Go on Basic Med - what am I missing ?

FastEddieB said:
But one can always wish for more. In my case, I would love to be able to get paid for non-passenger Commercial operations, mainly ferrying planes. As long as passengers are not involved, I think it would make sense to allow for such operations - I don’t see how they would entail substantially more risk than private operations. But I’m not complaining!
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Silly, isn’t it?

The ferry plane’s owner could ride along with you and you could legally charge him for instruction. But he can’t remain safely on the ground and pay you.

Logic and the FAA shall never meet.
 
FastEddieB said:
You are correct, of course. But I think the general idea is that BasicMed is a form of medical clearance that allows one to fly.
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Agreed. But there seems to be a common tendency to think of Basic as a “fourth class” medical when in fact it’s completely different.
 
Kritchlow said:
Okay, that explains it. Thanks for that. I just assumed one would need a medical to fly commercially.
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You do, 2nd or 1st class to exercise CPL

A CFI is not making money on their CPL

CFI students plane doesn’t even need a 100hr depending on if plane and CFI are paid/business separate
 
DanStrange said:
You do, 2nd or 1st class to exercise CPL

A CFI is not making money on their CPL

CFI students plane doesn’t even need a 100hr depending on if plane and CFI are paid/business separate
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Well, I certainly accept what you’re saying, but that doesn’t make sense to me. You need a CPL in order to instruct. The reason is because you’re getting paid to fly.
Again, even though it doesn’t make sense to me I do believe you’re right.
 
Kritchlow said:
Well, I certainly accept what you’re saying, but that doesn’t make sense to me. You need a CPL in order to instruct. The reason is because you’re getting paid to fly.
Again, even though it doesn’t make sense to me I do believe you’re right.
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Best argument, why do you need a CPL to get a CFI, if you only need to act as PIC a PPL can do that just as well as CPL, evidenced by CFIs not needing to exercise CPL privileges
 
FastEddieB said:
Maybe the logic is that a CFI must have at one point shown Commercial-level knowledge and proficiency in order to teach such skills?
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Yep, since you can sign people off for a commercial ride, it probably isn't a bad idea to show you've achieved it yourself (the FAA's warped educational theories haven't quite adopted the "those who can't do teach" philosophy). The more curious question is why flight instructor airplane requires an instrument rating.
 
flyingron said:
Yep, since you can sign people off for a commercial ride, it probably isn't a bad idea to show you've achieved it yourself (the FAA's warped educational theories haven't quite adopted the "those who can't do teach" philosophy). The more curious question is why flight instructor airplane requires an instrument rating.
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And, countering my own argument, a CFI doesn't need to be ATP rated to teach those skills, right?
 
Instrument rating probably needed if the plane gets into IMC when teaching someone can land. And there is that 3 hour hood time required for a ppl student.
 
FastEddieB said:
And, countering my own argument, a CFI doesn't need to be ATP rated to teach those skills, right?
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i didn't say teach those skills, I said sign off for the checkride. A CFI (alone) is not an authorization to sign people off for ATP rides.
 
WDD said:
Instrument rating probably needed if the plane gets into IMC when teaching someone can land.
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How should that happen? If a CFI allows that to happen he is reckless and dangerous.

And there is that 3 hour hood time required for a ppl student.
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Which doesn't need an instrument rating to perform.
 
The CFI certificate is tied to your CP or ATP certificate. I believe that is because you are being compensated for flying.
If you surrender your CP certificate, your CFI is null & void.
 
Kritchlow said:
The CFI certificate is tied to your CP or ATP certificate. I believe that is because you are being compensated for flying.
If you surrender your CP certificate, your CFI is null & void.
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You've made this baseless statement before. It's wrong any number of ways.

First, you can't give flight instruction EVEN FOR FREE without BOTH a pilot certificate AND a flight instructor certificate. The FAA as helf that even receiving money for flight instruction is NOT receiving money for being a pilot (hence a third class or even no medical suffices).


You can't exercise the commercial certificate privileges without a medical certificate. That doesn't make them tied either. Nor, does surrendering your commercial pilot certificate make a CFI null and void. If it is, most of the instructors I've flown within the past ten years operating illegally. Note that technically, you only need the Commerical or ATP to OBTAIN the CFI, not to maintain it. To exercise CFI privs you only need some sort of pilot certificate.
 
flyingron said:
You've made this baseless statement before. It's wrong any number of ways.

First, you can't give flight instruction EVEN FOR FREE without BOTH a pilot certificate AND a flight instructor certificate. The FAA as helf that even receiving money for flight instruction is NOT receiving money for being a pilot (hence a third class or even no medical suffices).


You can't exercise the commercial certificate privileges without a medical certificate. That doesn't make them tied either. Nor, does surrendering your commercial pilot certificate make a CFI null and void. If it is, most of the instructors I've flown within the past ten years operating illegally. Note that technically, you only need the Commerical or ATP to OBTAIN the CFI, not to maintain it. To exercise CFI privs you only need some sort of pilot certificate.
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Well, my CFI certificate has always said “only valid when accompanied by pilot certificate xxxxxx”.
Would not that make it null & void if you surrendered your pilot certificate?
 
What *I* don't understand about Basic Med...if I already jumped through the hoops to get an SI, why not just stick with a 2nd or 3rd class? Are people worried about the condition the SI is for, or more worried about developing another?
 
Because in my case, 3rd class with SI for sleep apnea, I had to see my AME every year. For a 3rd class.
Basic Med is much easier.
 
gkainz said:
Because in my case, 3rd class with SI for sleep apnea, I had to see my AME every year. For a 3rd class.
Basic Med is much easier.
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But presumably that SI expires at some point, then you're back on the regular every two year 3rd class, correct?
 
Anonymous said:
What *I* don't understand about Basic Med...if I already jumped through the hoops to get an SI, why not just stick with a 2nd or 3rd class? Are people worried about the condition the SI is for, or more worried about developing another?
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To renew my SI would require additional testing every year which my physician considers unnecessary. Furthermore, in any year the FAA could decide not to grant the SI, could impose more testing, could be delayed in processing, etc. That’s why I decided not to keep rolling the FAA dice and just go Basic.
 
Half Fast said:
To renew my SI would require additional testing every year which my physician considers unnecessary. Furthermore, in any year the FAA could decide not to grant the SI, could impose more testing, could be delayed in processing, etc. That’s why I decided not to keep rolling the FAA dice and just go Basic.
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Mine requires regular therapy, which my therapist agrees with, so no issue there.

But I'm assuming the AME can't issue in office, so the delay would come from the FAA looking at the paperwork they require 60 days prior to expiration?
 
gkainz said:
Because in my case, 3rd class with SI for sleep apnea, I had to see my AME every year. For a 3rd class.
Basic Med is much easier.
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Anonymous said:
But presumably that SI expires at some point, then you're back on the regular every two year 3rd class, correct?
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An SI for sleep apnea is not required for BasicMed. The only requirement that applies is whatever the examining physician considers necessary.
 
flyingron said:
The more curious question is why flight instructor airplane requires an instrument rating.
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that occurred recently enough (early 1970s, or maybe even early 90s?) that one should be able to find the reasoning somewhere.
 
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MauleSkinner said:
that occurred recently enough (early 1970s?) that one should be able to find the reasoning somewhere.
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I realize I’m hung up on this, and possibly completely incorrect for being so, but I always assumed it was because you are flying pax for hire at night and more than 50nm.
Again, I stick to my guns on the CFI being tied to your CP or ATP.
Does any CFI not have that restriction on their certificate, or is that from the past?
 
Kritchlow said:
Again, I stick to my guns on the CFI being tied to your CP or ATP.
Does any CFI not have that restriction on their certificate, or is that from the past?
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I agree, it’s tied to a pilot certificate, but not necessarily the ability to exercise Commercial or ATP privileges.

If you completely surrendered your pilot certificate, you wouldn’t be able to give flight instruction, but as an ATP, I can exercise Private Pilot PIC privileges with a third class medical while giving primary or instrument instruction, and no medical while giving most other instruction. I have to HOLD the certificate, but I’m not exercising privileges at that level. Yes, it’s a weird situation.

of course, I can exercise Sport Pilot instructor privileges with just a Private or Sport Pilot certificate, and it’s still tied to the pilot certificate.
 
MauleSkinner said:
I agree, it’s tied to a pilot certificate, but not necessarily the ability to exercise Commercial or ATP privileges.

If you completely surrendered your pilot certificate, you wouldn’t be able to give flight instruction, but as an ATP, I can exercise Private Pilot PIC privileges with a third class medical while giving primary or instrument instruction, and no medical while giving most other instruction. I have to HOLD the certificate, but I’m not exercising privileges at that level. Yes, it’s a weird situation.

of course, I can exercise Sport Pilot instructor privileges with just a Private or Sport Pilot certificate, and it’s still tied to the pilot certificate.
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Okay, I think I understand. For example, you could surrender your CP cert for a PP cert, and still practice and get paid as a CFI. Because you are only “flying” (and teaching) with a PP cert, you can do that with basic med. Is that correct? But you can’t surrender all pilot certificates...??
I do understand that’s just one scenario.
 
Kritchlow said:
Okay, I think I understand. For example, you could surrender your CP cert for a PP cert, and still practice and get paid as a CFI. Because you are only “flying” (and teaching) with a PP cert, you can do that with basic med. Is that correct? But you can’t surrender all pilot certificates...??
I do understand that’s just one scenario.
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Why would you surrender anything? You just don’t maintain your currency or medical for the higher certificates. That doesn’t mean you have surrendered them.
 
Volzalum said:
Why would you surrender anything? You just don’t maintain your currency or medical for the higher certificates. That doesn’t mean you have surrendered them.
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Right. As I said, that’s just one scenario. I brought that specific one up because I assumed it was tied to a CP cert, not “any pilot certificate”.
Still not sure I grasp everything, but I think I’m starting to.
I’ve been out of the small airplane stuff for many years, and I am still re-learning. Especially all this basic med stuff. All very new to me.
Regardless, the CFI is tied to a pilot certificate, just not necessarily a CP or ATP cert.
 
Kritchlow said:
Right. As I said, that’s just one scenario. I brought that specific one up because I assumed it was tied to a CP cert, not “any pilot certificate”.
Still not sure I grasp everything, but I think I’m starting to.
I’ve been out of the small airplane stuff for many years, and I am still re-learning. Especially all this basic med stuff. All very new to me.
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Again, for that scenario, why? How many pilots actually voluntarily surrender their certificate(s)? The regulations allow you to be a CFI on BasicMed. What else is there to understand?
 
Volzalum said:
Again, for that scenario, why? How many pilots actually voluntarily surrender their certificate(s)? The regulations allow you to be a CFI on BasicMed. What else is there to understand?
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Okay, once again... I know very little about basic med. it’s truly after my time. That’s why I asked the questions I did.
Is that okay?
 
Volzalum said:
Again, for that scenario, why? How many pilots actually voluntarily surrender their certificate(s)? The regulations allow you to be a CFI on BasicMed. What else is there to understand?
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More to your question, I don’t know anyone who has surrendered a certificate. I’m sure people do, but I do not know why they would.

That said, it was just a way to illustrate my question without getting into the semantics of holding a CP cert but only exercising PP privileges (which I did not know was possible while flight instructing).

Sheesh.... this was so simple before the internet.
 
Yeah, we should probably save the "what happens to your CFI cert if you surrender your CP cert" question for a different thread... Certainly people upgrade their pilot cert's all the time (CP -> ATP). I've never heard of someone downgrading one.

But anyway... regarding BasicMed and CFI, I find that the easiest way to think about it is: when you're teaching, do you have to also serve as PIC while you're up there? For primary students and at most flight schools, the answer is "yes", but there are scenarios (like a current pilot in her or her own plane) where the answer is "no".

If the answer is "yes", then you need whatever medical "whatsit" is necessary to act as PIC in that aircraft and for that operation. If you'd need a 3rd class to be PIC, then you need a 3rd class to teach as PIC. If BasicMed will do to be PIC, then all you need is BasicMed to teach as PIC. If all you'd need is SP privileges to be PIC (doing SP training in an LSA), then all you need is a driver's license to teach as PIC.

If the answer is "no", then you don't need any medical whatsits at all, because your client is the PIC, not you. Your client has to have all the medical whatsits. You are being paid to teach, not to fly -- teaching is not considered "exercising commercial privileges".

You can take both a commercial checkride and a CFI checkride with BasicMed, as long as the aircraft and the operation are within BasicMed's limits.
 
Kritchlow said:
Okay, I think I understand. For example, you could surrender your CP cert for a PP cert, and still practice and get paid as a CFI. Because you are only “flying” (and teaching) with a PP cert, you can do that with basic med. Is that correct? But you can’t surrender all pilot certificates...??
I do understand that’s just one scenario.
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Somehow the FAA has determined that while you have to BE a commercial or ATP to instruct (other than Sport Pilot), that you’re not exercising privileges at that level. I don’t understand it. I just know that a third class, basic med, or no medical is required to give instruction (other than Sport Pilot), depending what you’re flying and if you need to act as a crew member or not.

At some point, the FAA overhauled their stance on what level of medical was required for various operations...25 years ago you needed a medical appropriate to the certificate or operation to take a checkride...a first class was required to take an ATP or Part 135 jet checkride. Today you can take an ATP or Part 135 jet checkride with no medical.
 
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flyingron said:
How should that happen? If a CFI allows that to happen he is reckless and dangerous.
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Cannot find the thread now, but around eight months ago there was the Private student who posted a video of him and his instructor being "surprised" by VFR into IMC. when they climbed into an obviously low ceiling. The OP tried to blame it on an inaccurate AWOS rather than admitting neither of them were paying attention to where they were going.
 
Somehow the FAA has determined that while you have to BE a commercial or ATP to instruct (other than Sport Pilot), that you’re not exercising privileges at that level.
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Actually, I'm not sure they've made that determination. It's only required to hold a commercial/ATP to obtain an instructor certificate. In order to use it, you only need a pilot (no level specified) certificate for what you're teaching in.
 
flyingron said:
Actually, I'm not sure they've made that determination. It's only required to hold a commercial/ATP to obtain an instructor certificate. In order to use it, you only need a pilot (no level specified) certificate for what you're teaching in.
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Technically you need “the” pilot certificate specified by number...if that pilot certificate is downgraded to a Private Pilot certificate, can you still instruct (other than Sport Pilot)?

no, I’m not recommending a letter to the CC. ;)
 
No, but would surrender of pilot privileges also necessitate surrender of instructor privileges tied to the pilot certificate?

Edit...per 61.195, you have to hold a Commercial or ATP certificate to give instrument training. Category and class training only states that your pilot certificate are good for that category and class.
 
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MauleSkinner said:
No, but would surrender of pilot privileges also necessitate surrender of instructor privileges tied to the pilot certificate?

Edit...per 61.195, you have to hold a Commercial or ATP certificate to give instrument training. Category and class training only states that your pilot certificate are good for that category and class.
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The only reason I can think one would surrender their pilots cert would be if it was about to be revoked, I would imagine the FAA being the FAA, they would just go scorched earth and revoke everything if you angered them to that point, so you would ether surrender your CFI too or it would be revoked.

Academics, don’t you need to be licensed to fly what you instruct in? FAR says you could
be a CPL and CFI, so you could surrender your ATP to a CPL, but not CPL to a PPL without losing the ability to instruct. But that’s a wild guess on a fantasy scenario
 
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