Global warming thwarts helicopter flight

[joycem137]

It is a fascinating topic. I've been reading everything I can on it for about 12 or more years, now. Read "Unstoppable Global Warming...Every 1,500 Years" by Fred Singer.

Here's another interesting read:
http://www.stanford.edu/~moore/Climate_of_Fear.pdf

Hm... I might take a look at "Climate of Fear" later, but to be honest, I'm a bit skeptical of a book written by an economist 15 years ago. If one is looking for information in a field, you tend to talk to/read stuff from people actually in that field, in this case climate scientists. I'd rather read some papers discussing actual science related to climate, rather than someone's political position.

Fred Singer looks, on the surface, to be a much more reputable source of information.

 

[joycem137]

Let it be clear that I'm not aboard the latest version of the liberal "green" bandwagon... despite the obvious diminishing polar ice and other alarming trends in climate, I think we've just been enjoying a fairly cool period on this planet since the last Ice Age, and now the planet is just going through some changes, as it has many times before. I also remember climate experts in the 70s shouting that our emissions would plunge us into another Ice Age by the turn of the century, due to the blocking of solar energy due to smog, etc.

But I do see some merit in at least posing the question: Could humanity's output of gaseous carbon be a contributing factor? We definitely have the potential to do significant global damage, with emissions and all forms of pollution; heaven knows we have made great strides in decimating smaller ecosystems, and they are all interdependent to some degree... so I think the debate is worth having. And building our energy future on a resource that is effectively finite (fossil fuel) is just plain stupid. At some point, we will run out, and have to sit and wait a few million years for more of the stuff... doesn't seem like a good plan to me.

Personally, I think our contribution to global climate change, if any, is minimal... so far. But world population is still growing, average lifespan is increasing, and even the Third World is demanding more and more resources of every kind. Meanwhile, if there comes a winter or two with no ice at either pole, major ocean currents could shut down... at which time, we are basically screwed. That, more than any part of the climate change scenario, scares the bejeezus out of me. Still not convinced it's our fault, not by a long shot, but it's a very serious problem. We need to do more about that than argue about whether climate change data is real, or whose fault it is.

"The Environment" is worth caring about even if the only species one cares about is homo sapiens... the idea that our sheer cleverness and techno-power will guarantee our survival (because we are not part of the system like any organism) is pure hubris, IMHO. We are literally in the same boat as trees and cockroaches and all the rest.

There's a lot of scary stuff that can/probably will happen as a result of the ongoing climate change, but to be honest, I think people overplay it a bit. I imagine there'll be big changes in the way we have to live as a society, but it will happen organically, and we'll adapt. Might be lots of famine and war and such, but that's been going on forever.

If the scientific minority of folks like Fred Singer are right and this is a purely natural change, it might be interesting to investigate ways we could affect it and stop things before it gets too bad. I've been hearing about the arctic ice situation for ages, and it sounds like the most pessimistic climate scientists have been overly optimistic about how quickly that's shrinking. And when that happens... oh crap, it's going to be fun.

I'll be keeping my eyes open this summer to watch what happens with that.

 

[Threefingeredjack]

The strong winds associated with this system made for an interesting flight to IA in a 60-70 kt helicopter. He said at one point he was passed by a tractor!

I know his pain. My first tour in Alaska I was flying in winter in a 90 kt bird. (HH52A) Made for, ummmmm, interesting times.

 

[Geico266]

Let it be clear that I'm not aboard the latest version of the liberal "green" bandwagon... despite the obvious diminishing polar ice and other alarming trends in climate, I think we've just been enjoying a fairly cool period on this planet since the last Ice Age, and now the planet is just going through some changes, as it has many times before. I also remember climate experts in the 70s shouting that our emissions would plunge us into another Ice Age by the turn of the century, due to the blocking of solar energy due to smog, etc.

But I do see some merit in at least posing the question: Could humanity's output of gaseous carbon be a contributing factor? We definitely have the potential to do significant global damage, with emissions and all forms of pollution; heaven knows we have made great strides in decimating smaller ecosystems, and they are all interdependent to some degree... so I think the debate is worth having. And building our energy future on a resource that is effectively finite (fossil fuel) is just plain stupid. At some point, we will run out, and have to sit and wait a few million years for more of the stuff... doesn't seem like a good plan to me.

Personally, I think our contribution to global climate change, if any, is minimal... so far. But world population is still growing, average lifespan is increasing, and even the Third World is demanding more and more resources of every kind. Meanwhile, if there comes a winter or two with no ice at either pole, major ocean currents could shut down... at which time, we are basically screwed. That, more than any part of the climate change scenario, scares the bejeezus out of me. Still not convinced it's our fault, not by a long shot, but it's a very serious problem. We need to do more about that than argue about whether climate change data is real, or whose fault it is.

"The Environment" is worth caring about even if the only species one cares about is homo sapiens... the idea that our sheer cleverness and techno-power will guarantee our survival (because we are not part of the system like any organism) is pure hubris, IMHO. We are literally in the same boat as trees and cockroaches and all the rest.

The problem is the left has already deemed this as fact. No more discussion. Which is wrong. Science is never settled, the earth was deemed flat by the world's best scientific minds at one point in time. How'd that work out? I could go on for days with examples of
scientists getting it wrong, but you get the point.

Anyone that claims science is settled on any subject simply doesn't under that stand science is constantly evolving based on data and peer review scrutiny.

 

[Geico266]

There's a lot of scary stuff that can/probably will happen as a result of the ongoing climate change, but to be honest, I think people overplay it a bit. I imagine there'll be big changes in the way we have to live as a society, but it will happen organically, and we'll adapt. Might be lots of famine and war and such, but that's been going on forever.

If the scientific minority of folks like Fred Singer are right and this is a purely natural change, it might be interesting to investigate ways we could affect it and stop things before it gets too bad. I've been hearing about the arctic ice situation for ages, and it sounds like the most pessimistic climate scientists have been overly optimistic about how quickly that's shrinking. And when that happens... oh crap, it's going to be fun.

I'll be keeping my eyes open this summer to watch what happens with that.

Your post reminds me of the core of what is wrong with MMGW. I'm not trying to single out you, just the attitude that "I'm now aware of my surroundings and since I am aware I can now effect change.". This is the arrogance I spoke of earlier.

We are on a planet hurtling through space at 18,000 MPH on a collision course with objects that could end life as we know it. All of the time rotating precariously around a our source of all energy, a dying star located 8 light mins away that could fart and end life on this planet in milliseconds. Yet, we as "parasites" on earth control the atmosphere and climate with our SUV's only if you can convince me to stop driving mine while you fly your plane. Human arrogance at it's finest.

 

[poadeleted21]

Your post reminds me of the core of what is wrong with MMGW. I'm not trying to single out you, just the attitude that "I'm now aware of my surroundings and since I am aware I can now effect change.". This is the arrogance I spoke of earlier.

We are on a planet hurtling through space at 18,000 MPH on a collision course with objects that could end life as we know it. All of the time rotating precariously around a our source of all energy, a dying star located 8 light mins away that could fart and end life on this planet in milliseconds. Yet, we as "parasites" on earth control the atmosphere and climate with our SUV's only if you can convince me to stop driving mine while you fly your plane. Human arrogance at it's finest.

We need that like post thingy on here

 

[LDJones]

Hm... I might take a look at "Climate of Fear" later, but to be honest, I'm a bit skeptical of a book written by an economist 15 years ago. If one is looking for information in a field, you tend to talk to/read stuff from people actually in that field, in this case climate scientists. I'd rather read some papers discussing actual science related to climate, rather than someone's political position.

Fred Singer looks, on the surface, to be a much more reputable source of information.

The economics of it all haven't changed in 15 years. He just makes some points that warming isn't necessarily a bad thing.

 

[Jay Honeck]

Guys, any time there are bbbbBILLIONS of dollars being spent annually to "study" something -- anything -- there is going to be corruption. There is also going to be an entire industry of "interested scientists" who spring up all around it.

Here's an interesting article that discusses this phenomenon: http://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybell/2011/08/23/the-alarming-cost-of-climate-change-hysteria/

This isn't unexpected or evil. When the government stated throwing billions at the space program in the 1960s, an entire industry of interested scientists sprang up around that, too. It's called "following the money", and it's hard to blame them for doing so.

Which doesn't mean that we should buy everything they're saying, literally or figuratively. With that kind of money involved, there is enormous pressure to keep the flow alive -- and you're not going to accomplish that by admitting that "Global Climate Change" is beyond our control.

On the weather side, I feel your helicopter buddy's pain. My RV-8A guy in MN still has not been able to test fly the one we're looking at, after getting slammed with 13 inches of snow again.

I can't tell you how glad I am to NOT be in the Upper Midwest this winter.

 

[spiderweb]

Three things:

1) Global warming is real.
2) Man contributes to it.
3) How much man contributes to it is debatable.

 

[LDJones]

Three things:

1) Global warming is real.
2) Man contributes to it.
3) How much man contributes to it is debatable.

1) Yes...for a few hundred years, now. Thankfully.
2) We do generate body heat, so I guess that's not debatable.
3) Definitely.

I guess it's settled!

 

[poadeleted21]

1) Yes...for a few gigabillion years, now. Thankfully.
2) We do generate body heat, so I guess that's not debatable.
3) Definitely.

I guess it's settled!

FTFY!

 

[spiderweb]

1) Yes...for a few hundred years, now. Thankfully.
2) We do generate body heat, so I guess that's not debatable.
3) Definitely.

I guess it's settled!

As to 2), it is far more than that, as I'm sure you know. Of course, refer to my #3.

I suppose my point is this: You enjoy going out with your young son for some ice cream. He doesn't completely finish it, and he throws the paper bowl on the ground. So, you say, "Son, we don't just throw that on the ground--put it in that can over there."

Even if it turns out that humans contribute only a miniscule amount to global warming, why not contribute a similarly miniscule amount of effort to mitigate our contribution? This is the C. S. Lewis argument.

 

[joycem137]

Your post reminds me of the core of what is wrong with MMGW. I'm not trying to single out you, just the attitude that "I'm now aware of my surroundings and since I am aware I can now effect change.". This is the arrogance I spoke of earlier.

We are on a planet hurtling through space at 18,000 MPH on a collision course with objects that could end life as we know it. All of the time rotating precariously around a our source of all energy, a dying star located 8 light mins away that could fart and end life on this planet in milliseconds. Yet, we as "parasites" on earth control the atmosphere and climate with our SUV's only if you can convince me to stop driving mine while you fly your plane. Human arrogance at it's finest.

I'm not sure why my post would remind you of that, because I'm not really sure of the two things being connected. Learning how to effect change in our environment, especially when that environment is harsh or damaging, strikes me not as arrogance, but as intelligence.

It's why we invented weapons for fighting off predators, why we learned to build different kinds of shelters against the environment, why we search the skies for asteroids that could impact the earth, and why, it seems to me, we should learn about how we might be able to keep our climate from screwing us up, if indeed it is going to do so.

Is this really any different? I mean, I'm not sure if calling people parasites or driving/not driving SUVs is going to have any effect. I'll defer to experts on the subject to advise us on what is going on and how to affect it... but the general concept seems sound to me...

 

[MAKG1]

http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/snowfalls-are-now-just-a-thing-of-the-past-724017.html

Yes, it's an article, but the quotes in it are from climate scientists.

*waits for "those were taken out of context" or "those aren't real scientists" excuses*

I said newspapers don't count. Do some real research.

Peer review is critical. It's missing here.

 

[MAKG1]

I know...that's the mantra...unless the "weather" supports the "consensus"...been observing it for some time now.

You have NEVER heard that from me. Not once, and not in any context whatsoever. DO NOT put words in my mouth.

Weather is not climate, and a really hot summer in the US this year, were that to happen, would also say nothing about climate change.

 

[poadeleted21]

You have NEVER heard that from me. Not once, and not in any context whatsoever. DO NOT put words in my mouth.

Weather is not climate, and a really hot summer in the US this year, were that to happen, would also say nothing about climate change.

It's nice to see that the "cause" people are kowtowing to, can't be observed or even understood by mere mortals. Just send the checks for the carbon credits and environmentally friendly light bulbs, trust us.

 

[RotorAndWing]

You have NEVER heard that from me. Not once, and not in any context whatsoever. DO NOT put words in my mouth.

Weather is not climate, and a really hot summer in the US this year, were that to happen, would also say nothing about climate change.

 

[RotorAndWing]

It's nice to see that the "cause" people are kowtowing to, can't be observed or even understood by mere mortals. Just send the checks for the carbon credits and environmentally friendly light bulbs, trust us.

Worked out well for OwlGore and his buddies..........

 

[N801BH]

It's nice to see that the "cause" people are kowtowing to, can't be observed or even understood by mere mortals. Just send the checks for the carbon credits and environmentally friendly light bulbs, trust us.

...........

Just let one massive volcanic eruption happen like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1883_eruption_of_Krakatoa

and the world temp will drop 2.2F in one year... And it released more CO2 and Sulfer Dioxide then all of mankinds internal combustion devices ever. Trees and plants need CO2 to grow and thrive.. Now they are calling CO2 a BAD gas..... Geez....

And the main question is..................

When a volcano erupts and spews out ungodly amounts of greenhouse gasses, who pays for the "Carbon Credits".. ? God ?.


Considering Earth was formed by millions of eruptions I say good ol' mother Earth is doing darn good for herself.

 

[EdFred]

I said newspapers don't count. Do some real research.

Peer review is critical. It's missing here.

You wanted a scientist saying no more winter I found you two saying no more winter. Its like you asking me to bring over Animal House to watch, and when I bring it over on DVD, you claim that's not really the movie because its not on Blu Ray. Its still the same movie. Two climate scientists making the statements. Doesn't matter where it was written, they said it.

 

[Captain]

Like watching 3 year olds explain how a car works.

I've come to find its the scientist who mostly support global warming with their facts and data and its the religious crowd who, by and large, denounce global warming with their ignorance and self importance.

 

[focal_plane]

You wanted a scientist saying no more winter I found you two saying no more winter. Its like you asking me to bring over Animal House to watch, and when I bring it over on DVD, you claim that's not really the movie because its not on Blu Ray. Its still the same movie. Two climate scientists making the statements. Doesn't matter where it was written, they said it.

You're wasting your breath. As the pols, newspapers and other recipients of the wealth tranferred by the doctrine repeatedly pounded into us, "The debate is over, man made global warming is real."

 

[Jay Honeck]

Like watching 3 year olds explain how a car works.

I've come to find its the scientist who mostly support global warming with their facts and data and its the religious crowd who, by and large, denounce global warming with their ignorance and self importance.

I don't think you'll find too many people questioning the data. The earth, on average, has warmed slightly.

The point you, and all the scientists who have latched onto this multi-billion dollar teat is: "Who cares?"

Answer: Very few, outside of the multi-billion dollar MMGW industry. Yet we're all being made to pay for all this pointless hand-wringing.

The earth will warm -- or cool. Or stay the same. And all of the Left's whining is just uber-expensive noise, amounting to...nothing, significant to no one. If we weren't being forced to fund this debacle, it would be truly hilarious.

 

[bbchien]

It's local weather, not climate change.

that having been said, the low (and the huge N/S mass of IFR, that has been parked over the Midwest actually moved WEST overnight. We're AGAIN on the warm side waiting for it to move east again......

 

[poadeleted21]

Like watching 3 year olds explain how a car works.

I've come to find its the scientist who mostly support global warming with their facts and data and its the religious crowd who, by and large, denounce global warming with their ignorance and self importance.

Remember when saccharin was going to kill us off?

 

[focal_plane]

Remember when saccharin was going to kill us off?

Or the current day "no gluten" bandwagon folks have embraced. Sometimes I ask for extra or double gluten and the looks of shock are hilarious.

 

[comanchepilot]

There is no possible way that colder than normal temperatures, when widespread and hanging on for weeks past normal seasonal transitions, are supported by any theory that the climate is warming. it is simply not possible under the laws of physics - if you add energy to a system then the system gets warmer.

My favorite comparison is a pot of water on a stove You turn the heat on, adding energy to the system using the pot as a the proxy for the planet and the water as proxy for the atmosphere. Now, one of the consequences of that is ice forming in a section of the pot. We know intuitively that such is not possible and does not happen in the real world.

This is why the idea that the Earth is still warming is crap.

 

[EdFred]

Like watching 3 year olds explain how a car works.

Or someone figuring out how to taxi off a runway.

 

[Florida Cracker]

Variability can be quantified.

I'll say it again. You haven't the slightest clue what you're talking about. You are confusing weather with climate.

Sorry.

The MMGW money grabbers Always confuse science with weather, every time weather happens.

Hurricane? Global warming.

No hurricanes? Global warming.

Big snow? Proof of global warming.

No snow into January? Global warming.

The cure? TAXES. LOST FREEDOM. CARBON CREDITS (the biggest fraud since stimulus one, two and three).

If the hockey stick fails, throw it away and simply scream MMGW at the top of your lungs and flail about the indignity of having "settled" science(?) questioned by the unwashed.

It is the biggest scam in history, except for Y2K, maybe but that had an expiration day, at least.

 

[LDJones]

Even if it turns out that humans contribute only a miniscule amount to global warming, why not contribute a similarly miniscule amount of effort to mitigate our contribution? This is the C. S. Lewis argument.

You're correct up to a point. At the point the effort required is no longer miniscule, but a radical alteration of lifestyle with no concrete evidence the effort will yield a benefit, I think it's rational to question exerting the effort.

The trash example has an immediate and discernible benefit...a more esthetically pleasing environment in which to live.

 

[LDJones]

Weather is not climate, and a really hot summer in the US this year, were that to happen, would also say nothing about climate change.

We are in complete and total agreement. Unfortunately, we don't get that from the radical greenies when those hot summers arrive.

 

[poadeleted21]

Or the current day "no gluten" bandwagon folks have embraced. Sometimes I ask for extra or double gluten and the looks of shock are hilarious.

AFAIK gluten hasn't been regulated out of existence yet.

saccarin had to carry a warning label about rats and cancer, because of all the "science". then oops, my bad, just kiddin' you can remove the labels.

 

[Captain]

Or someone figuring out how to taxi off a runway.

Yeah. That is funny. Almost as funny as watching a whole forum screw it up!

 

[EdFred]

Yeah. That is funny. Almost as funny as watching a whole forum screw it up!

When "everyone else" has an issue, maybe it's not everyone else that has the issue.