnect but all about CG of the aircraft.
 
RoscoeT said:
Unless you're flying an unusual a/c type that actually requires one type of landing or the other (i.e. 3-pointers in Sukhois), c'mon... it just doesn't matter. You can easily convert a wheel landing attempt to a 3-pointer if you hold it off too long, or conversely a 3-point attempt to a wheelie if you touch down softly a little short of 3-point attitude.
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I think what JH was trying to say is that you generally shouldn't change your plan while you are on final. Which is very different from doing a 3-point in response to a bounced wheel landing.

To be honest, I tend to agree with JH. When I was a relatively low tailwheel pilot, EVERY time I changed my mind on three point or wheel landing during short final, I screwed the landing up. Have a plan in advance, stick to it, but.... be prepared to handle issues (like a bounced landing) as they come up.
 
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