Glider Pilot vs. Private Pilot Skills

[Aceman]

The thing with the second post is, he pointed out that you are professing controversial opinions comparing two topics that you have no expertise in. In other words, you don't know what you don't know at this point in your flying life.

But I specifically stated that had "first impressions" of both planes. The fact that I had 30hrs of training in a powered airplane and about 5hrs of a sailplane should be enough for me to validate the impressions that I gave. Trying to insinuate that I don't have enough flight hours to justify my experience knowing full well it's likely not to change is arguing in bad faith IMO.

But you didn't. You then went on to say "Understanding engines is literally the only variable that one would need to study extra for powered aircraft".

Uh-huh.

Just brainstorming off the top of my head here, these are topics that are necessary to know for powered flight but not gliders (or not as much for gliders):
Takeoff distance/performance
Vy/Vx/will I make it over that obstacle?

Absolutely needed for a glider and even moreso as you can't just gain altitude on a whim if you haven't cleared the obstacle like a powered airplane. Knowing your glide ratio (Vy/Vx) and proper flight envelope is crucial to a glider pilot.

Short field/soft field takeoffs

Same here. Is this an airfield that I can use a winch or an aerotow that uses the front towhook?

More detailed CG/loading - can Uncle Bobby sit up front or in the back? Do we need to put the luggage in the nose compartment or in the back?

This is even more critical as if you don't have enough potential energy then you can quickly stall trying to gain altitude. I'm assuming this is also critical in a powered airplane.

Fuel system

Agreed. Assuming you don't have a self-launched glider.

How much fuel to carry vs range and weight

Agreed.

Other airplane systems - hydraulics, landing gear, air conditioning, heating, electrical, radios, anti/de-ice systems, magnetos, leaning, and what to do in the

Hydraulics/landing gear/electrical/radios etc.. are all applicable in modern gliders. The one I'm buying has hydraulic brakes and electrical retractable landing gear (as well as a FES).

case of failure of any of them.
Other emergencies, like fire. Engine failure - how to restart.

All planes share these issues to one degree or another.

XC navigation (yes, I know some gliders make XC flights. But certainly not to the same extent.)
XC flights across numerous weather systems.

Yea, I'm ordering exactly what you are describing for my glider -- even comes with "best speed to fly" between thermals (which is something a plane doesn't have to worry about).

How to use all the avionics onboard.
Carb icing/induction icing/airframe icing.

Same as above.

ATC communications (same comment as XC nav).

All planes depending on airspace.

How to go around.
How to taxi.

IMO, Going around is actually better than misjudging your speed and not having enough potential energy to land at the proper glide angle and being forced to land out. I'd much rather just go around when the plane starts sinking on final approach or coming in too hot for a proper flare.

Ground operations at busy B, C, D airports.
All the additional preflight and runup checks and so on.

Again, I think this is subjective to the plane/airport you are about to fly at an arbitrary location.

Thanks for all the points you mentioned! I feel that's a MUCH better conversation to have than to just write me off as being an inexperienced troll.

 

[MRC01]

Yeah, with such great tips as "rebuilding at TBO is cheaper than rebuilding at 200 hours past TBO, so rebuild at TBO"... even if it is statistically cheaper, lets just forget about the "free" 200 hours we just got out of the good running/proven engine...

I agree that some of the FAA advice is ill advised, perhaps even counterproductive (if you rebuild a perfectly healthy engine at TBO, your risk for the next 100 hours on a new engine is actually higher than what it was with the old engine).
But don't discard the entire barrel just for 1 bad apple. It's still worth reading because some of it actually is good advice and we can learn what kinds of mistakes pilots are making.

 

[Vance Breese]

The 2nd post proves what I'm seeing.

How?
What are you seeing?
I have found most people on POA to be helpful and generous with their knowledge as evidenced by this thread.
I have found there is always more to learn about aviation and I become more advanced every time I fly.

 

[MRC01]

... But a high percentage of those do it [get a glider rating] just to have it on their certificate and never get serious. They've not seen a reason to get serious. They probably do get some better appreciation of stick and rudder skills which is a good thing of course.
...

On a related note, getting a taildragger endorsement is a good thing for similar reasons. Even if you never fly another taildragger again, it significantly improves takeoffs & landings in any airplane, even with tricycle gear - smoother, more precise and safer.

 

[Dana]

A glider is easier to learn to fly than a powered plane, and the required hours and minimum ages reflect that, but a glider is more difficult to fly well.

 

[MauleSkinner]

A glider is easier to learn to fly than a powered plane, and the required hours and minimum ages reflect that, but a glider is more difficult to fly well.

I would present the argument that an airplane is just as difficult to fly well, but most power pilots don’t see the need to do so.

 

[RussR]

Thank you from someone who didn't have the energy or enthusiasm to create a list (and a good one at that), fearing that someone sticking to a controversial decision will just pick a disqualifier for each item.

Looks like you called that one pretty accurately.

 

[TonyG]

On a related note, getting a taildragger endorsement is a good thing for similar reasons. Even if you never fly another taildragger again, it significantly improves takeoffs & landings in any airplane, even with tricycle gear - smoother, more precise and safer.

Kinda agree here. Sorta.

When students ask my opinion of what kind of flying should they look at going forward, if they really want to improve their skills, I tell them that they should:

1) Get an instrument rating, and use it enough to get proficient.​

2) Learn aerobatics, and figure out how to get access to an appropriate airplane so that they can get proficient (access is the hard part). Much less (maybe no) credit for a positive g only airplane, there's a lot they won't teach you, you'll only get a 1/3 of what you should.​

3) Get a glider rating -- and get proficient in sailplanes.​

I tell them that if they can really get proficient in these areas, they'll have a solid understanding of precision control of the airplane.

I'm betting not everyone will agree, but I also tell them that once they've gotten really proficient, time off doesn't hurt nearly as much as it does when they're working towards proficiency, so they can do these sequentially if they need to.

Funny thing is, tailwheel flying isn't on the list, and my bread and butter is tailwheel instruction. Here's the deal: a proficient instrument rated glider pilot that can do an honest slow roll in a crappy aerobatic airplane (like a 7kcab) will have little to no problems with a tailwheel airplane. Yeah, I get the chicken and egg issue here, that hypothetical pilot would've picked up TW experience along the way, but still.

My two cents,

--Tony G

 

[dbahn]

I got my fake tailwheel endorsement by renting a Cub and getting checked out in it, much like I would have in a C172 that I had never flown. It took an hour or two and I was fully insured to rent the thing and take my mother for a flight in it. When the FAA required an endorsement a few years later it quickly became something of a cult, and I still don't have the endorsement - just lots of hours in them, including my own Cub.

 

[Aceman]

Kinda agree here. Sorta.

When students ask my opinion of what kind of flying should they look at going forward, if they really want to improve their skills, I tell them that they should:

1) Get an instrument rating, and use it enough to get proficient.​

2) Learn aerobatics, and figure out how to get access to an appropriate airplane so that they can get proficient (access is the hard part). Much less (maybe no) credit for a positive g only airplane, there's a lot they won't teach you, you'll only get a 1/3 of what you should.​

3) Get a glider rating -- and get proficient in sailplanes.​

I tell them that if they can really get proficient in these areas, they'll have a solid understanding of precision control of the airplane.

I'm betting not everyone will agree, but I also tell them that once they've gotten really proficient, time off doesn't hurt nearly as much as it does when they're working towards proficiency, so they can do these sequentially if they need to.

Funny thing is, tailwheel flying isn't on the list, and my bread and butter is tailwheel instruction. Here's the deal: a proficient instrument rated glider pilot that can do an honest slow roll in a crappy aerobatic airplane (like a 7kcab) will have little to no problems with a tailwheel airplane. Yeah, I get the chicken and egg issue here, that hypothetical pilot would've picked up TW experience along the way, but still.

My two cents,

--Tony G

Thanks for your input Tony!

The things you mentioned is exactly what my plan is after getting the glider license.

 

[Domenick]

Damn, I'm out of popcorn.

I'm about to head out to pilot training school for glider pilots. I've already taken the written exam and I've trained in powered aircraft before (~30hrs). I'm in love with the glider because it reminds me of a fighter plane and the controls mimic the stick-n-rudder that I prefer to own when I finally do own my a glider.

How many hours do you have as PIC in a fighter?

I am not but I've passed both written tests and I have 30hrs in powered flight and about 3hrs glider.

@Mr. Kruger, 3 hrs in a glider and passing the written makes you an expert?

(In all honesty, I must admit I somewhat suffered from Dunning Kruger syndrome in my youth.)

I'm not sure why some here are getting triggered by the post and my comments. I'm only expressing my experience with both planes and my studying of both platforms -- even if it's not 1000s of hours. I don't feel I need to have been doing both for several years in order to make a personal opinion of my own experience.

Did you know, "triggered" is itself a trigger word?

Welcome to the forum. If you stick around, I suspect you will be a gift that keeps on giving. I will now look up "Dunning Kruger" and try to find the twist or not to twist before the nut online controversy. I've done it both ways without thinking too much about it, and my house has yet to burn down.

 

[Aceman]

How many hours do you have as PIC in a fighter?

When I mention it reminds me of a fighter, I was speaking in terms of shape and the stick-n-rudder controls. Not about the flight characteristics. Sorry if I misled by my statement.

@Mr. Kruger, 3 hrs in a glider and passing the written makes you an expert?

I never professed to be an expert. I'm just going off of my experience (limited) with both airplanes.

Welcome to the forum.

Thanks!

 

[Lindberg]

I never professed to be an expert. I'm just going off of my experience (limited) with both airplanes.

Gliders aren't airplanes.

 

[brcase]

The thing with the second post is, he pointed out that you are professing controversial opinions comparing two topics that you have no expertise in. In other words, you don't know what you don't know at this point in your flying life.

Russ I actually like the list you posted, Just adding some of the other side of the coin to it
Power vs Glider.

Power plane>>>> Glider

Takeoff distance/performance >>>> Cable Rope lengths required, TO distance/performance required (there are no performance charts for Towplane/Glider combinations)

Vy/Vx/will I make it over that obstacle? >>>> Best thermal ling Speed (minimum Sink), Best Glide speed for Distance, Best glide speed for fastest speed(cross country)

Short field/soft field takeoffs >>>> Off airport landings, Non-paved surfaces, Evaluating from the air.
More detailed CG/loading - can Uncle Bobby sit up front or in the back? Do we need to put the luggage in the nose compartment or in the back? >>>> does glider perform/handle better at 40% CG or 25%CG, How much water ballast should I put in the tail tank, Does water ballast change the CG? Do I need Nose Ballast weights.

Fuel system >>>> Water system, Relief system, Oxygen system, Battery Power
How much fuel to carry vs range and weight >>>> How much water ballast to carry, Range, weight, speed.

Other airplane systems hydraulics, landing gear, air conditioning, heating, electrical, radios, anti/de-ice systems, magnetos, leaning, and what to do in the case of failure of any of them. >>> My glider has Hydraulic Brakes, Venting systems/Solar heating system, Solar Panels, Radios, Spoilers, Varios, Tranponder, Collision Avoidance system (FLARM) 2 flight computers. programmable Variometers. drinking Water, Ballast water with Dump systems, positive and negative flaps.

Other emergencies, like fire. Engine failure >>>>how to restart.>Fire is unlikely, but Launching failures,rope/cable brakes, Electrical power Failures, Water system failures,

XC navigation (yes, I know some gliders make XC flights. But certainly not to the same extent.)>>>> over 3/4 of my flights meet ATP Definition of a cross country flight. I just don't typically land since I usually don't have an easy way to launch again at a remote airport

XC flights across numerous weather systems.>>>>>> Just different weather systems, totally Blue, to totally overcast, quite a bit of flying avoiding and in the vicinity of thunderstorms. Wave, Ridge, Thermal Flying, Smoke

How to use all the avionics onboard.>>>>>My glider has quite bit more avionics that a fair number of airplanes I Fly. some Cubs/T-Craft don't even have an electrical system.

Carb icing/induction icing/airframe icing. >>>>>> I Have had airframe icing from precipitation

ATC communications (same comment as XC nav). >>>>>> I fly with some regularity in Class C and D airspace, Occasionlly in Class A or a Wave window.

How to go around.>>>>> I have done that to, Aborted a landing (10ft AGL) on a Ridge to land at the better airstrip in the Valley below.

How to taxi.>>>>> Turning, Curved Take off, Have Taxied from the runway to the tie down spot, but don't recommend it after I had a brake failure once while doing it.

Ground operations at busy B, C, D airports. >>>>> I Don't do B, but have done C and D, much more complex to coordinate ground operations

All the additional preflight and runup checks and so on>>>>>> parachute, water system, Oxygen systems, Radios, Relief system, Canopy Jetison systems. coming back to land and fix that drinking tube you are sitting on is expensive. Also many airplanes the wings are assembled before flight so preflight is extra important to make sure all the required pins and locks are in place and assembled properly.

 

[RussR]

Russ I actually like the list you posted, Just adding some of the other side of the coin to it
Power vs Glider.

Power plane>>>> Glider

Takeoff distance/performance >>>> Cable Rope lengths required, TO distance/performance required (there are no performance charts for Towplane/Glider combinations)

Vy/Vx/will I make it over that obstacle? >>>> Best thermal ling Speed (minimum Sink), Best Glide speed for Distance, Best glide speed for fastest speed(cross country)

Short field/soft field takeoffs >>>> Off airport landings, Non-paved surfaces, Evaluating from the air.
More detailed CG/loading - can Uncle Bobby sit up front or in the back? Do we need to put the luggage in the nose compartment or in the back? >>>> does glider perform/handle better at 40% CG or 25%CG, How much water ballast should I put in the tail tank, Does water ballast change the CG? Do I need Nose Ballast weights.

Fuel system >>>> Water system, Relief system, Oxygen system, Battery Power
How much fuel to carry vs range and weight >>>> How much water ballast to carry, Range, weight, speed.

Other airplane systems hydraulics, landing gear, air conditioning, heating, electrical, radios, anti/de-ice systems, magnetos, leaning, and what to do in the case of failure of any of them. >>> My glider has Hydraulic Brakes, Venting systems/Solar heating system, Solar Panels, Radios, Spoilers, Varios, Tranponder, Collision Avoidance system (FLARM) 2 flight computers. programmable Variometers. drinking Water, Ballast water with Dump systems, positive and negative flaps.

Other emergencies, like fire. Engine failure >>>>how to restart.>Fire is unlikely, but Launching failures,rope/cable brakes, Electrical power Failures, Water system failures,

XC navigation (yes, I know some gliders make XC flights. But certainly not to the same extent.)>>>> over 3/4 of my flights meet ATP Definition of a cross country flight. I just don't typically land since I usually don't have an easy way to launch again at a remote airport

XC flights across numerous weather systems.>>>>>> Just different weather systems, totally Blue, to totally overcast, quite a bit of flying avoiding and in the vicinity of thunderstorms. Wave, Ridge, Thermal Flying, Smoke

How to use all the avionics onboard.>>>>>My glider has quite bit more avionics that a fair number of airplanes I Fly. some Cubs/T-Craft don't even have an electrical system.

Carb icing/induction icing/airframe icing. >>>>>> I Have had airframe icing from precipitation

ATC communications (same comment as XC nav). >>>>>> I fly with some regularity in Class C and D airspace, Occasionlly in Class A or a Wave window.

How to go around.>>>>> I have done that to, Aborted a landing (10ft AGL) on a Ridge to land at the better airstrip in the Valley below.

How to taxi.>>>>> Turning, Curved Take off, Have Taxied from the runway to the tie down spot, but don't recommend it after I had a brake failure once while doing it.

Ground operations at busy B, C, D airports. >>>>> I Don't do B, but have done C and D, much more complex to coordinate ground operations

All the additional preflight and runup checks and so on>>>>>> parachute, water system, Oxygen systems, Radios, Relief system, Canopy Jetison systems. coming back to land and fix that drinking tube you are sitting on is expensive. Also many airplanes the wings are assembled before flight so preflight is extra important to make sure all the required pins and locks are in place and assembled properly.

Good list as well. Which actually kind of proves the point, there is certainly enough different between gliders and airplanes that it's not just "Understanding engines is literally the only variable that one would need to study extra for powered aircraft."

 

[Aceman]

Gliders aren't airplanes.

Ouch. So an airplane's definition must satisfy having a motor? So what would we call self-launched gliders?

 

[Aceman]

Good list as well. Which actually kind of proves the point, there is certainly enough different between gliders and airplanes that it's not just "Understanding engines is literally the only variable that one would need to study extra for powered aircraft."

Well, to be fair, there are a lot of things about the glider that don't overlap the airplane as well.

In any case, as other's have mentioned, I'm mainly talking about the stick-n-rudder skills. Most here agree that flying a glider does require more "flying skills" than an airplane.

 

[Lindberg]

Ouch. So an airplane's definition must satisfy having a motor? So what would we call self-launched gliders?

You passed both written tests, right? You tell me.

 

[Vance Breese]

Ouch. So an airplane's definition must satisfy having a motor? So what would we call self-launched gliders?

According to the Federal Aviation Regulations under Definitions and Abbreviations:

Airplane means an engine-driven fixed wing aircraft heavier than air, that is supported in flight by the dynamic reaction of the air against its wings.

Glider means a heavier-than- air aircraft that is supported in flight by the dynamic reaction of the air against its lifting surfaces and whose free flight does not depend principally upon an engine.

I recommend you purchase a current copy of the FAR/AIM.

 

[dbahn]

Ouch. So an airplane's definition must satisfy having a motor? So what would we call self-launched gliders?

I call a self launch glider a motorized glider or simply a motor glider. The FAA calls it a glider. People can just call it a bird if they want to, but the FAA makes the rules.

 

[Witmo]

Well, to be fair, there are a lot of things about the glider that don't overlap the airplane as well.

In any case, as other's have mentioned, I'm mainly talking about the stick-n-rudder skills. Most here agree that flying a glider does require more "flying skills" than an airplane.

I wouldn't exactly say that glider flying requires more "flying skills." What it does require is a different set of cognitive skills." The glider pilot, especially on a cross country, has to constantly be thinking of his altitude, the winds, and lift potential in order to reach his goal. The power pilot really only has to keep track of the amount of fuel in his tank and the effect wind has on his range. The stick and rudder skills are very similar which is why pilots that start out in gliders are generally regarded as having good "flying skills" by CFIs giving power transition training to glider pilots. As mentioned earlier, the transitioning glider pilot spends a significant portion of his power transition training in learning the FARs, night flying, and systems that aren't present in most gliders.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

I don’t think it’s possible for it to be “harder”. Different, absolutely. That’s why there are different certification requirements. It’s neat because of how it is…

Glider pilots untrained in airplanes would probably eat ****. Same is true in the other direction I would bet.

My experience is rotard and airplane. Very different. Neither one is hard, unless you want to be the best. Then both are very difficult.

I’m sure that experience would extrapolate well to gliders. I think I could solo a glider in an afternoon and have the paper in my pocket after just a few days. If I want to win a cross country race it will take years of effort at mastering the skills required.

At thirty five hours of total experience and no certification in your pocket you have no idea how little you know. One of the most enjoyable aspects of aviation is the journey of learning and the community. Welcome to the forum and I look forward to your continued contribution.

 

[Pinecone]

Ouch. So an airplane's definition must satisfy having a motor? So what would we call self-launched gliders?

By FAA, Airplanes are powered. Category Airplane as is Airplane Single Engine Land.

Gliders ARE Aircraft.

 

[Salty]

rotard

QFT

 

[Lindberg]

I think I could solo a glider in an afternoon and have the paper in my pocket after just a few days.

I'd really like to see that.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

I'd really like to see that.

You make it sound like something special.

Accelerated Glider Certificate — Midwest Corporate Air, Inc.

midwestcorporateair.com

Checkride on day four….

not many days left if you don’t solo quick

But I don’t know what I don’t know. Perhaps it would take two days.

 

[brcase]

Ouch. So an airplane's definition must satisfy having a motor? So what would we call self-launched gliders?

I don't recall where, but I have seen criteria for an aircraft to be classified as a glider. I believe it had to do mostly with wing loading but Aspect ratio may have also been part of the equation.

Brian

 

[dbahn]

I'd really like to see that.

I would, too. While it's technically do-able, the practicality is that you need the right availability of instructor, glider and tow pilot to move that quickly. In most operations, you're the only one that isn't very busy.

 

[Salty]

In my club you had to assist other flights for more hours than you got to log.

 

[Lindberg]

You make it sound like something special.

Accelerated Glider Certificate — Midwest Corporate Air, Inc.

midwestcorporateair.com

Checkride on day four….

not many days left if you don’t solo quick

But I don’t know what I don’t know. Perhaps it would take two days.

I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm sure it has been done. But it's certainly something special.

Your example is for training in self-launch motor gliders. They're gliders, technically. You'd have a glider rating after that, but you wouldn't be able to aerotow or winch launch without additional training and endorsements. And in my experience, which is admittedly limited, the tow is the hardest thing for most power pilots to master.

I definitely want to use their $450 DPE though.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm sure it has been done. But it's certainly something special.

Your example is for training in self-launch motor gliders. They're gliders, technically. You'd have a glider rating after that, but you wouldn't be able to aerotow or winch launch without additional training and endorsements. And in my experience, which is admittedly limited, the tow is the hardest thing for most power pilots to master.

I definitely want to use their $450 DPE though.

It’s what I found after about 3 seconds of looking. I do have tentative plans to add the glider rating. I’ll let you know how wrong I am when the time comes.

 

[MauleSkinner]

I definitely want to use their $450 DPE though.

Good thing I got my rating when the examiner fee was a bottle of gin.

 

[MauleSkinner]

It’s what I found after about 3 seconds of looking. I do have tentative plans to add the glider rating. I’ll let you know how wrong I am when the time comes.

According to my logbook, it took 6 flights over a period of 6 weeks to get signed off for solo. I’m betting an afternoon would be plenty if you had access.

 

[Lindberg]

It’s what I found after about 3 seconds of looking. I do have tentative plans to add the glider rating. I’ll let you know how wrong I am when the time comes.

No doubt that a good stick could do it. Theoretically, for a private pilot add-on, it could be ready for your check ride after only 14 flights. I towed for a pilot who did all ten of his required solo flights on the day of his first solo.

 

[Silvaire]

Bottom line is that additional experience in another aircraft is not a bad thing but the most important thing is experience and knowledge of the aircraft you are currently flying. That being said there is more to soaring than just gliding back to the airport but those cross country soaring skills aren't going to apply if you're with your family in a Cessna 182. You need to know how to fly a 182, not a Grob 104.

 

[brcase]

I'd really like to see that.

I would, too. While it's technically do-able, the practicality is that you need the right availability of instructor, glider and tow pilot to move that quickly. In most operations, you're the only one that isn't very busy.

It was what I did and I don't think it is that uncommon at the right soaring operation for a Power pilot transitioning to glider. Tailwheel time probably does help.

I soloed the Glider after 4 flights totaling 1 hour of flight time on 9/21/1990 in a Blanik L-13.

To be fair I did have 2 prior glider flights with a very good commercial pilot where I functionally received instruction, but he wasn't an instructor so it wasn't loggable. I think these 2 flights were about 4.5 hrs. total.

I then did 2 solo flights totaling 1 Hour of flight time.

The next day I did two more solo flights in the Blanik for another 1/2 hour.

I then did 8 more solos in the Schweizer 1-26 for another 4 hours. These were good soaring days and I was having trouble talking myself into pulling the spoilers after climbing to 11,000 feet because I needed to log more flights.

The next day I did a recommendation flight in the Blank, since my instructor was going to be my examiner. 1/2 hr.

and then I did 3 Practical test flight in the Blanik with the examiner.

I now had my Private Pilot Glider Rating and with 1.5 hrs and 5 flights of glider instruction logged. and a total 7.6 hours and 16 flights in my logbook.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

 

[dbahn]

It was what I did and I don't think it is that uncommon at the right soaring operation for a Power pilot transitioning to glider.

At Sugarbush we have 6 gliders, 6 or 7 instructors, 4 tow pilots, two Pawnees for towing and a ground crew in the summer and weekends (when the kids aren't in school). Two of the instructors are also tow pilots. Even with that crew we have trouble accommodating everyone who wants to fly and are constantly turning people away, especially on weekends. I think the most tows I've done in a single day is 35 and then I asked for one of the others to do the last few tows, as I was beat, and worried about screwing up.