Glad it's not me

Ken Ibold

Ken Ibold

Final Approach
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Ken Ibold
In keeping with the whole "annual inspection" theme, I just got a phone call from a troubled friend. Seems his annual -- conducted by the same guy who did his prebuy a year ago and who maintained the 2001 aircraft since new -- is up to at least $45,000. That's the estimate, and as we know estimates always end up being low. Downtime is expected to be at least a month.

No, there is no engine overhaul. No new cylinders. 7-year-old airplane. Sheesh.
 
Ken Ibold said:
In keeping with the whole "annual inspection" theme, I just got a phone call from a troubled friend. Seems his annual -- conducted by the same guy who did his prebuy a year ago and who maintained the 2001 aircraft since new -- is up to at least $45,000. That's the estimate, and as we know estimates always end up being low. Downtime is expected to be at least a month.

No, there is no engine overhaul. No new cylinders. 7-year-old airplane. Sheesh.
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Jeez, what aircraft is it?
 
Ken Ibold said:
In keeping with the whole "annual inspection" theme, I just got a phone call from a troubled friend. Seems his annual -- conducted by the same guy who did his prebuy a year ago and who maintained the 2001 aircraft since new -- is up to at least $45,000. That's the estimate, and as we know estimates always end up being low. Downtime is expected to be at least a month.

No, there is no engine overhaul. No new cylinders. 7-year-old airplane. Sheesh.
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WTH? No major engine work on a seven year old plane? That is insane...I am sorry but there is very little justification for that besides someone taking advantage of your friend.
 
I hope the A&P at least tells your friend he loves him. I'd hate to get screwed and know I wasn't loved.:(
 
OK, now the rest of the story. It's a Piper Meridian. Piper chose to use a magnesium inlet on the engine, rather than the aluminum Pratt puts on all the other PT-6's out there. The magnesium developed corrosion -- which is happening to a lot of Meridians -- and that will be almost 20K to fix. The engine had to be removed, crated, and sent to Pratt for repair. The prop hub was trash. There's 10K more. All of the backup instruments needed overhaul. The rear seats have an AD because the seatbacks break. No repair; replace the seats.

Welcome to the world of turboprops.
 
I knew there had to be a catch somewhere. Or in this case, 45,000 catches.
 
Ken Ibold said:
OK, now the rest of the story. It's a Piper Meridian. Piper chose to use a magnesium inlet on the engine, rather than the aluminum Pratt puts on all the other PT-6's out there. The magnesium developed corrosion -- which is happening to a lot of Meridians -- and that will be almost 20K to fix. The engine had to be removed, crated, and sent to Pratt for repair. The prop hub was trash. There's 10K more. All of the backup instruments needed overhaul. The rear seats have an AD because the seatbacks break. No repair; replace the seats.

Welcome to the world of turboprops.
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Well that explains it a bit!
 
wsuffa said:
Underdesigned..... but we knew that already.
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Was out at an air salvage yard with some folks today, discussion turned to the relative rates of structural failure of Monneys vs. Malibus. Interesting.

Took a look at the spar of a Mooney. Mama, that is what we should all want in turbulence.
 
SCCutler said:
Was out at an air salvage yard with some folks today, discussion turned to the relative rates of structural failure of Monneys vs. Malibus. Interesting.

Took a look at the spar of a Mooney. Mama, that is what we should all want in turbulence.
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You think thats good. take a look a the piece of tubular steel running through the wing of the Grumans Tigers chetahs etc.
 
From the New Piper web site: Grace, class and performance. The Meridian looks fast on the ramp and performs at all Flight Levels. With Meridian, Piper has taken an unapologetic leap into the realm of outrageous elegance, luxury, performance and indulgence. Designed for pilots with a burning desire for more, Meridian is exuberant, powerful and stylish – the perfect marriage of technology, creativity and tactile pleasure. Its release rocked the world of general aviation. It will rock yours.

Sounds like it's rocking your friend's world!! Notice the emphasis on design, engineering and precision technical standards <g>

Best,

Dave
 
SCCutler said:
Was out at an air salvage yard with some folks today, discussion turned to the relative rates of structural failure of Monneys vs. Malibus.
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Now, ya gotta be fair. The special certification review undertaken on the Malibus identified the breakup cause as training shortcomings that were basically due to people flying Malibus like they were Mooneys. Since those shortcomings were fixed, the PA-46 inflight breakup rate has been minimal and always (that I know of) associated with thunderstorm penetration.

Not trying to take anything away from Mooneys, as they are stoutly built and I love 'em. But an airplane flying in the mid-20s encounters different weather than one at 8000-13000 feet.
 
Ken Ibold said:
OK, now the rest of the story. It's a Piper Meridian. Piper chose to use a magnesium inlet on the engine, rather than the aluminum Pratt puts on all the other PT-6's out there. The magnesium developed corrosion -- which is happening to a lot of Meridians -- and that will be almost 20K to fix. The engine had to be removed, crated, and sent to Pratt for repair. The prop hub was trash. There's 10K more. All of the backup instruments needed overhaul. The rear seats have an AD because the seatbacks break. No repair; replace the seats.

Welcome to the world of turboprops.
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Not quite. None of this stuff happens to Darwin Conrad's conversions. Piper should be embarassed as heck.
 
[CLUNK] That was my jaw hitting the desktop. $45000 clams? For a 7yr old airplane? Backup instruments need overhauling? WTF?

I guess he should be glad it's a single!

I knew the Meridian/Malibu/Mirages were on the dainty side when it comes to system durability, but come on - backup instruments? Unless the guy is chainsmoking or doing aerobatics, why on earth would they fritz out in 7yrs.

Much as I like the Matrix, that little voice keeps telling me "Stay away, stay away, stay away. Remember how sh#tty that '88 VW Golf was? Imagine that times 70." It won't need platinum plating, but I'm sure plenty of other stuff is bound to break.
 
So, Piper uses the wrong material in a bad design and the owner has a mandated change to cost over twenty grand out of his own pocket? Then, there's the issue of a badly designed rear seat with mandatory replacement? Aren't these the things law suits are made of?

Next, I'm wondering why a prop hub would be in such bad shape as well as instruments needing overhaul. How many hours are on the engine, propeller and airframe? What are the TBO's?
 
KennyFlys said:
So, Piper uses the wrong material in a bad design and the owner has a mandated change to cost over twenty grand out of his own pocket? Then, there's the issue of a badly designed rear seat with mandatory replacement? Aren't these the things law suits are made of?

Next, I'm wondering why a prop hub would be in such bad shape as well as instruments needing overhaul. How many hours are on the engine, propeller and airframe? What are the TBO's?
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Actually, there is not a "change" mandated. This is to replace the magnesium part with ANOTHER magnesium part. Unlike the JetProp conversion of the Malibu/Mirage, which uses aluminum for the part, Piper certified it with magnesium and won't do the work to amend the TC. Pratt refuses warranty, saying the corrosion is the result of too infrequent compressor washes -- which it says should be done AFTER EVERY FLIGHT that penetrates clouds. That's patently ridiculous. Methinks there's an STC there waiting to make somebody some money.

The prop hub and the backup instruments got me as well. I see no reason why they should fail so soon.
 
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It's not uncommon to see the prices of 30K on a Meridian annual with the 6 year items on the quote. The price moves up really quick with a prop overhaul, FCU midlife inspection, fuel and oil hoses, and O2 mask too. Oh, throw in the squawks and owners request too. Don't kid your self, the Jet prop can jump up pretty quick too. They never developed a Maintenance limits schedule like Piper. It can be understood that the part 91 operator doesn't need to do the items. The real problem interpretation shows up when it shows up at annual in certain Piper shops or at a pre-buy.

The magnesium case is used on single engine applications with a oil level sight glass built in. (TBM 700/PC-12) The seat back has been a problem since 1995 and certain shops are unwilling to make the repair/ reinforcements that we have been doing for years.

This is an expensive airplane to operate, I know all to well.

Regards, Kevin
 
kmead said:
It's not uncommon to see the prices of 30K on a Meridian annual with the 6 year items on the quote. The price moves up really quick with a prop overhaul, FCU midlife inspection, fuel and oil hoses, and O2 mask too. Oh, throw in the squawks and owners request too. Don't kid your self, the Jet prop can jump up pretty quick too. They never developed a Maintenance limits schedule like Piper. It can be understood that the part 91 operator doesn't need to do the items. The real problem interpretation shows up when it shows up at annual in certain Piper shops or at a pre-buy.

The magnesium case is used on single engine applications with a oil level sight glass built in. (TBM 700/PC-12) The seat back has been a problem since 1995 and certain shops are unwilling to make the repair/ reinforcements that we have been doing for years.

This is an expensive airplane to operate, I know all to well.

Regards, Kevin
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Kevin, I was hoping you'd weigh in on this. The shop involved is Sun.
 
Thank you Kevin. We all know that if the owner cannot simply write a big check to replace the whole kaboodle, he shouldn't be operating it.

BIG SIGH.
 
Everskyward said:
At least he can be happy that he isn't dealing with the world of jets where $45,000 might buy you a... dump valve for the lav.
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$45k = windscreen for a Citation. Ask me how I know that.


Once the line guy was pulling a rental Cessna 172 out of the hangar for me and he scratched the windscreen of the Citation it was parked next too. OUCH!
 
Well, I looked at purchasing one of these when I was on my evaluate upgrading binge (back before my business went straight in the cr@pper! Anyway, I just heard from one owner after another about stuff like this. They all made it sound normal, but it sure didn't seem that-a-way to me.

We've been very aggressively maintaining the P-Baron. Put in all new fuel bladders last month, even though we could have waited. $7,500 plus more than that for labor. Did tires, brakes, bearings and lots of other stuff totaling $27,000. We expected bladders when we purchased the plane because they were original! It's all a matter of what one can tolerate, but I'd much rather tolerate normal, foreseeable items like I've repaired on the Baron. To me, this is junk replacement stuff that goes back to design and engineering stuff. I just don't want a $2MM plane with chrome stuff that looks impressive; then, breaks in a few years. I know more than one owner that sold one of these after a year of ownership. The piston version, I know several.

Best,

Dave
 
Dave Siciliano said:
It's all a matter of what one can tolerate, but I'd much rather tolerate normal, foreseeable items like I've repaired on the Baron. To me, this is junk replacement stuff that goes back to design and engineering stuff.
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EXACTLY! Normal, reasonable mx expense, no problem. Fancier plane, sure that should cost more. But stuff that should last, but doesn't, that's BS. And, honestly, backup instrumentation overhaul??? That's ludicrous. The seats? These planes have been in production for HOW MANY years and the design hasn't been fixed? That's crap. Pilot/owners are so used to being lashed with this whip they've stopped whimpering, so the mfrs just keep doing it, putting our shoddy design and requiring the buyer to pay for it (through ADs and the like). What a business!!
 
flyersfan31 said:
EXACTLY! Normal, reasonable mx expense, no problem. Fancier plane, sure that should cost more. But stuff that should last, but doesn't, that's BS. And, honestly, backup instrumentation overhaul??? That's ludicrous. The seats? These planes have been in production for HOW MANY years and the design hasn't been fixed? That's crap. Pilot/owners are so used to being lashed with this whip they've stopped whimpering, so the mfrs just keep doing it, putting our shoddy design and requiring the buyer to pay for it (through ADs and the like). What a business!!
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I hate to sound like a broken record, but...

Piper is dead, dead, dead.

Remember, the Meridian owners were the ones that they were going to try to sell the jets to...
 
A $45k annual for items like that really stinks. On a 40 year old aircraft I could understand more things like that going wrong and needing to be replaced as a matter of age, but that just seems excessive.

Oh well, hopefully he really likes flying it! :)
 
Wow. Just wow. I'm glad that someone out there can fly these, I know I couldn't afford to!
 
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