Going to learn tail wheel

GRG55 said:
"Self-driving" cars should be a godsend for you.
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That’s a wrong analogy ... I do enjoy driving a car , but I would enjoy it much less if for instance every time I turn , I had to compensate with a pedal and if somebody offered a car that does not need it and can turn just by , well , turning the steering wheel , I would definitely consider that an improvement and would not miss my old way of driving ...wouldn’t you ?
 
Since tailwheel pattern work on a variable, gusty, crosswind day is not your cup of tea, perhaps croquet or shuffleboard would offer the relaxation you’re looking for.

My other fun thing to do is RNAV approaches with feeder routes on a bumpy air day. That’s something that can be done in a nose dragger. Are you up for that?
 
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Warmi said:
That’s a wrong analogy ... I do enjoy driving a car , but I would enjoy it much less if for instance every time I turn , I had to compensate with a pedal and if somebody offered a car that does not need it and can turn just by , well , turning the steering wheel , I would definitely consider that an improvement and would not miss my old way of driving ...wouldn’t you ?
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No, my cars and trucks all have clutch pedals. As fewer and fewer manual transmission cars are built, my choice of vehicles decline. If you don’t know how to do that either, my wife or kids are capable of teaching you.
 
MBDiagMan said:
I think croquet or shuffleboard would offer the relaxation you’re looking for.
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I will certainly look into it ... now , once you get bored with your taildragger and since we are into artificially making our lives more challenging.....I think you should up the game with something like say ...on demand asymmetric flaps deployment, it will really test your rudder skills and make you stand out from the rest of taildragger crowd...

And it is funny how you keep missing ... I was actually born and raised on the other side of the pond and as you probably know cars with automatic transmissions are still somewhat of a luxury over there so I am perfectly capable of driving a stick car - that’s what I grew up with ..not that I miss it but still
 
Been a licensed pilot about 50 years..my first plane was Stinson 108-1. Now fly a Cessna 195 that was my dad's plane..acquired it after my dad passed 25 years ago. Have my A&P/IA just to work on my old planes..also fly a 1955 Bonanza. Unlike the Bonanza, the 195 rudder and ailerons are not linked together...the landing gear is spring steel, with Goodyear Crosswind wheels and brakes. Whenever I make a great landing there is never anyone around to see it...:)
 
So you don’t still drive a stick? Why would you not? Cant imagine wanting to drive anything else.

Yes I lived in Germany two years and did lots of business travel in Western Europe about twenty years ago. I love renting manual transmission cars in Europe.
 
Warmi said:
That’s a wrong analogy ... I do enjoy driving a car , but I would enjoy it much less if for instance every time I turn , I had to compensate with a pedal and if somebody offered a car that does not need it and can turn just by , well , turning the steering wheel , I would definitely consider that an improvement and would not miss my old way of driving ...wouldn’t you ?
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No.

I'm a mechanical engineer, but I absolutely hate road vehicles/boats/planes that are too "perfect".
That's why I don't own a Toyota or Lexus, for example. They make excellent vehicles. But they have no faults, no personality, they are too perfect, and thus bland. I suspect it might be one of the reasons I would shy away from a Cirrus.

Here's a pic of the gymkhana racer I built up to compete in the 1970s. No anti-lock brakes, no stability control, no traction control, no adaptive cruise control and no automatic emergency braking. No power steering or automatic transmission either. Notorious hair trigger throttle and a deliberately tuned tendency to oversteer (the latter trait shared with taildraggers :D). Extremely competitive on the weekend courses. Got me to classes Monday to Friday. This was all during the era when Datsun's Z took an unprecedented 10 consecutive annual SCCA C-Class Championships. Not the best all-round road vehicle I have ever owned, but definitely the best car - more sheer basic enjoyment to drive than any other car I have ever had. Wish I still owned it. But I suspect you wouldn't understand, unfortunately.

GRG's 1972 240Z (2).JPG
 
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I own a taildragger, I've flown more than a few different types of taildraggers, and if someone doesn't want to fly one it does not bother me in the slightest.

OP: Good luck and have fun with it. They can be fun and they can be challenging.

Nauga,
who understands handling qualities and workload
 
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I love all kinds of aviation. But flying a taildragger is like driving a convertible. It just brings a smile to my face.

Sometimes flying an airplane that requires a little more finesse like a CT (Warmi) instead of (fill in the name of docile trainer here) makes flying more fun.

40yearDream please let us know what you think after the first flight and after your endorsement! I’d love to hear what you think!
 
40YearDream said:
Nauga - I am looking forward to the challenge!

I thought I was starting a positive thread. Disappointing how rapidly threads degrade into arguments.
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Like every other field of endeavor, there are numerous opinions and desires and dislikes. That's because there are people who enjoy the thrill of achievement or a bit of risk or maybe a lot of risk, and there are people who want to stay so safe that they never face any threat. Some of the latter won't even get into an airplane. Some PPLs won't leave the circuit.

That's just the diversity of the human race and we just have to put up with each other.

But the points made about manual transmissions versus automatics are valid, as are the points made between trikes and taildraggers. A person who learned in an automatic and has no desire to learn manual shift is therefore stuck with only being able to drive automatics, limiting that person's options. The trike pilot is stuck with trikes. If trike pilots are OK with that, good. But they shouldn't belittle those of us who enjoyed learning taildragging and love flying them. They're just asking for backlash and recrimination. I don't fly aerobatics and I don't criticize those who do. I don't jump off cliffs, either, and I sure wouldn't want to do it. Don't even like to watch it.

The fact remains that taildragger training DOES improve overall flying skills enormously. I saw it repeatedly as a taildragger instructor.
 
Dan Thomas said:
There's a thrill in mastering something that few people master, and there's a thrill in finding out how flying used to be many years ago.

One in 500 people (0.2%) hold a pilot license or permit of any sort, in Canada or the US. That makes pilots pretty rare. Of those, I'd figure that no more than one in ten can fly a taildragger, making those people one in 5000.
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I think we found the guy who couldn't master it. :D
 
We all do want
Dan Thomas said:
Like every other field of endeavor, there are numerous opinions and desires and dislikes. That's because there are people who enjoy the thrill of achievement or a bit of risk or maybe a lot of risk, and there are people who want to stay so safe that they never face any threat. Some of the latter won't even get into an airplane. Some PPLs won't leave the circuit.

That's just the diversity of the human race and we just have to put up with each other.

But the points made about manual transmissions versus automatics are valid, as are the points made between trikes and taildraggers. A person who learned in an automatic and has no desire to learn manual shift is therefore stuck with only being able to drive automatics, limiting that person's options. The trike pilot is stuck with trikes. If trike pilots are OK with that, good. But they shouldn't belittle those of us who enjoyed learning taildragging and love flying them. They're just asking for backlash and recrimination. I don't fly aerobatics and I don't criticize those who do. I don't jump off cliffs, either, and I sure wouldn't want to do it. Don't even like to watch it.

The fact remains that taildragger training DOES improve overall flying skills enormously. I saw it repeatedly as a taildragger instructor.
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You have it backwards. It is not trike pilots doing it but the other way around. The only reason I responded is because of “training wheels” smug types of comments directed at people who don’t fly taildraggers.
 
You did indeed start a positive thread. Unfortunately there are those who are jealous and enviable regarding your endeavor.

Enjoy it! It will be a wonderful experience and congrats for not turning away from a challenge.
 
Warmi said:
We all do want


You have it backwards. It is not trike pilots doing it but the other way around. The only reason I responded is because of “training wheels” smug types of comments directed at people who don’t fly taildraggers.
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That’s funny. You say that you responded to the training wheel comment, but that’s not the post you quoted in your first contentious post

Apparently Lindbergs assessment is correct.
 
Yes, sure he is correct... I even mentioned myself I didn’t not continue with my tailwheel training because it was boring and felt like trying to prove some kind of point just to prove the point. I knew right there I did not want to fly taildraggers and my current low-wing offered a lot more comfort and more pleasurable ride, much better visibility and was much easier to control and fly so why bother ? I live in flat-ass IL and there is no practical use for anything taildraggers excel at.
I just don’t give a **** about taildraggers and don’t think they make you better at anything but flying taildraggers and let that be the end of it.
 
Dan Thomas said:
The fact remains that taildragger training DOES improve overall flying skills enormously. I saw it repeatedly as a taildragger instructor.
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I agree. I instructed for about 500 hours in Cubs back in the 80's and instructing in tailwheel improves your flying agility even more. I flew with a lower time guy today that has tailwheel time and he was constantly on the runway centerline even though we were in nosewheel airplanes.
 
Warmi said:
Yes, sure he is correct... I even mentioned myself I didn’t not continue with my tailwheel training because it was boring and felt like trying to prove some kind of point just to prove the point. I knew right there I did not want to fly taildraggers and my current low-wing offered a lot more comfort and more pleasurable ride, much better visibility and was much easier to control and fly so why bother ? I live in flat-ass IL and there is no practical use for anything taildraggers excel at.
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A fair and valid opinion.
I just don’t give a **** about taildraggers and don’t think they make you better at anything but flying taildraggers and let that be the end of it.
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No desire to debate you or anyone else on this, but your opinion does not match my personal experience on this particular point so I will simply say I disagree and leave it at that.
 
Warmi said:
Yes, sure he is correct... I even mentioned myself I didn’t not continue with my tailwheel training because it was boring and felt like trying to prove some kind of point just to prove the point. I knew right there I did not want to fly taildraggers and my current low-wing offered a lot more comfort and more pleasurable ride, much better visibility and was much easier to control and fly so why bother ? I live in flat-ass IL and there is no practical use for anything taildraggers excel at.
I just don’t give a **** about taildraggers and don’t think they make you better at anything but flying taildraggers and let that be the end of it.
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Boring! Maybe you should borrow a stethoscope and just make sure your heart is still beating. Have you ever had low blood pressure?

This sort of reminds me of the folks who changed away from an engineering major that required thermodynamics. When they got to that course, all of a sudden they would say some thing like: “I can’t imagine myself cooped up in a job that keeps me indoors, or some other excuse.

it’s quite alright though. Not every one is cut out for it. Nothing like a plane with no challenge. Just kick back, dial in that bug for the autopilot, turn on your favorite music and enjoy watching the cornfields go by.
 
I've got mixed feelings about this one.

TW training CAN expose you to new techniques and require you develop new skills, but that depends on how you were originally taught, and if your experience is in the recreational/day-vfr/SEL/straight-and-level world. That said, you can pretty much count on increasing your skills.

Plus, the airplanes look better than tricycle gear airplanes when they're parked. That's the important thing.

As for needing it? For work: a 206 with biggish tires can do ALMOST anything a TW airplane can. And places where the TW is really needed over the 206 (if they exist) are places you REALLY want to think about before you go into. Not saying it's a bad idea, but be good at it first.

There are a lot of ways things can go south: like manac further up said:
manac said:
Taildragger skill is highly over rated, it’s just a license to worry.
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There's somthing to that.

I'm a TW instructor (the rule in the 90's requiring an endorsement created a cottage industry for guys like me). My take: You'll have fun, you'll learn a lot, and I hope you're able to fly a TW enough to lock in those new skills. For those that don't want to, that's fine too. As for the OP: if you want to further your skill development after the TW, here's what I encourage my students to do:
  • Learn aerobatics, find a place you can rent an acro airplane (or buy one), and do it enough that you get proficient.
  • Get an instrument rating. Fly in IMC enough that you get proficient.
  • Get a glider ticket. Fly enough that you get proficient.

Each of these will teach you precision control of the airplane -- but each in it's own way. Collectively, they'll make you a MUCH better pilot. Note also that there's no TW on that list (acro airplanes - especially "legitimate" ones that have negative g capability, are almost all TW). A pilot that can do an honest slow roll will have a better understanding of adverse yaw than most TW pilots, and will pick up crosswind ops with minimal training.

A note on proficiency, based solely on my observations of students: If you actually get proficient, you can step away from each of those three for a while if you need to. If you don't get proficient and step away, then the skills will erode pretty quickly. I see a ton of pilots that got their endorsement, then didn't use it for 10 years. It's almost like starting from scratch.
 
MBDiagMan said:
it’s quite alright though. Not every one is cut out for it. Nothing like a plane with no challenge. Just kick back, dial in that bug for the autopilot, turn on your favorite music and enjoy watching the cornfields go by.
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Not every challenging airplane is a taildragger, and not every challenging characteristic is enhancing.

Nauga,
who doesn't judge you for what you fly, he judges you for HOW you fly.
 
TonyG said:
A note on proficiency, based solely on my observations of students: If you actually get proficient, you can step away from each of those three for a while if you need to. If you don't get proficient and step away, then the skills will erode pretty quickly. I see a ton of pilots that got their endorsement, then didn't use it for 10 years. It's almost like starting from scratch.
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I'll second this.
 
nauga said:
Not every challenging airplane is a taildragger, and not every challenging characteristic is enhancing.

Nauga,
who doesn't judge you for what you fly, he judges you for HOW you fly.
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While the first part is true, I “liked” it for the last part.
 
There's an incredibly wide range of experiences one can enjoy as a pilot - VFR & IFR, low & slow, pressurized/high & fast, back country, cross country, aerobatics, tailwheels, floats, amphibians, sailplanes, helicopters, gyrocopters, piston/turboprop/jet and I've probably missed a bunch.

I don't think it matters what you're flying. As long as you're out flying something. And enjoying doing it. Different strokes, and all that.
 
Agreed, but jumping in the middle of a discussion amongst a group with a similar interest, belittling their love for what they do isn’t a way to win friends. It’s simply a matter of wanting to stir things up.

From the title it is easy to see someone is excited about their new tailwheel endeavor. Why open the thread just so you can rain on his parade by stating their opinion that there is no advantage to tailwheel flying.

I personally don’t get excited about experimental but many people do. When Seeing a thread about experimental, it seems for me the best thing is just cruise on by and let them enjoy their common interest.
 
MBDiagMan said:
Agreed, but jumping in the middle of a discussion amongst a group with a similar interest, belittling their love for what they do isn’t a way to win friends. It’s simply a matter of wanting to stir things up.

From the title it is easy to see someone is excited about their new tailwheel endeavor. Why open the thread just so you can rain on his parade by stating their opinion that there is no advantage to tailwheel flying.

I personally don’t get excited about experimental but many people do. When Seeing a thread about experimental, it seems for me the best thing is just cruise on by and let them enjoy their common interest.
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:thumbsup:
 
I do not have a tail wheel endorsement. I do fly an Airbus for a living, and I actually got a kick out of it when my mother in law saw a Cub and asked if I could fly it. I said, no, I’m not qualified. She was mystified !!
 
40YearDream said:
The flight school I've earned my PPL (PPC?) through now has a Cessna 140 (1946 edition) available for training. After a few short 'hamburger runs' with friends, I'm looking for something else. Tail wheel looks like a fun challenge. I've flown lots of r/c tail draggers, some were easy, some were unmanageable - will be interesting to see how this compares (besides the price!) Planning a first lesson this Saturday - grass fields love tail draggers!
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I hope you enjoy it. I know I do.
 
All I know is that if I put a nose wheel on my Hatz it would turn it into one UGLY airplane... :eek:
 
Once you realize the true purpose of the nose gear, it makes no difference which end the little wheel is on.
 
Well, I guess that proves I’m no super pilot. I fly planes with the third wheel on both ends and it certainly makes a difference when I’m flying them.
 
I thought that what Mule Skinner was saying is that he didn’t need the endorsement to fly tailwheel. When the endorsement requirement was implemented, if you had acted as PIC in a tailwheel (conventional gear) aircraft, you were grandfathered in and required no endorsement.

The Grandfather date was April 15, 1991.
 
These discussions always devolve and few point out the real reasons tailwheel airplanes are still being designed and built- they are mechanically simpler, lighter, easier to build, generally more rugged, more prop clearance, and take easy advantage of a naturally strong mounting point on any airplane- the firewall area. In some planes, optimal weight and aerodynamic gains matter. Let me know when you see a tricycle Red Bull air racer.
 
RoscoeT said:
These discussions always devolve and few point out the real reasons tailwheel airplanes are still being designed and built- they are mechanically simpler, lighter, easier to build, generally more rugged, more prop clearance, and take easy advantage of a naturally strong mounting point on any airplane- the firewall area. In some planes, optimal weight and aerodynamic gains matter. Let me know when you see a tricycle Red Bull air racer.
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I think you mean the tailpost. The firewall doesn't figure into taildraggers. It's often the first thing to fail in a trike mishap.
 
RoscoeT said:
These discussions always devolve and few point out the real reasons tailwheel airplanes are still being designed and built- they are mechanically simpler, lighter, easier to build, generally more rugged, more prop clearance, and take easy advantage of a naturally strong mounting point on any airplane- the firewall area. In some planes, optimal weight and aerodynamic gains matter. Let me know when you see a tricycle Red Bull air racer.
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I am afraid that going forward you won’t see any Red Bull air racers , tricycle or not ..
 
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