go-around on Cessna150

Peter Ha

Peter Ha

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Hey folks,
I was taught to be "spring-loaded" for go-around on every landing.
Since owning my C150 the dilemma: should I come in with full-flaps or no flaps in case of go-around? I ask because my C150 can slow to crawl on approach with just power and higher AoA. This sets me up for quick go-around without fiddling with the flaps (10deg at a time).
On similar note, I noticed I hardly need to trim like I did in C172 and Piper during training.
 
Why does it matter? You can climb with full flaps, even at max gross.
Peter Ha said:
On similar note, I noticed I hardly need to trim like I did in C172 and Piper during training.
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Think about it... the 150 has less power, less torque and is a much lighter airplane than a 172 or Cherokee/Archer. Naturally it will require less trim. o_O
 
Ryanb said:
Why does it matter? You can climb with full flaps, even at max gross.

Think about it... the 150 has less power, less torque and is a much lighter airplane than a 172 or Cherokee/Archer. Naturally it will require less trim. o_O
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Don't know about the 150, but a Beech skipper will climb about 10 fpm with full flaps on a go around, no good, don't think I'll ever forget to remove flaps again.

Peter, I would land with flaps and practice go arounds with flaps. You should be able and probably can do this without any problem. Nothing wrong with getting an instructor to go with you if you are worried to work through it.
 
PaulS said:
Don't know about the 150, but a Beech skipper will climb about 10 fpm with full flaps on a go around, no good, don't think I'll ever forget to remove flaps again.

Peter, I would land with flaps and practice go arounds with flaps. You should be able and probably can do this without any problem. Nothing wrong with getting an instructor to go with you if you are worried to work through it.
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I’ve flown a 152 at max gross oodles of times, a few of which had a go-around or two. One time specifically was many years ago during my pre-solo checkout with the chief pilot and it was a hot and humid, mid-summer morning. The airplane will climb just fine. It’s not phenomenal by any means but it’s certainly enough to keep you out of the trees. If one is having trouble with go-arounds in various configurations, than some remedial training is needed to work on proper technique.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Sounds like someone needs to get some dual in a glider. :)
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In the flight school we had six of seven accidents over 20 years, especially early on. Every one of those would have been avoided if the pilot had aborted and gone around. There are times to reject an approach.
 
A 150 on a hot day at 3000' ASL is a bad airplane with full flaps and full throttle. One needs to do as the POH says: go full throttle, carb heat off, and get the flaps up to 20° ASAP. At 20 there's lots of lift and a lot less drag. One of the things that terrifies pilots is the sink that happens when they start retracting the flaps. Well, of course it will sink if you don't raise the nose. You're changing the angle of incidence of the wing--reducing it--when you retract flaps. You had to lower the nose when you extended them, right??
 
I may be making an unwarranted assumption from your name...
你的老师怎么说？
What does your instructor say?
 
I did a go around in a 150 with full flaps, close to gross, and 110 degrees. With full power it held altitude but didn’t go up much. Once I milked the first 10 degrees of flaps out it started up so I just continues to milk the flaps up as speed increased until I was back in a normal climb.

Moral of the story was in an emergency you can do a go-around with full flaps but the sooner to start the go-around the better. That was my first lesson on planning a stabilized approach and knowing to divert once we weren’t flying per the plane.
 
Come on Mav, do some of that pilot **** and learn to put the flaps up.
 
The C150 I instructed in, almost 40 years ago, DID NOT like climbing with full flaps. If I remember right full flaps = 40 degrees. A lot of pilots landed with one less setting, 30 degrees? I remember the C152's full flaps setting was less degrees than the C150.
 
You should do some training with a CFI to show you how to conduct go around from a full flaps approach configuration. The procedure is probably prescribed in hour POH. What you want to learn is how to safely retract the flaps GRADUALLY after applying full power for a go around. My primary instructor taught me this early in my training.
 
Ryanb said:
Why does it matter? You can climb with full flaps, even at max gross.
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Depends on density altitude. There should be NO expectation that you can climb with flaps in a C150. The book even advises that climb with only 10° of flaps may be marginal.
 
So... if I'm reading this right, you're flying a no flap approach on the off chance you have to make a go around and it's easier for you to not have to deal with all that flap raising procedure.
That makes no sense at all.
Being "spring loaded" for a go around while flying with your instructor was training so you are ready for it and learn and practice the procedures.
In most normal flying you approach and land with full flaps, unless under special conditions. In this case either flaps 30 or 40 would be just fine for you and your 150.
I learned in a Cessna 150 and always landed with flaps 40, I also taught in 152's.
That being said, you and others should practice landing at times with less than full flaps or with zero flaps.
 
Maybe you should stay spring loaded to takeoff and stay on the ground?

ok, sarcasm aside, not using the tools at hand because it might be more work later makes no more sense than my sarcastic remark. You should be spring loaded to pull the flaps up in stages if a go round is necessary.
 
ktup-flyer said:
.......This is basic ppl stuff.
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so is this because of a momentary flap switch...you have to hold it up the whole time to keep the flaps in motion coming up?
I think some of them have switches that lock in the up position and you have to hold for 'down', others are the opposite...and that can be awkward so if that is the case I understand the question....
Most (but not all) of the cessnas I've had the pleasure of flying had the notched switch gate....so on T&G or go-around it's really know more than slap the switch up, hold full throttle/carb heat off, then just make sure they go up evenly and fully while maintaining control....
I don't care for the momentary switches
 
Brad W said:
so is this because of a momentary flap switch...you have to hold it up the whole time to keep the flaps in motion coming up?
I think some of them have switches that lock in the up position and you have to hold for 'down', others are the opposite...and that can be awkward so if that is the case I understand the question....
Most (but not all) of the cessnas I've had the pleasure of flying had the notched switch gate....so on T&G or go-around it's really know more than slap the switch up, hold full throttle/carb heat off, then just make sure they go up evenly and fully while maintaining control....
I don't care for the momentary switches
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There were three different versions of flap actuators, and they required different switches. The first used a plain jackscrew with a clutch that would slip when the actuator reached the ends of its travel. That system required a switch sprung both ways back to center. The springs inside the switch would break and let the switch stay up or down and the motor would run and the clutch would slip and wear out. There was some shortcoming with the jackscrew that would let the flaps come up too fast--can't remember what that was--failed worm drive or something--so they added a damper cylinder to the thing to limit its travel speed. Then they came out with a ballscrew actuator in later models, around 1970, that had microswitches on the actuator to shut the motor off when the actuator reached its travel limits. That system had a switch that was sprung back up to center but not down (IIRC) so that the flaps couldn't continue to deploy if the pilot let go of the switch. Lots of those have broken springs and are legally unairworthy. The preseclector lever system used that same ballscrew actuator with microswitches at the lever and actuator.

The old plain jackscrew used a light coating of molybdenum grease. The ballscrew used a tiny amount of No. 10 non-paraffinic oil, wiped on with a clean rag. And yet we'd find ballscrews all fouled up with the grease. Does the ball-recirculation stuff no good at all. Or we'd find the ballscrew hosed down good and proper with LPS-2 or something, oil everywhere. The excess grease and/or oil would get into the limit microswitches and mess them up, which is why we often hear complaints of flaps that refuse to extend or retract.

When all else fails.......
 
GaryV said:
I did a go around in a 150 with full flaps, close to gross, and 110 degrees. With full power it held altitude but didn’t go up much. Once I milked the first 10 degrees of flaps out it started up so I just continues to milk the flaps up as speed increased until I was back in a normal climb.

Moral of the story was in an emergency you can do a go-around with full flaps but the sooner to start the go-around the better. That was my first lesson on planning a stabilized approach and knowing to divert once we weren’t flying per the plane.
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I’m pretty sure being able to climb at Gross with full flaps is a requirement for certification of an aircraft. At what rate, I dunno, but they gotta be able to climb. Part of the STC for hanging a 180 horse engine on a 150 horse C172 is limiting Flaps to 30 degrees. Maybe because the engine is heavier but I doubt it. I think it just let’s them raise the Max Gross. Probably wouldn’t sell as many if you didn’t get something for your money like increased Gross. Maybe, just what I read somewhere.
 
The real world answer is "it depends". If you have a 150 pound student and a 150 pound instructor flying a C150 with 1/2 fuel on a nice standard temp day at sea level, then yes it'll climb with full flaps. Bring it up to gross weight and it'll still climb, but not much. Add in a 90 degree day at sea level and it probably won't. Add a 4000' field elevation and it won't even maintain level flight in ground effect with full flaps at speeds close to stall at gross weight on a hot day.

The other factor then is "when" are you initiating the go around? If you are initiating it on final with 50 ft of altitude to play with then it's a non issue, you have altitude you can convert to energy to get you through the bring the flaps up to 20 degrees phase. However, if you are doing a go around from the round out or the flare - good luck with that at gross weight and any significant density altitude.

Being a good pilot is more than just learning by rote and adopting a one size fits all approach. It means really understanding the parameters involved and adjusting the procedures and your technique to match the conditions.
 
Larry Vrooman said:
The real world answer is "it depends". If you have a 150 pound student and a 150 pound instructor flying a C150 with 1/2 fuel on a nice standard temp day at sea level, then yes it'll climb with full flaps. Bring it up to gross weight and it'll still climb, but not much. Add in a 90 degree day at sea level and it probably won't. Add a 4000' field elevation and it won't even maintain level flight in ground effect with full flaps at speeds close to stall at gross weight on a hot day.

The other factor then is "when" are you initiating the go around? If you are initiating it on final with 50 ft of altitude to play with then it's a non issue, you have altitude you can convert to energy to get you through the bring the flaps up to 20 degrees phase. However, if you are doing a go around from the round out or the flare - good luck with that at gross weight and any significant density altitude.

Being a good pilot is more than just learning by rote and adopting a one size fits all approach. It means really understanding the parameters involved and adjusting the procedures and your technique to match the conditions.
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That is great answer.
Incidently, I had to go-around yesterday due to windy condition and unstablized approach at unfamiliar airport. My 150 started porpoising, I immediately initiated a go-around.
 
Anyone that thinks a 150 will climb with full flaps at gross must have been flying much nicer 150's than me. All 3 at my flight school would only maintain altitude at 3k at full throttle/gross weight. What the plane got certified with, a nice fresh motor, professional test pilot, and perfect rigging is not what most 150 trainers are today.
 
G-force said:
Anyone that thinks a 150 will climb with full flaps at gross must have been flying much nicer 150's than me. All 3 at my flight school would only maintain altitude at 3k at full throttle/gross weight. What the plane got certified with, a nice fresh motor, professional test pilot, and perfect rigging is not what most 150 trainers are today.
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Yeah, if taking off dual from KLUK 21R on anything other than a chilly day, one must be ready to turn left soon after leaving the runway, as to avoid a CFIT into Kentucky! And that's only a 350' hill—and with no flaps.
 
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Peter Ha said:
That is great answer.
Incidently, I had to go-around yesterday due to windy condition and unstablized approach at unfamiliar airport. My 150 started porpoising, I immediately initiated a go-around.
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Nice work Peter, don't try to force it down, keep back pressure to keep that nosewheel off the ground until it's ready.
 
champ driver said:
So... if I'm reading this right, you're flying a no flap approach on the off chance you have to make a go around and it's easier for you to not have to deal with all that flap raising procedure.
That makes no sense at all.
Being "spring loaded" for a go around while flying with your instructor was training so you are ready for it and learn and practice the procedures.
In most normal flying you approach and land with full flaps, unless under special conditions. In this case either flaps 30 or 40 would be just fine for you and your 150.
I learned in a Cessna 150 and always landed with flaps 40, I also taught in 152's.
That being said, you and others should practice landing at times with less than full flaps or with zero flaps.
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Yeah on the practice some no flappers every now and then. I did that on a flight review last year. I was thinking I hadn’t done it since PPL training many, many moons ago. It was an adventure. I got it down the second try after a go around on the first. The ‘sight picture’ is very different
 
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champ driver said:
So... if I'm reading this right, you're flying a no flap approach on the off chance you have to make a go around and it's easier for you to not have to deal with all that flap raising procedure.
That makes no sense at all.
Being "spring loaded" for a go around while flying with your instructor was training so you are ready for it and learn and practice the procedures.
In most normal flying you approach and land with full flaps, unless under special conditions. In this case either flaps 30 or 40 would be just fine for you and your 150.
I learned in a Cessna 150 and always landed with flaps 40, I also taught in 152's.
That being said, you and others should practice landing at times with less than full flaps or with zero flaps.
Click to expand...

Yeah on the ‘spring loaded’ thang. In addition to checklists some things have to just be automatic. Done every time. Period, no exceptions. My short final speech is ‘wheels down(sometimes they are welded down), flaps ## degrees, lose ## on go around.
 
luvflyin said:
Yeah on the practice some no flappers every now and then. I did that on a flight review last year. I was thinking I hadn’t done it since PPL training many, many moons ago. It was an adventure. I got it down the second try after a go around on the first. The ‘sight picture’ is very different
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The sight picture is different in terms of where the nose is at relative to the horizon and runway as the pitch angle is different, and the "shape" of the runway is different in a flatter approach.

However, the one constant you have in any approach is the relative motion of the runway during the approach. If your intended landing point is rising in the windshield, you are going to land short. If your intended landing point is falling in the windshield you're going to end up landing long. If your intended landing point remains fixed in the windshield you'll land on that point.

Now... in practice that doesn't take into account the round out, flare and float so pick a point 100' to 200' (depending on the aircraft and approach speed) short of the actual desired *touch down* point and fix that spot in your windshield.

In other words if you want to land at the start of the first runway stripe on rwy 26 at Pearson field, try keeping the runway threshold stripe fixed in your windshield on approach. That's about 115' short of the start of the first stripe. Then adjust as needed based on experience in your aircraft at various approach speeds and head wind conditions to land on the intended spot.

The ability to control the approach angle to keep a spot on the runway fixed in the windshield at a chosen airspeed combined with judging the float at a given flap setting (0 to 40) and headwind condition is all you need to make very precise spot landings.
 
Larry Vrooman said:
The sight picture is different in terms of where the nose is at relative to the horizon and runway as the pitch angle is different, and the "shape" of the runway is different in a flatter approach.

However, the one constant you have in any approach is the relative motion of the runway during the approach. If your intended landing point is rising in the windshield, you are going to land short. If your intended landing point is falling in the windshield you're going to end up landing long. If your intended landing point remains fixed in the windshield you'll land on that point.

Now... in practice that doesn't take into account the round out, flare and float so pick a point 100' to 200' (depending on the aircraft and approach speed) short of the actual desired *touch down* point and fix that spot in your windshield.

In other words if you want to land at the start of the first runway stripe on rwy 26 at Pearson field, try keeping the runway threshold stripe fixed in your windshield on approach. That's about 115' short of the start of the first stripe. Then adjust as needed based on experience in your aircraft at various approach speeds and head wind conditions to land on the intended spot.

The ability to control the approach angle to keep a spot on the runway fixed in the windshield at a chosen airspeed combined with judging the float at a given flap setting (0 to 40) and headwind condition is all you need to make very precise spot landings.
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Yup. The ‘aiming point.’ What you describe is what I do. I usually touch down within a few feet of the stripe. Everything looked so different from the increased deck angle needed with no flaps that I let the airspeed get way to fast. I probably could have made the landing the the first try but I’d have used most of the runway.
 
The certification rules says the plane has to be able to climb out at a given rate either with full flaps *OR* how much they can be retracted in ten seconds.

In a 150, i'd put full power, assure airspeed, and then lock the flap switch up, and start the climb.
 
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