Going to learn tail wheel

Depends on the plane. Most conventional gear planes don’t have rudder linked to ailerons like training wheel planes do. That means you have to be competent with your feet, even when in the air.

They are referred to as conventional gear by the FAA, so that means the training wheel planes are the ones that are unconventional, thus wrong wheeled.
 
Kenny Phillips said:
Any pilot can fly a taildragger. It's taking off and landing that's difficult. I have little experience, and it all went fine, but haven't been in a wrong wheeler for decades.
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A lot of older taildragger designs don't have the adverse yaw designed out of them, and you need to use the rudder more in flight. And many of them also didn't have a lot of wing washout to tame the stall, and if one skidded that base-to-final turn it could bite.
 
MBDiagMan said:
Most conventional gear planes don’t have rudder linked to ailerons like training wheel planes do.
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Not many trikes have rudder-aileron interconnects. The Tri-Pacer did. Ercoupe, of course. 150s? Never. 172s did if they had the seaplane kit installed, but the springs were so light you never knew it was there. It wasn't in any other 172s. Never saw it in 182s or 210s or 206s. Never saw it in any PA-28. Cirrus has it. In short, it's not a common feature at all.
 
Go fly an old airplane, have fun with it. It will teach you skills you should have. I did my tailwheel endorsement in a Pacer, the first 5 minutes I was like "oh, crap. this is going to be hard". an hour later and I was leading the turns with rudder. It was the most fun I'd had since I got my ticket, but I was also only 60 hours after the tailwheel endorsement.
 
Wagondriver said:
an hour later and I was leading the turns with rudder.
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During my tail wheel training my instructor remarked that my time flying ultralights with horrible adverse yaw characteristics was a plus.

I owned a few ultralights. My last one was a Challenger II clip wing special. They were fun airplanes to fly but quite sloppy on the controls. You had to lead with the rudder. Even more fun with the doors on it!
 
Dan Thomas said:
Not many trikes have rudder-aileron interconnects. The Tri-Pacer did. Ercoupe, of course. 150s? Never. 172s did if they had the seaplane kit installed, but the springs were so light you never knew it was there. It wasn't in any other 172s. Never saw it in 182s or 210s or 206s. Never saw it in any PA-28. Cirrus has it. In short, it's not a common feature at all.
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The only planes I remember flying with the interconnects are an Ercoupe, no rudder pedals, and the later Citation 500 series. The Ercoupe was back in the 80's and an American Airlines pilot bought one and his insurance required a checkout with an instructor. Neither one of us had flown one so we sit down for a short time and went over the small manual. Then we went out and flew it around for an hour or so. I was picked because I did have some time in a Alon A2 Aircoupe.
 
Dan Thomas said:
Not many trikes have rudder-aileron interconnects. The Tri-Pacer did. Ercoupe, of course. 150s? Never. 172s did if they had the seaplane kit installed, but the springs were so light you never knew it was there. It wasn't in any other 172s. Never saw it in 182s or 210s or 206s. Never saw it in any PA-28. Cirrus has it. In short, it's not a common feature at all.
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Maules have it too but they're basically a copy of the Pacer.
 
Silvaire said:
Maules have it too but they're basically a copy of the Pacer.
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I found an interconnect in a Maule M4, but it wasn't to the rudder. It was to the rudder tab, which moved the rudder in flight when the ailerons were moved. No springs in the system. Do later Maules have a direct rudder-aileron interconnect?
 
We had an '04 M7 and I thought it did but maybe not. I think using a servo tab pretty much accomplishes the same thing. It also had bungees on the flaps which was sorta weird.
 
Silvaire said:
We had an '04 M7 and I thought it did but maybe not. I think using a servo tab pretty much accomplishes the same thing. It also had bungees on the flaps which was sorta weird.
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Yup. Springs to hold them up. Parked in a tailwind, those flaps got pounded up and down until stuff got bent or broken. Maule came up with an elegant, rather simple fix for that. As a former designer of mechanical stuff, I admired it. The ragwing Pipers had the same spring-return setup. The ideas was to use only one cable, for pulling the flaps down.
 
I think you need to look at it. It's not exactly like that. The maintenance manual for the M7 was only 33 pages. It doesn't get into it much but when you're flying the thing if you have someone else watch, when you put full flaps in they don't come down all the way. Not until you flare and get near stall. That's what I meant by "sorta weird"
 
AGLyme said:
I won't waste time on my learning successes thus far, but I will point out my major challenge... "Landing planning" (wheel or 3 point & what is the wind doing?) while in the pattern and executing that plan. I know I know you veterans "don't think" about rudder and aileron inputs because you have been doing it a long time. However, as a new tailwheel guy, I learned that there is zero room for ADD while landing. I am finding that I am like a prize fighter before the big match where I have to get my feet moving, my brain focused on where the wind is coming from and how much of an an aileron input and to what degree am I going to move the stick and rudder... it is a process and I am looking forward to the day when it all "clicks" on windy days. I am "good" on no wind or right down the runway or slightly quartering landings... it's the windy/breezy days that are the challenge.
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Taildraggery is very much like riding a bicycle; it is mostly a balancing act. In both skills you are keeping your CG centered on the opposing force. On a bike the opposing force is gravity pushing up. On a TD the force is the drag of the wheels on the runway. Get too far sideways on a bike and you fall over. Get too far sideways on a TD and you ground loop.

That analogy is useful to illustrate the answer to your question. You don't plan or think about balancing on a bike. You just do it by reflex. If you have ever taught a kid to ride a bike, you will recognize the learning process as very similar. You just keep trying til it clicks. You start out making big corrections, and gradually reduce that until you are making very small corrections to stay centered. You just get the FEEL of it.

You would not learn to ride a bike one day, and expect to ride a technically challenging trail in the mountains the next day. Same goes for TD. Gusty crosswinds take a while to master. Your comfort level doesn't magically click there, it just gradually increases as you get more muscle memory. Just keep saying to yourself: line it up with my feet, adjust left/right with the stick.

Make sure to get some instruction on what to do if you start to lose it. Early in the process, the best reaction is to get the tailwheel planted firmly. If you feel it getting away from you, the correct reaction is throttle up to get airflow over the rudder and increase control authority. Once you get directional stability under control, you can decide whether to go around or work it back down to fast taxi.
 
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MBDiagMan said:
Earlier in the thread there was a debate about tailwheeling being only challenging when on the ground.
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Conventional (TW) landing gear only impacts ground handling and flare.

However, conventional landing gear are often found on aircraft with other challenging flight characteristics. Vintage, aerobatic, and backcountry aircraft are more likely to have TW gear. Those same aircraft are more likely to have more significant adverse yaw and to require more active use of rudder to remain coordinated in flight.

Conversely, tricycle landing gear are usually found on aircraft where challenging characteristics are not desirable, such as trainers and high performance aircraft. Those same aircraft are usually designed to reduce adverse yaw.

So it's not the taildragger gear that makes it more challenging to fly, it is the kind of planes you usually find it on.

We all seek a challenge that motivates us. For some it is dancing on rudder pedals and shoehorning into mountain pastures. For others it is precise control on instruments and mastering highly complex systems. It's all good.
 
Silvaire said:
I think you need to look at it. It's not exactly like that. The maintenance manual for the M7 was only 33 pages. It doesn't get into it much but when you're flying the thing if you have someone else watch, when you put full flaps in they don't come down all the way. Not until you flare and get near stall. That's what I meant by "sorta weird"
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Huh. Some sort of automatic flap extension as airspeed decays. Will have to watch for it, but being retired and not having many Maules around in any case makes that unlikely.

Yes, Maules maintenance manuals were pretty brief. But then, so was the airplane. On that M4 there wasn't any part of the airframe I couldn't have built myself. I didn't see any castings or forgings anywhere. Just machined and welded steel. It's why some mechanics call them "certified homebuilts."
 
Went up 2 days ago, with a strong and unsteady cross wind. Was a humbling experience in the 140. Was the worst pattern and approach I'd ever flown - misjudged the crosswind, and was way too high on final. A slip attempt didn't come out well, went around. 2nd base to final was too low, unstable approach, and the landing was not great. I'm surprised the instructor wasn't yelling at me (he'd warned me in advance about the wind). Decided 1 landing was enough under those circumstances, and called it quits, once down. At least I learned that that wind condition was more than I can handle in that airplane - at least so far.
 
40YearDream said:
at least so far.
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The most important part right there. Tailwheel takes time to master. But it ain't rocket surgery. If I can do it, you can do it. Good job knowing your limits and good on you for remembering that your limits can be expandable.
 
40YearDream said:
Went up 2 days ago, with a strong and unsteady cross wind. Was a humbling experience in the 140. Was the worst pattern and approach I'd ever flown - misjudged the crosswind, and was way too high on final. A slip attempt didn't come out well, went around. 2nd base to final was too low, unstable approach, and the landing was not great. I'm surprised the instructor wasn't yelling at me (he'd warned me in advance about the wind). Decided 1 landing was enough under those circumstances, and called it quits, once down. At least I learned that that wind condition was more than I can handle in that airplane - at least so far.
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Just hang in there and keep practicing. I have a few thousand 140 landings under my belt now and can deal with a lot more situations, but when I was starting, variable winds gave me more trouble than crosswinds. For a crosswind whether gusty or steady, cross controlling is the key. Crab and kick is for the nose wheel guys IMHO. 140’s slip wonderfully, but like the rest of it, it takes practice and KEEP THAT NOSE DOWN when slipping.

Practice and it will come.
 
MBDiagMan said:
Crab and kick is for the nose wheel guys IMHO.
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Crab and kick was my SOP but I'm lazy. ;) If the winds were howling, I'd put it in a slip halfway down final to verify there was enough rudder to hold centerline. But otherwise crab and kick is just quick and easy.
 
Juliet Hotel said:
Crab and kick was my SOP but I'm lazy. ;) If the winds were howling, I'd put it in a slip halfway down final to verify there was enough rudder to hold centerline. But otherwise crab and kick is just quick and easy.
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'Crab and kick' is a misnomer for how most tailwheel pilots do it. Virtually everyone is actually doing crab and slip, not a crab and pure kick. So all the silly discussion over whether pilots prefer to crab or slip is really a discussion about how late pilots choose to transition to a slip....a mile out on final or 6" from the runway is the same dang thing.
 
RoscoeT said:
'Crab and kick' is a misnomer for how most tailwheel pilots do it. Virtually everyone is actually doing crab and slip, not a crab and pure kick. So all the silly discussion over whether pilots prefer to crab or slip is really a discussion about how late pilots choose to transition to a slip....a mile out on final or 6" from the runway is the same dang thing.
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It also doesn’t matter where the third wheel is located.
 
RoscoeT said:
'Crab and kick' is a misnomer for how most tailwheel pilots do it. Virtually everyone is actually doing crab and slip, not a crab and pure kick. So all the silly discussion over whether pilots prefer to crab or slip is really a discussion about how late pilots choose to transition to a slip....a mile out on final or 6" from the runway is the same dang thing.
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Absolutely correct. Instead of crab and kick, I should have said crab then kick and dip.
 
RoscoeT said:
'Crab and kick' is a misnomer for how most tailwheel pilots do it. Virtually everyone is actually doing crab and slip, not a crab and pure kick. So all the silly discussion over whether pilots prefer to crab or slip is really a discussion about how late pilots choose to transition to a slip....a mile out on final or 6" from the runway is the same dang thing.
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For those of us who aren't tailwheel skygods, trying to go from a crab to just the right amount of slip right above the runway is an exercise in testing how much sideload you can tolerate before ground looping. Not such a big deal in nosedraggers.
 
Lindberg said:
For those of us who aren't tailwheel skygods, trying to go from a crab to just the right amount of slip right above the runway is an exercise in testing how much sideload you can tolerate before ground looping. Not such a big deal in nosedraggers.
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Practice makes perfect regardless of where the little wheel is.
 
Lindberg said:
For those of us who aren't tailwheel skygods, trying to go from a crab to just the right amount of slip right above the runway is an exercise in testing how much sideload you can tolerate before ground looping.
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In my experience pilots are pretty good at figuring out whether or not they should do this.
 
Lindberg said:
For those of us who aren't tailwheel skygods, trying to go from a crab to just the right amount of slip right above the runway is an exercise in testing how much sideload you can tolerate before ground looping. Not such a big deal in nosedraggers.
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I consider anything I’m flying to be intolerant of any gear sideload. In a taildragger it seems much more natural to cross control in order to stay traveling straight down the runway AND not drift across the runway regardless of whether it’s wheel or three point. That said 75% of my time is tailwheel and almost all of the rest retract. It just seems very important not to sideload either.

BTW, there is only one big deal in landing my nose dragger and that is to remember to put the gear down. Crosswinds as compared to my little tailwheel moth are cake. Holding it off, bleeding off the speed and greasing it in, is much different from just stalling the moth onto a nice three point. I think a big part of the challenge for me is going back and forth between the two.
 
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RoscoeT said:
'Crab and kick' is a misnomer for how most tailwheel pilots do it. Virtually everyone is actually doing crab and slip, not a crab and pure kick. So all the silly discussion over whether pilots prefer to crab or slip is really a discussion about how late pilots choose to transition to a slip....a mile out on final or 6" from the runway is the same dang thing.
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The "crab and kick" nickname confused the heck out of me as a student pilot 30 years ago. I thought it meant I could kick it straight and slam into the runway with whatever sideload the crosswind imparted. I was beating the hell out of spam can rentals. Taildraggery fixed that quick.
 
Another 1.1 hours of dual yesterday evening in the 140, this time in light winds. Did about 10 landings on asphalt - I'd say that probably 3 of them were good ones! Things seem to work better when the airplane is trimmed on final for about 80.
Still getting used to (after a fair amount of 172 time) after rolling out of a left turn, the 140 will stay in a left skid until given a touch of right rudder. Lead with (a little) rudder, into and out of a turn!
 
40YearDream said:
Still getting used to (after a fair amount of 172 time) after rolling out of a left turn, the 140 will stay in a left skid until given a touch of right rudder. Lead with (a little) rudder, into and out of a turn!
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The very first thing the CFI showed me on our first tailwheel lesson was the concept that when taxiing most tailwheels, you have to put into a turn and then use opposite inputs to take it back out of the turn and get it going straight again. It becomes 2nd nature after a while.
 
40YearDream said:
Lead with (a little) rudder, into and out of a turn!
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Literally leading with the rudder results in a slight momentary skid before the added aileron brings the airplane back into coordination. This is not ideal technique. Some pilots think in terms of 'lead with the rudder' in order to get their feet in the game quickly enough in these old airplanes with lots of adverse yaw, but there is no need to do this. For any given amount of aileron applied at any moment, there is a corresponding amount of rudder that should be simultaneously applied in order to counter adverse yaw. The rudder responds just as quickly as the ailerons, so rather than 'leading with the rudder', focus more on learning the exact amount of rudder needed at the exact right time so that you fly smoothly in perfect coordination. That's the goal anyway, and accomplishing it is a lot of what makes these old airplanes fun to fly.
 
RoscoeT said:
Literally leading with the rudder results in a slight momentary skid before the added aileron brings the airplane back into coordination. This is not ideal technique. Some pilots think in terms of 'lead with the rudder' in order to get their feet in the game quickly enough in these old airplanes with lots of adverse yaw, but there is no need to do this. For any given amount of aileron applied at any moment, there is a corresponding amount of rudder that should be simultaneously applied in order to counter adverse yaw. The rudder responds just as quickly as the ailerons, so rather than 'leading with the rudder', focus more on learning the exact amount of rudder needed at the exact right time so that you fly smoothly in perfect coordination. That's the goal anyway, and accomplishing it is a lot of what makes these old airplanes fun to fly.
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Dutch rolls are a great exercise to get a feel for rudder timing and proportion. Vary the aileron inputs from small to large, and gradual to sudden. Especially beneficial in a tandem seating aircraft because you can line up a spot on the windshield with a landmark and detect the slightest variation in coordination. I like to do a minute or so of dutch rolls on the way out to the acro practice area to warm up my feet.
 
Dan Thomas said:
Yup. Springs to hold them up. Parked in a tailwind, those flaps got pounded up and down until stuff got bent or broken. Maule came up with an elegant, rather simple fix for that. As a former designer of mechanical stuff, I admired it. The ragwing Pipers had the same spring-return setup. The ideas was to use only one cable, for pulling the flaps down.
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A friend recommended that I make gust locks to pin the flaps to the ailerons for that reason...
 
Leaving aside all the snark and chest-thumping, learning to drag my tail was the most fun I've had in, well, ever. And it made me a better nosedragger as well. There's literally no downside to getting the TW endorsement.
 
I took my son up for a first ride in the new (to us) plane… he loved it. Have enough landing confidence to fly to OSH
 
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