glass panel install

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pipernd

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HI all.

I'm trying to get an idea of the costs associated with upgrading an analog/gyro based/steam instrument panel to a glass cockpit.

I have a line on a very solid aircraft that has high engine time and would need a major overhaul almost immediately. Those costs are somewhat known to me. What I want to know is, what if I want to completely modernize the avionics with a glass panel, what kind of price range should I be expecting? I understand there are many variable so let's assume I don't need the Rolls-Royce but don't want the Nissan Versa either. I also understand it's better to buy a plane with the right avionics already installed but the price point on this plane is such that it might be worth the added cost after purchase.

Thanks in advance. . .
 
What type of plane first of all?

I think you will find it will be less expensive to purchase a plane that already has the upgrades you are looking for.
 
pipernd said:
HI all.

I'm trying to get an idea of the costs associated with upgrading an analog/gyro based/steam instrument panel to a glass cockpit.

I have a line on a very solid aircraft that has high engine time and would need a major overhaul almost immediately. Those costs are somewhat known to me. What I want to know is, what if I want to completely modernize the avionics with a glass panel, what kind of price range should I be expecting? I understand there are many variable so let's assume I don't need the Rolls-Royce but don't want the Nissan Versa either. I also understand it's better to buy a plane with the right avionics already installed but the price point on this plane is such that it might be worth the added cost after purchase.

Thanks in advance. . .
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Not enough information.

#1. You need to know the make and model of the airplane.
#2. You need to ask an avionics shop using the type airplane from #1



Quotes for a Cessna 172, Piper PA-46, or a KingAir B200 will be wildly different.
 
Assuming an uncomplicated installation in a certified aircraft, an Aspen is probably in the 11-13 AMU range. A Garmin is at least 5 AMU more.

If it's an experimental then acquisition is at least 5 AMU cheaper.

If it's one of those aircraft that cost $100 to start the engine then add 5 AMU.

If a WAAS gps is needed then add 10 AMU minimum.

IF ADS-B is needed then add 5 AMU but you might get by a little cheaper with some of Aspen's options.

1 AMU = $1,000
 
Installing a G500 setup into my Diamond DA20C1, WAAS upgrade for the GNS430, was bout $27k.
 
Our club has been investigating an upgrade for the Skylane.

When we did it for the Bonanza, our results found that the labor to install was about 50%-ish of the product cost. We also budgeted $3,000 additional for a new panel overlay, USB power ports, and some other misc. items.

So take the MSRP of the desired items, multiply by 1.5 or 1.6, add a fudge factor budget, and you should be pretty close to what you need to make your dream panel happen.
 
Comanche? Think about 1/2 the value of the plane for the Avionics upgrade, and then another 1/2 the value for the overhaul your considering.

So if you're price + the value of the plane seems like a deal, go for it.

But who's kidding who? A certified glass installation is gonna be more than a little old engine overhaul.
 
That sounds about right. . . .then add paint and interior and we're all set!
 
Basically boils down to:

What flight display system?

What GPS/COM/NAV Navigators?

What Audio Control System?

What transponder & ADS-B System?

What autopilot

What engine monitor if not integrated into the flight display system


Very few old aircraft are truly "all glass" and most are a combination.
 
There's a very cherry 260 for sale two hangars up from mine. New panel, Aspen, 430w, stec a/p, new paint, leather interior, all ad's including the tail c/w. 500 smoh, not sure about ttaf. May even have ads-b out, he's that type of guy. Meticulously maintained. Don't know about any damage history. A very nice airplane.

He was asking $100k, but has reconsidered and will talk offers. In todays market, airplanes sell for the cost of engines and avionics, the airframes are just about free.
 
Chip Sylverne said:
There's a very cherry 260 for sale two hangars up from mine. New panel, Aspen, 430w, stec a/p, new paint, leather interior, all ad's including the tail c/w. 500 smoh, not sure about ttaf. May even have ads-b out, he's that type of guy. Meticulously maintained. Don't know about any damage history. A very nice airplane.

He was asking $100k, but has reconsidered and will talk offers. In todays market, airplanes sell for the cost of engines and avionics, the airframes are just about free.
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is this listed anywhere? I'd be interested in taking a look at what he has and juxtapose what I am looking at.
 
pipernd said:
it does.
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If the autopilot is more than a wing leveler:

Add 3 AMU for GPSS plus installation for the Garmin

Aspen has GPSS built in but the installation can be tricky. Do not use an inexperienced shop to connect an Aspen to an analogue Century autopilot. I don't know if the STEC's are any better.
 
Clark1961 said:
If the autopilot is more than a wing leveler:

Add 3 AMU for GPSS plus installation for the Garmin

Aspen has GPSS built in but the installation can be tricky. Do not use an inexperienced shop to connect an Aspen to an analogue Century autopilot. I don't know if the STEC's are any better.
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no, it's all axis. Should've included that initially. Thanks for the help.
 
pipernd said:
is this listed anywhere? I'd be interested in taking a look at what he has and juxtapose what I am looking at.
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He had it up at TAP, but the listing expired. Saw his A&P last week, he mentioned it was still for sale. I'll see if I can get you a phone # or something this weekend if you're serious.
 
There really is nothing you can do with a glass panel that you cant do with a traditional 6 pack. But its your money, you decide. From what Ive heard, it runs about 20k. But each install is different. Only way to know for sure is get a quote from an Avionics shop.
 
coloradobluesky said:
There really is nothing you can do with a glass panel that you cant do with a traditional 6 pack. But its your money, you decide. From what Ive heard, it runs about 20k. But each install is different. Only way to know for sure is get a quote from an Avionics shop.
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I think you'll find RNAV approaches a bit tough without an IFR GPS on board.
 
Look ma, no glass! And LNAV approaches anytime.

(GNS430 coupled to a silly old round CDI)

But I must say, glass is cool as crap!
 

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The GNS 430 counts as glass in and of itself, if you ask me. It's definitely not part of a "standard six pack".
 
The glass panel REPLACES the 6 pack. You can have an IFR GPS, a WAAS one without having glass. Come on...
 
The last estimate I got for installing a glass panel in my Piper Pathfinder, back in 2012, was ~$50K.

By "glass", I don't mean Garmin 530s. I mean the full blown, 21st century Garmin glass cockpit, completely eliminating the vacuum system.

It was the straw that broke the camel's back, pushing me into the Experimental/Homebuilt world. In 2013 I bought a steam gauge equipped RV-8, and installed glass (GRT 10.5" Horizon HXr, etc.) for ~$11K in 2014.
 
Chip Sylverne said:
He had it up at TAP, but the listing expired. Saw his A&P last week, he mentioned it was still for sale. I'll see if I can get you a phone # or something this weekend if you're serious.
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I am. Please let me know.
 
coloradobluesky said:
The glass panel REPLACES the 6 pack. You can have an IFR GPS, a WAAS one without having glass. Come on...
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Different eras. I'm flying behind a very standard six pack with no GPS anywhere in the panel, and there were GPS (and Loran) once that had no moving map.

Put a moving map anywhere on the panel and I'll call it "glass". Might be old style glass, but it's still glass.

I certainly know what you're intending as your version of "glass", but that definition would include the old Sandel (sp?) HSI which would show the intention was to say "moving map". Not "glass", right? ;)
 
That 50k was glass AND full IFR/GPS etc.

Your experimental glass setup works for you, but is an VFR setup right?

There are really 3 categories. Glass that provides the equivalent functions of the traditional 6 pack. IFR/GPS. And an autopilot.

And yes, you can spend 50k on those, usually more (two IFR GPS's which you need for redundancy). And two VOR's, two VOR heads etc etc etc.

Its probably possible to spend 100k on just avionics!
 
And thats for Cessna 182, Bonanza, Mooney M20, Piper low wing class of airplane. Get into larger aircraft and it goes WAAY up.

Thing is, a classic 6 pack, an IFR/GPS, a coupled autopilot can do the same job. Fly every kind of approach. Flip on the autopilot for pilot relief. Works great!
 
Pilot relief?

39e2628f00772d0d73829c2982ea2460.jpg
 
pipernd said:
thanks all, it's a Comanche.
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Meh. That'll get spendy, outside of a experimental I wouldn't spend the money to put full glass in.

One option is to put a EHSI like a Sandell 3308 in and mount up a Mini GA where your AI was and relocate your certified AI to the side (the mini not for primary use in certifieds..of course). That would basically get you all the benefits of glass.

Mini GA

Uses input form your certified GPS, has real airspeed and altitude inputs, has a FD and highway in the sky based off the input from your Garmin 430 or whatever

SNAP0157.PNG


wp7eca9e78_05_06.jpg


http://www.grtavionics.com/mini-ga.html


Here's a 3500, similar to the 3308, they can be had for not too much used, uses a remote gyro and flux

image.jpg
 
I think it's fair to say that if someone uses the term "Glass Panel" they mean at minimum a PFD. GPS Navigators and HSI's (which are really kewl) are not "Glass Panel"

I'm sure if someone looked at an add for a C172 that had glass panel in the subject line they would feel lied to when they see a pic with a KING KMD250 in a field of steam gauges.
 
Sandia just came out with the 340 Quattro, certified "standby backup" replacement. It looks like a great instrument to use as a primary to me, moving the "primary" mechanical gyro to replace/displace the turn coordinator. Since the Quattro includes a slip indicator, it satisfies AC 91-75. Personally I would use this instrument as a primary and displace the "primary" mechanical gyro out of the center of the 6-pack.

That's 3AMUs, not sure what a shop would charge for such a simple installation. That seems about the cheapest way of adding solid state PFD functionality, other than the RCA2600. The RCA lacks the airspeed and baro inputs for otherwise the same price, so it seems like an improvement in value.

https://www.gulfcoastavionics.com/products/3992-sai-340-quattro.aspx

For my airplane hull value and expected resale value, 15+ AMU installation expenditures don't make economic sense. It exceeds my entire yearly operating budget; that's a whole year of flying, too high of an opportunity cost. To each their own.
 
Jay Honeck said:
The last estimate I got for installing a glass panel in my Piper Pathfinder, back in 2012, was ~$50K.

By "glass", I don't mean Garmin 530s. I mean the full blown, 21st century Garmin glass cockpit, completely eliminating the vacuum system.

It was the straw that broke the camel's back, pushing me into the Experimental/Homebuilt world. In 2013 I bought a steam gauge equipped RV-8, and installed glass (GRT 10.5" Horizon HXr, etc.) for ~$11K in 2014.
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Yet another example of certification stifling adoption of innovative technology by costing products out of the General Aviation market. Does the amount of certification required for a certified glass panel make the new technology 4.5 times safer than the glass marketed to the experimental market?:dunno:
 
Shopshirt said:
Yet another example of certification stifling adoption of innovative technology by costing products out of the General Aviation market. Does the amount of certification required for a certified glass panel make the new technology 4.5 times safer than the glass marketed to the experimental market?:dunno:
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The part 23 re-write was supposed to take care of that. The FAA response? FAA typical stonewalling.

http://www.avweb.com/news/features/Why-the-Part-23-Rewrite-Delay-Matters-222757-1.html

It's time these GS dinosaurs get off the pot and let progress through. Retire already!
 
hindsight2020 said:
The part 23 re-write was supposed to take care of that. The FAA response? FAA typical stonewalling.

http://www.avweb.com/news/features/Why-the-Part-23-Rewrite-Delay-Matters-222757-1.html

It's time these GS dinosaurs get off the pot and let progress through. Retire already!
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Exactly :yes:


Or maybe they should be held to the same zero tolerance level as they hold us pilots to.




...But alas, they are busy fighting to protect is from tiny consumer drones :rofl:


Keep up the good fight FAA
don-quixote-windmill.jpg
 
hindsight2020 said:
Sandia just came out with the 340 Quattro, certified "standby backup" replacement. It looks like a great instrument to use as a primary to me, moving the "primary" mechanical gyro to replace/displace the turn coordinator. Since the Quattro includes a slip indicator, it satisfies AC 91-75. Personally I would use this instrument as a primary and displace the "primary" mechanical gyro out of the center of the 6-pack.

That's 3AMUs, not sure what a shop would charge for such a simple installation. That seems about the cheapest way of adding solid state PFD functionality, other than the RCA2600. The RCA lacks the airspeed and baro inputs for otherwise the same price, so it seems like an improvement in value.

https://www.gulfcoastavionics.com/products/3992-sai-340-quattro.aspx

For my airplane hull value and expected resale value, 15+ AMU installation expenditures don't make economic sense. It exceeds my entire yearly operating budget; that's a whole year of flying, too high of an opportunity cost. To each their own.
Click to expand...

That's pretty much exactly what I'm looking for as a backup for IFR. And it includes more than just attitude information that I'd get with a $5K backup electric attitude indicator. And, the price is right.

Bookmarking that page. Thanks:yes:


Edit - If it needs pitot/static inputs, it's probably a fairly pricey install but I'm sure it wouldn't be terrible.
 
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