Glass or steam?

As an OWNER, do you prefer glass or steam?

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nj-pilot

nj-pilot

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Am thinking of buying (for fun, family missions of ~300-500 miles for weekend getaways) - wondering if this matters?

My thoughts:
  • Glass: I prefer this as a pilot, but not thrilled about the maintenance costs
  • Steam: Saves money, but not sure how much longer parts will be available (Cirrus or Cessna)
Interested to hear what others think.
 
nj-pilot said:
Am thinking of buying (for fun, family missions of ~300-500 miles for weekend getaways) - wondering if this matters?

My thoughts:
  • Glass: I prefer this as a pilot, but not thrilled about the maintenance costs
  • Steam: Saves money, but not sure how much longer parts will be available (Cirrus or Cessna)
Interested to hear what others think.
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Ain't no law says ya gotta have either. Are you Instrument Rated, or plan to be? A Sectional Chart may be all you need. Yeah, that's kinda an extreme(not really) but. An Ipad, phone, or similar gadget may be perfectly suitable for what you want to do. So get the plane you want and if some Nav Instrument breaks, so what.
 
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The glass seems to be loaded with some gotchas.

Obsolescence not easily upgraded becomes a total panel change-out. $ouch$
Some single component failures can knock out a whole panel, making a real emergency​

I'm not seeing any lack of availability of overhauled discrete components, i.e. AIs or DGs yet.
 
I think fancy shtuff has its place- for most ppl it’s a just a fancier toy.

especially if you aren’t instrument rated… if you are vfr then I’d buy one w simplest panel possible… less upkeep w less shtuff to break.

here is my panel and I’ve flown all over the country, multiple 1000+mile trips, I never once felt inhibited by lack of gauges for vfr. Especially with an iPad with adsb in- I have more than I need. More isn’t always better imo. Frankly now that I know my bird I think I could do most missions with just oil temp and pressure :)

2A772378-672A-4350-89DA-F0822A51B892.jpeg
 
Rgbeard said:
Some single component failures can knock out a whole panel...
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Can you give some specifics? This seems...unlikely IME, but I don't know the ins and outs of every GA panel.

FWIW for my interpretation of the OP's mission a well-planned glass panel is easier for me, but I have no issue with a decent steam panel either.

Nauga,
and his FMEA
 
nauga said:
Can you give some specifics? This seems...unlikely IME, but I don't know the ins and outs of every GA panel.

FWIW for the OP's mission a well-planed glass panel is easier for me, but I have no issue with a decent steam panel either.

Nauga,
and his FMEA
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I cannot, but I can cite that over at the PA-32 group on Facebook, we've had two pilots in recent times report in-flight outages on PFDs and other such.

Hearing that these things happened, gave me pause.
 
Steam panels will generally have higher maintenance costs than glass. Most glass is virtually maintenance free assuming it was installed correctly. 98% if the issues with glass are poor wiring. Some of the stuff coming out of large avionics shops are atrocious.
 
Rgbeard said:
I cannot, but I can cite that over at the PA-32 group on Facebook, we've had two pilots in recent times report in-flight outages on PFDs and other such.
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I can easily see that, but does loss of a PFD imply loss of the whole panel? I've got some redundancy though backups and was under the impression that most IFR panels did as well.

Nauga,
who is the primary SPOF in his cockpit
 
Huckster79 said:
I think fancy shtuff has its place- for most ppl it’s a just a fancier toy.

especially if you aren’t instrument rated… if you are vfr then I’d buy one w simplest panel possible… less upkeep w less shtuff to break.

here is my panel and I’ve flown all over the country, multiple 1000+mile trips, I never once felt inhibited by lack of gauges for vfr. Especially with an iPad with adsb in- I have more than I need. More isn’t always better imo. Frankly now that I know my bird I think I could do most missions with just oil temp and pressure :)

View attachment 103590
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You need to check your prop balance dude. Looks like ya got a vibration problem there.:D
 
nauga said:
I can easily see that, but does loss of a PFD imply loss of the whole panel? I've got some redundancy though backups and was under the impression that most IFR panels did as well.

Nauga,
who is the primary SPOF in his cockpit
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I have to stop and set the chocks, as I only have my personal reservations, that I've shared, but no first-hand knowledge to contribute furthering of the conversation.
 
My recommendation is to buy the plane you want that fits your budget, then upgrade or modify the panel as desired the way you want it. This would give you time to study all of the options out there to see what’s works best for you. You can also do a little along as you have the resources. This was the approach I took and now have a panel that I love. As far as the gauges go, there are so many options these days for replacing the old steam gauges with new electronic versions. I just recently took the vacuum system along with the AI and DG out of my plane and replaced all of that weight with more reliable light weight electronic versions that fit into the existing holes. The new uAvionix AV-30-C has way more functionality than just an AI. It is actually a small EFIS.
919BA30A-DDEF-496C-9715-9286ACE0A5A5.jpeg
 
Jeff767 said:
Steam panels will generally have higher maintenance costs than glass. Most glass is virtually maintenance free assuming it was installed correctly. 98% if the issues with glass are poor wiring. Some of the stuff coming out of large avionics shops are atrocious.
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Was gonna say this. Glass is “more expensive” until you’ve overhauled an AI two times, replaced a DG, a vacuum pump, etc. and could have just put dual G5s in for the same cost you’ve spent repairing outdated equipment.

I would never buy a plane at this point that doesn’t at least have some glass. Save yourself the hassle and money. And that old AI is way more likely to go out in IMC than that piece of glass.
 
nauga said:
Can you give some specifics?
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I could see it if someone builds a single panel VFR setup with a single ADHRS driving it... Loss of power, loss of panel... Loss of ADHRS loss of info... But hey it's VFR so just look out the window.

On an IFR set up I would hope for some redundancy.
 
nauga said:
I can easily see that, but does loss of a PFD imply loss of the whole panel? I've got some redundancy though backups and was under the impression that most IFR panels did as well.

Nauga,
who is the primary SPOF in his cockpit
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I've heard of issues from a friend whom I trust not to embellish and who is an A&P as well as a very seasoned pilot. His experience with a DA40 and G1000 system going out completely says that some of these glass systems to have that issue. That's just one data point though, and I think the systems most older planes would upgrade to would have more backup chances as they typically have more than the 1 big screen.
 
bfmetcalf said:
I've heard of issues from a friend whom I trust not to embellish and who is an A&P as well as a very seasoned pilot. His experience with a DA40 and G1000 system going out completely says that some of these glass systems to have that issue. That's just one data point though, and I think the systems most older planes would upgrade to would have more backup chances as they typically have more than the 1 big screen.
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I’m not up on the specific regs, but I’ve never seen a glass-panel IFR airplane that didn’t have backup instrumentation with a different power source.
 
MauleSkinner said:
I’m not up on the specific regs, but I’ve never seen a glass-panel IFR airplane that didn’t have backup instrumentation with a different power source.
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Yeah, I don't know all of the details, but he won't buy a glass panel because of all the issues he saw with that DA40 and losing everything more than once. Could have been power related, I'll have to ask him for more details sometime.
 
I've been flying behind glass (G1000 and G3X) both IFR and VFR for 8 years now. In that time I've had exactly 1 screen failure and it did not impact the safe completion of the flight. I will not voluntarily go back to steam.
 
MauleSkinner said:
I’m not up on the specific regs, but I’ve never seen a glass-panel IFR airplane that didn’t have backup instrumentation with a different power source.
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I'm not familiar with a lot of GA glass panels but the ones I am familiar with have that level of redundancy. It might take a lot of study/familiarization to understand the failure modes but that homework is a part of contingency management I'm comfortable with.

Nauga,
partially paneled
 
I had to pull breaker during training once to reset...so failures do happen, but pitot static systems also spring leaks...you just need to understand whatever system you have and potential failure points.

I trained in a G1000...knew glass would be outta my budget for purchase but I managed too score a 182 with an Apsen PFD so I wound up with a partial glass panel and have the best of both worlds...pretty much a full steam gauge panel and glass display.

I am as gadget techno geek as they come but in reality, I fly almost 100% by steam gauges even IFR.

While glass may be nice, I would not at all let that make or break a deal on the right plane for me and most my missions are 250nm XC travel trips.

Knowing what I know now I will take a nice autopilot all day and every day over glass as a priority.
 
I looked at several 206's over the last 12 months both glass and steam. I was fine to go either way when the right 206 came along. As it worked out the 206 I bought has a G1000 with a KAP140 autopilot. So far to say I love it would be an understatement. Of course I haven't had any issues at this point. As far as flying behind it once you learn the buttonology and the little gotchas its a snap to use. I think the Garmin subscription is $1100 annually for Garmin and Jeppesen updates which does add to the cost, but in my personal opinion the SA that the G1000 provides and ease of operation its well worth having.

I'm starting my IFR training shortly so we'll see how much I like the screens when they "fail" and I have to fly with the back up instruments that arent in a prime viewing area...


Update: I would not buy a G1000 that wasn't WAAS capable.
 
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A huge factor would be E/AB or certificated.

If E/AB, then while a particular EFIS may become obsolete or orphaned, it is not difficult nor (relatively) expensive to replace with a current model.

If certified, then yes, it could be an expensive problem if the EFIS fails and is no longer supported.
 
In IFR flights, I find it a lot easier to scan the PFD than to scan steam gauges.
 
nj-pilot said:
Am thinking of buying (for fun, family missions of ~300-500 miles for weekend getaways) - wondering if this matters?

My thoughts:
  • Glass: I prefer this as a pilot, but not thrilled about the maintenance costs
  • Steam: Saves money, but not sure how much longer parts will be available (Cirrus or Cessna)
Interested to hear what others think.
Click to expand...

What are the maintenance costs of electronic instruments? I would probably go through a bucket of vacuum and electric gyros in the length of time between G5 failures. For IFR, electronic displays are much easier to scan than the mechanical gauges and CDIs. Everything is right in front of you. There is a little transition time, but it's a pretty quick study to get up to speed. The other bonus is no vacuum system with electronic displays. Saves weight and eliminates an often problematic failure mode in IMC.
 
After learning and mastering the skills needed to fly a fully coupled flight director with only two thumbs and a scan covering 5/8 of an inch, I enjoy the old fashioned task of scanning a six pack, or even a partial panel round instrument panel.

I have 100X more experience with steam gauges than with glass and I can use both.

I could never afford the cost of equipping a certified normal category aircraft with a full glass panel, but sure as [heck] would build my own fully functional IFR electronic displays for an E-AB.

GA airplanes are a hilarious mixture of technology from the 1930's and modern times. A 1/4 Zillion Dollar analyzer connected to an engine designed before WWII is a good example.

Oh yeah, vacuum systems! Har har!
 
I have a G5 next to a big ol' round analog altimeter. I have to force myself to remember to look at the tape-style altitude readout on the G5. My brain is programmed to interpret the "Mickey's big hand is on the '5' and his little hand is on the '7'" message quicker than reading the little numbers on the G5.

Last summer I ferried a Dynon glass-panel TR182 over a thousand nautical miles to northwest Washington State. The volume of information being provided by the screens was amazing, but there was a perceptible lag in my mental processing of it.

This old dog doesn't learn new tricks that easily.
 
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My C172 is so old and rebuilt so many times it's a combo. I pad mini 5 and a few steam. Very basic panel. Foreflight on the I pad. It does have ADS-B in and out.
I rather like it.
 

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Pilawt said:
I have a G5 next to a big ol' round analog altimeter. I have to force myself to remember to look at the tape-style altitude readout on the G5. My brain is programmed to interpret the "Mickey's big hand is on the '5' and his little hand is on the '7'" message quicker than reading the little numbers on the G5.
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I learned on steam gauges but quickly switched to glass while the ink on my ticket was still drying. When I fly with a G5 (which in certified installations requires the analog altimeter to be retained) I have to force myself to pick one or the other.:)

chemgeek said:
What are the maintenance costs of electronic instruments?
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How much do database subscriptions cost on steam gauges? :)

But to the OP's point, not all glass is the same, and for me glass vs steam depends on which glass we're talking about (and who's buying).
 
My database subscriptions are free for life with the Dynon. Major airlines like FedEx are retrofitting 757/767’s to full glass because the maintenance costs are so much lower with vastly fewer parts needing to be stocked. With most of the newer gear you also have the option for full engine monitoring which can save dollars on engine maintenance.
 
My answer would be yes and yes. Give me a six pack where two are G275’s. Add in a GTN and I’m good. Maybe toss in an autopilot linked to it all. Later switch to full glass sometime in future.
 
Mxfarm said:
For me, it’s quicker to scan needle orientation than read a number.
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I was like that and still catch myself looking at the ASI sometimes.
But scanning a small area of the panel during an approach or in imc became a lot easier for me and made me a more precise pilot.
 
I think that in buying an ifr.capable plane that steam Vs glass is lower down in priority compared.to
Capital Vs ongoing costs forecasts (capex/opex)
IFR certified
Waas GPS
Autopilot
Fiki
Wx radar
Interior (family)
Paint job
 
Depends on what your definition of glass is. If only G1000 is glass, then yeah when one ting goes wrong it's a pain. Now if you are looking at the 3X, G5's or 275 those are a different story for mx costs. I have and would prefer a 3X or G5/275 setup with a good GPS.
 
MacFlier said:
In IFR flights, I find it a lot easier to scan the PFD than to scan steam gauges.
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I have been wondering over the past few days how quickly a pilot loses his ability to effectively scan and fly on backup analog instruments if he/she is exclusively flying something like dual G5's. Just throwing that out.

As far as preference, I prefer analog since that is what is in our airplane. :)
 
If I could easily afford glass, then glass. If not, steam(or semi-steam these days). That simple.
 
A pair of electronic AI's such as G5, GI 275, or UA-30, with automatic reversion and battery backup is a very resilient, redundant system for not a lot of money. I can't imagine why anyone would prefer whirling gyros powered by suction.

For all the other gauges, needles and steam are just fine, and probably more reliable.
 
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