GlaStar down, Waukesha WI

“We’ve got to climb. I hope to get above the clouds..” last they heard from him.
no instrument rating.
sad. Rip
 
Lotsa fields and soft stuff to land in thereabouts. Really sad. A pity it keeps happening.
 
benyflyguy said:
“We’ve got to climb. I hope to get above the clouds..” last they heard from him.
no instrument rating.
sad. Rip
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Kathryns commenters are reporting the pilot departed KMWC under special VFR. So he had a plan, and the tools.
 
t3chiman said:
Kathryns commenters are reporting the pilot departed KMWC under special VFR. So he had a plan, and the tools.
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Not sure what your point is. If he needed Special VFR to get off the ground what was his plan? Without an IR, what tools did he have if he didn't get to good vmc? At this point, it seems his plan sucked and he didn't have the tools he needed to successfully complete this flight but I'm sure more info will be forthcoming.
 
I wonder what the weather was like 3-6 hours later? What about 5-10 minutes of weather checking on the IPad? I thought they were retired? If so, what’s the hurry??

Sorry, tragically it’s to late for them. Just throwing out the ADM 101 process before contemplating a flight. I do my best to be good at adjusting the plan. It starts with the thought, you really NEVER have to be ANYWHERE.

I know, we’re all aware here.
 
t3chiman said:
Kathryns commenters are reporting the pilot departed KMWC under special VFR. So he had a plan, and the tools.
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Don't you need an instrument rating and be in an IFR capable aircraft to get a special VFR?
It also still requires you to remain clear of clouds.
 
SVFR needs to go away, I think. It seems to give people ideas.
 
Kenny Phillips said:
SVFR needs to go away, I think. It seems to give people ideas.
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I strongly disagree. People are free to not use it if they feel it's dangerous. Doesn't mean it needs to be limited for the rest of us. Having the FAA take away options of ways people can fly generally doesn't sit well with me.

Like any freedom - if not used responsibly can cause damage. Doesn't mean it should be taken away for those that do use it responsibly.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
I strongly disagree. People are free to not use it if they feel it's dangerous. Doesn't mean it needs to be limited for the rest of us. Having the FAA take away options of ways people can fly generally doesn't sit well with me.

Like any freedom - if not used responsibly can cause damage. Doesn't mean it should be taken away for those that do use it responsibly.
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If one has an instrument rating, it's not needed. File, get in the clear, cancel, if you want to fly VFR. And if one does not ... "feeling" if it's dangerous or not means nothing when you screw the pooch.
 
Kenny Phillips said:
If one has an instrument rating, it's not needed. File, get in the clear, cancel, if you want to fly VFR. And if one does not ... "feeling" if it's dangerous or not means nothing when you screw the pooch.
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How about an instrument rated pilot flying an instrument capable airplane that is out of transponder currency to a shop to get it recertified? Seems perfectly safe to me.

Or coming into an airport and the forecast lied to you and it's barely below VFR mins but the airport is class Echo to the surface. So you have to declare an emergency to land without SVFR.

I can think of dozens of situations where SVFR is necessary and safe. Just because you can't doesn't mean it should be outlawed.
 
Some people think SVFR should not be given, and I am not referring to those who have posted here.

I was at Lexington, KY, and wished to fly to Cincinnati, following the big straight divided highway. The ceiling at Cincinnati was above 2,000 feet, and rising. The ceiling at Lexington was just above SVFR minimum, and also rising.

The weather man fudged the report down a hundred feet, taking the number below minimums, to prevent the tower from accepting a SVFR flight plan. I could see the reading on the machine, so knew it was actually legal.

We sat there for two hours until the reading reached 500 feet above the minimum, before he reported that the field met the minimum. His excuse was that the clouds might be lower along the route. With the conditions improving to the north, that was unlikely, and when we finally left, Cincinnati was clear, no clouds at all, and the ceiling rose rapidly as we progressed north.

I had many hours of instrument instruction, but not the check ride. The thought of making a 180 if the clouds lowered did not worry me, and landing on the highway was a very real alternative, back then the traffic was quite light.

I had no intention to try to 'punch through' as the accident pilot seems to have intended.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
How about an instrument rated pilot flying an instrument capable airplane that is out of transponder currency to a shop to get it recertified? Seems perfectly safe to me.
.
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Huh? How does this change things? A transponder is not strictly required for IFR flight, and when you transponder is not within inspection it's not legal for VFR (special or otherwise).
 
The audio from this one is heart wrenching. The guy knows how much trouble he's in.

Svfr is a tool. I have never actually used it, but I'd hate to see it go. It demands a lot of respect. This story should be used to teach private pilots not to take it lightly. This would be a good ASI video. RIP to the pilot & his wife.
 
geezer said:
Some people think SVFR should not be given, and I am not referring to those who have posted here.

I was at Lexington, KY, and wished to fly to Cincinnati, following the big straight divided highway. The ceiling at Cincinnati was above 2,000 feet, and rising. The ceiling at Lexington was just above SVFR minimum, and also rising.

The weather man fudged the report down a hundred feet, taking the number below minimums, to prevent the tower from accepting a SVFR flight plan. I could see the reading on the machine, so knew it was actually legal.

We sat there for two hours until the reading reached 500 feet above the minimum, before he reported that the field met the minimum. His excuse was that the clouds might be lower along the route. With the conditions improving to the north, that was unlikely, and when we finally left, Cincinnati was clear, no clouds at all, and the ceiling rose rapidly as we progressed north.

I had many hours of instrument instruction, but not the check ride. The thought of making a 180 if the clouds lowered did not worry me, and landing on the highway was a very real alternative, back then the traffic was quite light.

I had no intention to try to 'punch through' as the accident pilot seems to have intended.
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There is no Ceiling Minimum for SVFR. There is a Visibilty Minimum.
 
As a VFR pilot I still don’t get this sort of thing. If your plane has an artificial horizon and you get in the clouds, shouldn’t a non instrument rated pilot be able to at least keep it in the air? That’s one instrument telling you everything you really need to know to not die - so it’s not like you even need to keep up an instrument scan. Just ignore your senses and trust the instruments, the body lies - seems like that has been covered in basic flight training.

I was in actual IMC at night with my instructor once. I would never have been able to land in that stuff, but I could hold a heading and altitude, and make standard rate turns. I mean even a VFR moonless night in a rural location is almost the same thing, I’ve had no ground reference before for a while, just black, everywhere. There shouldn’t be much of a difference. I wonder if panic is a big factor. You know to expect loss of horizon at night, but probably did not expect VFR into IMC. I don’t know…
 
Kenny Phillips said:
SVFR needs to go away, I think. It seems to give people ideas.
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SVFR is an invaluable tool for helos. Used it a few times. Plenty of times the airfield can be reporting less than 1000 / 3 but there’s a significant portion of the field in the clear. Whether it be arriving or departing a lot of time can be saved to ask for SVFR vs filing and picking up an IFR. No point in getting vectored way out of your way for IAP for 2 miles vis if you can sneak in SVFR direct the field.
 
Kenny Phillips said:
If one has an instrument rating, it's not needed. File, get in the clear, cancel, if you want to fly VFR. And if one does not ... "feeling" if it's dangerous or not means nothing when you screw the pooch.
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Depends.

I used it once in the past year. The weather slipped to IMC just before I was about to depart. I didn't think it was that bad, plus I was just making a short hop for an Angel Flight, to pick up a patient. It was VFR there and had been VFR here and still looked good to me.

Got the SVFR, took off and was in decent VMC before leaving the Class D airspace at my home airport.

I'm in the Atlanta area, so stopping and filing would have just sucked up time in what looked like, and was, still fairly good weather. I don't scud run. Other than a short hop like this I'm typically flying IFR. I hadn't filed as it was good VFR weather until then and it was a short hop; 16.8 nm apart.



Wayne
 
caverjamie said:
As a VFR pilot I still don’t get this sort of thing. If your plane has an artificial horizon and you get in the clouds, shouldn’t a non instrument rated pilot be able to at least keep it in the air? That’s one instrument telling you everything you really need to know to not die - so it’s not like you even need to keep up an instrument scan. Just ignore your senses and trust the instruments, the body lies - seems like that has been covered in basic flight training.
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I will say this as an instrument rated pilot-- I have never once felt spatial disorientation when flying under the hood or in IMC. I say that not as a brag, but as a source of concern. I have no idea what it feels like. Yet. Someday I may feel it, but I have no idea how I will actually react when I do. I hope it's as simple as you say. But because I have never felt it, when it happens, will it catch me off guard? I hope not. I kind of whish I had experienced it with an instructor in the right seat.
 
PPC1052 said:
I will say this as an instrument rated pilot-- I have never once felt spatial disorientation when flying under the hood or in IMC. I say that not as a brag, but as a source of concern. I have no idea what it feels like. Yet. Someday I may feel it, but I have no idea how I will actually react when I do. I hope it's as simple as you say. But because I have never felt it, when it happens, will it catch me off guard? I hope not. I kind of whish I had experienced it with an instructor in the right seat.
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Get to a Simulator. Take a baseball bat with you. Do this. Now sit down and fly the plane.

 
luvflyin said:
Get to a Simulator. Take a baseball bat with you. Do this. Now sit down and fly the plane.

Click to expand...

That game is evil. I had to do it for my section of a relay in middle school…despite focusing on the spot on the wall I was supposed to go to tag my teammate, I couldn’t run that direction to save my rear. Ended up running a zig-zag path until I finally got my bearings.
 
caverjamie said:
As a VFR pilot I still don’t get this sort of thing. If your plane has an artificial horizon and you get in the clouds, shouldn’t a non instrument rated pilot be able to at least keep it in the air? That’s one instrument telling you everything you really need to know to not die - so it’s not like you even need to keep up an instrument scan. Just ignore your senses and trust the instruments, the body lies - seems like that has been covered in basic flight training.

I was in actual IMC at night with my instructor once. I would never have been able to land in that stuff, but I could hold a heading and altitude, and make standard rate turns. I mean even a VFR moonless night in a rural location is almost the same thing, I’ve had no ground reference before for a while, just black, everywhere. There shouldn’t be much of a difference. I wonder if panic is a big factor. You know to expect loss of horizon at night, but probably did not expect VFR into IMC. I don’t know…
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Your answer is buried within your post. You did it with an instructor, and more importantly, on purpose.

I, too, had very little difficulty under the hood during training. Even unusual attitudes weren’t bad.

Then, about 100 hours into life as a PPL pilot, VFR only, I inadvertently flew from VMC to IMC. Observations:

-you will have at least a brief “oh $&@#” moment when everything goes white and you lose ground reference.

-how quickly you work past the above in my opinion dictates whether you’ll make it out.Panic is your enemy.

-Fortunately for me, both my CFI’s drilled the “level the wings, level the plane, note heading “ into me during my PpL training.

-I did the above, and then took a couple moments to compose myself. In this case, I had those moments as I was quite familiar with the terrain, etc.

-At this point I started a standard-rate turn back towards the way I came. Once established I started scanning my instruments to maintain level flight and eventually exited to clear air.

-my CFI’s also told me that it will seem like an eternity until you are back out-it’s true.

-I was fortunate. Despite hosing the proverbial pooch to get in the mess to begin with, I was able to stay calm and remember what I was taught. Unintentionally going VMC to IMC is absolutely a big deal, and I was fortunate, not good. Don’t underestimate this situation.

If you need more reminders, read the book “the killing zone.”
 
PPC1052 said:
I will say this as an instrument rated pilot-- I have never once felt spatial disorientation when flying under the hood or in IMC. I say that not as a brag, but as a source of concern. I have no idea what it feels like. Yet. Someday I may feel it, but I have no idea how I will actually react when I do. I hope it's as simple as you say. But because I have never felt it, when it happens, will it catch me off guard? I hope not. I kind of whish I had experienced it with an instructor in the right seat.
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Ever be flying along VFR, glance down at your chart or reach for a thermos and then find the aircraft has turned 30 degrees off heading so you rack it around back to the proper heading? No problem with God's horizon to tell you which way is up. Now imagine doing that in the clouds. It's very easy to compromise your sense of up and down, are you turning or not turning, by abrupt control inputs or not believing your instruments. PPLs donning the hood with a CFI and practicing unusual attitudes or making gentle turns, climbs and descents, don't usually lend themselves to experiencing spatial d. When it happens it will be a real challenge to believe your instruments and use them but it's an essential skill needed to save your life. JFK Jr. had quite a bit of instrument training prior to his death. He probably never experienced spatial d in the training environment. I've flown at night over the ocean and the lights of fishing boats off in the distance just look like a continuation of the stars in the sky making you think the horizon is not where it actually is. It messes with your mind if you let it.
 
PPC1052 said:
I will say this as an instrument rated pilot-- I have never once felt spatial disorientation when flying under the hood or in IMC. I say that not as a brag, but as a source of concern. I have no idea what it feels like. Yet. Someday I may feel it, but I have no idea how I will actually react when I do. I hope it's as simple as you say. But because I have never felt it, when it happens, will it catch me off guard? I hope not. I kind of whish I had experienced it with an instructor in the right seat.
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I was "lucky" enough to try the FAA's spatial disorientation simulator. In less than a minute, you don't know up from down. I don't know if it's still available, and I do know that some folks shouldn't eat before trying it.
 
Yep. Always easy to make these observations in front of a keyboard.

Hit IMC on a VFR departure when there's a little chop in the air. Maybe the clouds are creating what you think should be either the horizon or you think the bases are level. Then things go white. You're changing your view to a 100% instrument scan but still glancing outside to see if you're back in VMC. All of a sudden, somehow the AI is showing a 30 degree right climbing turn. But that can't be right because you KNOW you're straight and level. Then try to figure out if the AI is wrong by looking at the TC, altimeter and airspeed. While you're still glancing outside hoping to see something. Next thing you know you've got a screen full of earth in front of you.

I've probably got about 200 of actual. Most in cruise. Plenty of approaches and departures in actual too. The one I think is most dangerous is departing VFR where it's marginal but CAVU is just a couple miles away. So you figure that all you got to do is stay VMC until you get clear...
 
Witmo said:
Ever be flying along VFR, glance down at your chart or reach for a thermos and then find the aircraft has turned 30 degrees off heading so you rack it around back to the proper heading? No problem with God's horizon to tell you which way is up. Now imagine doing that in the clouds. It's very easy to compromise your sense of up and down, are you turning or not turning, by abrupt control inputs or not believing your instruments. PPLs donning the hood with a CFI and practicing unusual attitudes or making gentle turns, climbs and descents, don't usually lend themselves to experiencing spatial d. When it happens it will be a real challenge to believe your instruments and use them but it's an essential skill needed to save your life. JFK Jr. had quite a bit of instrument training prior to his death. He probably never experienced spatial d in the training environment. I've flown at night over the ocean and the lights of fishing boats off in the distance just look like a continuation of the stars in the sky making you think the horizon is not where it actually is. It messes with your mind if you let it.
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I think you missed my point.
 
This is his panel. No AI. He was partial panel right from the start. $1500 for a G5 and he would be alive today. Why does everyone want a big moving map in the center of their six pack?

N628RS-Glastar-Reimer-IMG_5831.jpg
 
Ed Haywood said:
This is his panel. No AI. He was partial panel right from the start. $1500 for a G5 and he would be alive today. Why does everyone want a big moving map in the center of their six pack?
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Sure he wasn't using it set up like this?
ekp-v.jpg
 
That's an acceptable panel for a VFR plane.

No way I'd think about flying IFR with that panel. A secondary attitude indicator would be a minimum for me on that panel.
 
donjohnston said:
Yep. Always easy to make these observations in front of a keyboard.

Hit IMC on a VFR departure when there's a little chop in the air. Maybe the clouds are creating what you think should be either the horizon or you think the bases are level. Then things go white. You're changing your view to a 100% instrument scan but still glancing outside to see if you're back in VMC. All of a sudden, somehow the AI is showing a 30 degree right climbing turn. But that can't be right because you KNOW you're straight and level. Then try to figure out if the AI is wrong by looking at the TC, altimeter and airspeed. While you're still glancing outside hoping to see something. Next thing you know you've got a screen full of earth in front of you.

I've probably got about 200 of actual. Most in cruise. Plenty of approaches and departures in actual too. The one I think is most dangerous is departing VFR where it's marginal but CAVU is just a couple miles away. So you figure that all you got to do is stay VMC until you get clear...
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I tell this story all the time. My first lesson in recent times of my IFR rating was in IMC. 1000 OVC with layers. My instructor filed a flight plan snd away we went. We launched and on climb its busy. I’m behind already. Hit IMC Changing frequencies. Contacting approach and get cleared to my first fix and I start my turn. I get turned and felt like I was in a level wing climb. But I’m fighting the leans hard. Finally I feel right and my CFI says quietly, “hey Phil don’t want to die in a death spiral today” i was turning to the right in about 45 deg bank increasing. Level the wings and I thought I was going to fall out of the left door. Sobering experience. I have since learned. Fortunately I had a CFI who would call me on a bad day and ask what I’m doing, say “let go. It’s going to be crappy out today.” Got a lot of IMC in my training.
For me the worst of the leans are when I was task saturated and was probably trying to rely on my senses more than my scan. Still get them but more predictable times now.
 
I got my IR at DPA under the ORD class B. When I finally got the ticket and started regular flying, I was almost bored flying my first actual approach using the SDF into Tullahoma, TN.
 
Interesting discussion, stories like this one make me question my own capability in a situation like that, but instill a healthy dose of fear to hopefully avoid it since I’m not instrument rated. But worst case the plane I fly has the blue LVL button on the autopilot control, kind of like a life insurance plan I suppose.
 
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