Girl taken off flight for crying too much

[Bill]

The benefits of family lie at a deeper, more intense yet subtle layer. Becoming a parent (not neccessarily a biological one!) is a life altering experiance that can not be duplicated.

I thank Jesus for the gift and priviledge of having allowed me the experiance of parenthood.

Thanks, Dart, nice words!

 

[AVIATORRANDYCFI]

After reading all the negetive things said about kids i feel real sorry for all those that don't have or are planning to have kids. How Selfish. Maybe your mom and dad should have thought that way. By the way i am 43 and have five kids ages 18 thur 20 months. There have been bad times and good times but it would never change my mind as to having them. There have been so many great moments in our lives so far and many more to come. like my 13 year old son landing for the first time with out my help (I am a CFI teaching my kids to fly )or my 12 year old daughter doing a go aound and saying that approach did look good dad . So many other things that have made me smile. to many to list. Just remember my kids and the other posters that have children that our kids will be deciding our laws that we live by. I could go on and on about great things that kids bring to life. One more thing for the people that bash kids is that i feel sad that you will never be able to feel the joy and fullness when your son or daughter walks by you and gives you a big hug and say's thanks dad ( or mom) for having me you are the greatest!!! Your heart will never feel that kind of love!!!

 

[tomcat]

Nick (SkyHog) - you are optimistic, but clueless.

I am a proud father of two kids, Lukas is 3 1/2 years and Laura is 20 months. I have not seen the need to spank either of them yet, but they do receive the occasional time-out or a less-than-gentle pat on the derriere.

When we got off a LONG flight from Stuttgart - Atlanta, several passengers came to us at the baggage claim and thanked us for taking good care of our kids and complimented us on how well-behaved they are.

All it takes is a bit of preparation (lots of food, drink, books, entertainment) and a lot of focus while you are on the flight. So many parents today sit in a restaurant talking among themselves while kids misbehave, play with their Gameboy or listen to their iPod.

Kids today are totally overloaded with activities, dates, they need Outlook and a Blackberry to keep track of their busy lives. Whatever happened to "here is a ball, now go play and be back by 6?"

 

[ReverendSlappy]

Becoming a parent (not neccessarily a biological one!) is a life altering experiance that can not be duplicated.

I thank Jesus for the gift and priviledge of having allowed me the experiance of parenthood.

I'm a big believer in the notion of people having a "calling" in life. I'm very happy for you that you found yours and that it has brought you all the rewarding experiences you deserve.

For me, I'm all but 100% certain that my "calling" doesn't involve having children; not because there's anything wrong with having children, just that it isn't right for me.

 

[gkainz]

Some excellent posts here from both points of view - thanks for all your thoughts. For those that chose to not have kids - I applaud your choice and convictions. Nothing worse than having a child and not being committed to putting your life into raising that child, in my opinion.

To those who shared about raising kids, thanks! It's hard work and the little buggers don't come with manuals! We've raised 3... The oldest, my step-daughter, is 26, married and expecting a child of her own in 3 months. The middle, our son is 20 in a couple of weeks, in college, working, has a serious girlfriend, leads a high school bible study and seriously seeking God's plan for his life. The youngest, our son, 14, is playing guitar in the junior high youth group at church, active in multiple areas, and is friends with 2 of the members of The Fray. Funny aside from that - one of his good friends is the sister of one of the band members - he said she needs a T-shirt that says on one side "I'm NOT with the band!" and the other reads "No, I CAN'T get you tickets!"

Anyway, each have presented their own challenges but each has also been and continue to be a special blessing to their mom and I. We are truly blessed.

 

[ReverendSlappy]

After reading all the negetive things said about kids i feel real sorry for all those that don't have or are planning to have kids. How Selfish. Maybe your mom and dad should have thought that way.

Well I certainly hope you're not raising your children to be as baselessly judgmental and self-importantly arrogant as that statement is.

Just because having children has brought you the joy and reward it has (and honestly, good for you) simply doesn't mean that it would do the same for anyone else. And assuming what's good for your goose is good for the gander is the height of arrogance. And frankly, the implication that I or the several others here who have chosen not to have children shouldn't be alive is very, very rude, a behavior I can only hope you teach your children to avoid.

 

[ReverendSlappy]

And one more:

Just remember my kids and the other posters that have children that our kids will be deciding our laws that we live by.

And remember that many of the children of parents who aren't 100% invested in their children's lives are the ones who will wind up in jail under those laws. You should be thanking those of us who are wise enough to avoid making such a mistake for making your children's jobs easier.

 

[Greebo]

Ok, lets keep it impersonal, people. Getting too touchy here...

 

[AVIATORRANDYCFI]

One Word Selfish !!! Amen

 

[CowboyPilot]

After reading all the negetive things said about kids i feel real sorry for all those that don't have or are planning to have kids. How Selfish. Maybe your mom and dad should have thought that way.

Selfish?

You oughta see our charity account and my fuel bill for flying around these pre-teen kids who have leukemia. I do it gladly and don't decuct one stinking dime of it from my end-of-year taxes. It comes from the heart.

I have heard the "you're selfish" line from people like you all my life.

Tell you what, pal, let's look at selfish:

--I was selfish NOT to have kids while I was a professional soldier fighting a sh***y war.

--I was selfish not to have kids upon coming home and working three jobs while using my GI bill to get a college education.

--I was selfish not to have kids when I was working twelve to sixteen hour days six and seven days a week for the first five to eight years keeping the sludge off the street that preys on kids like yours and that makes our world a helluva lot more dangerous place.

--My wife and I were selfish not to have kids when biologically, it would be questionable?

Guess what, pal? There are a lot of reasons people choose to not have questions. Most of them are none of your damned business. The "how selfish" response/argument/reply is guaranteed to set me off everytime, and trust me, you don not want to be standing in front of me and say that. Nobody does--'cause I'll tell you straight up what I think of your "how selfish" bravo sierra.

I might turn around and say "how selfish" about parents who "wanted children" but couldn't otherwise afford them but still had them. How many different gov't programs do we have now because someone "wanted something" but couldn't afford it but went ahead and did it anyway?

I see so many parents who are one paycheck away from financial destruction that it is pathetic. They have TOO many kids. Growing up in rural West Texas, we used to say, "They done screwed themselves away from the dinner table."

And the discussion hasn't been nearly so much about "kids or no kids" but rather misbehaving kids whose parents are oblivious to their little brats' behavior.

And, strangely enough, those are the types of parents that we used to hear the "how selfish" crap from. How ironic. . .

-JD

 

[Frank Browne]

I'd have to say it would be tough to be a parent on a flight.

It's even tougher being a parent in a society that is on the verge of disallowing virtually any form of punishment, and then whine about unruley kids. I'm a firm believer in the old adage of "spare the rod and spoil the child". My kids never acted out in public, but they were kids. And adults who can't or won't understand the difference between a meltdown of a child when the parents refuse to do anything about it, and a child simply being a child (chatty, playful) are as annoying to me as much as anything. As I said, my kids never made scenes in public because they knew if they did they would be punished. But punishment is getting to be not an option these days.

 

[AVIATORRANDYCFI]

amen to frank...

 

[Frank Browne]

Obviously you don't have kids. It'll be interesting how your theories
work out. Physical punishment does not work ..

It damned sure worked on me! Whenever my mom or dad would take a belt or switch to my rear end, I very quickly shut my yapper.

it just teaches that hitting
and violence is ok.

It taught me to shut my yapper.

I can recall my daughter having a few melt downs at
that age. I sure never needed to strike her.

Count yourself lucky then.

 

[Henning]

what is the brain lock you are referring to above? I guess I haven't been around kids enough - is that a good thing?

They just seem to get stuck into that mode in a loop (kind of like when you computer locks up) and no external stimulous is noticed, not voice or physical. It just needs a reboot from the inside so you need to figure out a way to trigger it and that's the way I found that worked with no trauma. You have to remember that at that age their brains aren't fully circuited yet and you can't really deal with them as you would wih say a 6 year old much less as an adult.

 

[ReverendSlappy]

Ok, lets keep it impersonal, people. Getting too touchy here...

One Word Selfish !!! Amen

I personally find it virtually impossible to reply to that (repugnantly rude and arrogant) post without getting downright nasty, so I won't respond to it directly.

Suffice it to say that the habit of so many people out there to try to convince those of us who don't want children that we "don't get it" or that we're "being selfish" or that "we're missing out" typifies the growing trend of "middle-class nannyism".

Some parents honestly share their joys and let their lives and happiness speak for themselves, and nobody can fault them for that. Others, however, attempt to try to convince us that they've gained some form of supposed wisdom through raising children that taught them not only what's best for their children, but also what's best for everybody else. And in the latter case, they're obviously and laughably mistaken. But when people who don't fit their idealistic template of what they have defined for only themselves as "happy", they can only resort to condescendingly denigrating that person's choices, typically by implying they don't understand something that only they do, or accusing them of having some kind of negative personal attribute (such as selfishness) that they obviously don't feel they suffer from. All of this in an awkward combination of cowardice and arrogance evident in their intellectually plain attempts to preserve their comfortable idealism.

The rest of us, on the other hand, wish the latter types would stick to trying to raise their own children, and not us. Our parents have already raised us -- and at least sufficiently well enough to not be so rude and pompous as to attempt to stuff our self-constructed ideals down others' throats.

And given my signature, you may know how I feel about such idealism. Another of one of my favorite (and more popular) Mencken quotes is as follows: "An idealist is one who, on noticing that a rose smells better than a cabbage, concludes that it will also make better soup."

 

[Frank Browne]

The rest of us, on the other hand, wish the latter types would stick to trying to raise their own children, and not us. Our parents have already raised us -- and at least sufficiently well enough to not be so rude and pompous as to attempt to stuff our self-constructed ideals down others' throats.

I agree. My children have brought me riches beyond measure, but having them was our decision and our decision alone. It was a personal choice that was right for us. It isn't right for everyone.

 

[gkainz]

JD - I hope you don't let those comments become a burr under your saddle. I want to personally thank you for what you do to help those who need it. Thank you! Sounds to me like you made the right choices for you, your life, and your circumstances. I saw too many breakups, splits, divorces and children with 1 parent among my shipmates while deployed overseas. That's life, they say, but it's a tough life, for sure.
A tip of the hat to you.

 

[Eamon]

Before I had kids, I thought that people who didn't have kids were odd. Who wouldn't want to have kids??

Then after having kids, I applaud those that decided not to for whatever reason.

I would much rather see someone with no kids than a poor parent with kids.

 

[James_Dean]

I thank Jesus for the gift and priviledge of having allowed me the experiance of parenthood.

Thanks for that. My kids are the greatest gift I've ever received.


All of these negative posts and judgements are just like non-pilots or the media talking about flying. You don't know what the hell you are talking about.

How do you know that the bad incident that started this thread wasn't precipitated by the airline bumping the mother off a flight? How do you know she hadn't just spent 10 hours in the gate area? I've been there and done that. You know how ****ed kids get when that have to nap on the floor of a loud gate?

Are there bad parents? Yep. Do some some bad apples mean that the rest of us should be chastized, be made to stay at home, or to not be allowed to travel? YGBSM! Hypocrites.

EDIT: I want to be clear that I don't have a problem with people who decide not to have kids. I have a problem with those same people assuming that they have any ability to comment on my parenting aptitude.

James Dean

 

[Ghery]

Back to the original subject...

My wife and I have raised two kids (now 30 and 26). BTDT. We were fully involved in their lives as they grew up. Public tantrums were NOT tolerated. In fact, they will observe something like that going on now and comment about how they would never have been allowed to behave in that fashion. Are they perfect? No. Would I change them today? Well... No, they're great 'kids'. And when our daughter finally gives us a grandchild I suspect that it (he/she) will be raised with love and guidance.

Our son experienced airline flight for the first time when he was 3. DEN (Stapleton in those days) to GEG with stops in between. 5 hours or so late getting out of DEN due to weather (and, yes, it was a legitimate weather delay - snow and more snow). Kid had the golden opportunity to be a brat in the terminal and we'd 'understand'. Nope. Perfect angel. Probably thought he was seeing me off on another trip. Didn't really seem to dawn on him that he was going too until we were halfway out to the plane (no jet way for the flight, walk out on the ramp to the air stairs). Then his eyes got as big as saucers. Got him into the plane, set him down in the window seat and strapped him in. Plane took off. He looks out the window and looks at me. Looks out the window and looks at me. After a couple repetitions, he exclaims "Daddy! I flying!". F/As came by later with peanuts and drinks. Kid is looking out the window, munching peanuts like he'd been flying all his life. Priceless.

Now, as to being subjected to other people's kids on airliners, my one BAD experience was a flight from SFO to JFK in 2001. My wife and I were headed to the UK for meetings and some vacation. She was flying on my FF miles and we were in the back of a United flight (couldn't put her in E+ as she didn't have status). She had the window seat, I had the aisle seat and the middle seat was empty. Or so we thought. Just before the door closed a woman with two toddlers and a 6th grader entered and came down the aisle. The 6th grader and one of the toddlers wound up in the seat between us and the woman and other toddler got the aisle seat across from me. I was then treated to having toddlers with full diapers being passed over me for the first half of the flight.

After taking this for a couple hours I went aft to use the head. F/A stopped me and asked what I thought about the situation and was wondering why I wasn't seated in E+ (they have a list of their FF passengers). I told her about my wife, which explained the seating location. As to the kids, well %%^* happens. No chance of being re-seated, the plane was full. I spent a good part of the remainder of the flight talking with the F/As.

We were sure glad they weren't continuing on the LHR on our flight.

Oh, and we've had the seat kickers behind us, too. Some folks are just oblivious.

 

[gprellwitz]

MY ears hurt.

The cat was yeowling before we left the gate.

No way would I travel on an airplane with the cats we've cared for without sedating them first (with medical supervision). They did/do not like to travel! I wouldn't subject them or the fellow passengers to that.

 

[ReverendSlappy]

Are there bad parents? Yep. Do some some bad apples mean that the rest of us should be chastized, be made to stay at home, or to not be allowed to travel? YGBSM! Hypocrites.

As I think I mentioned earlier, it's absolutely unreasonable to jump on these -- or any, really -- parents and label them "bad ones" simply because of one witnessed incident. And of course, people with children shouldn't be "chastised" for so having them, or be "made to stay at home". Of course not.

And as for me, you won't hear me criticize the parents of the kid in question. I'm not averse to admitting that I don't have the first d*mned clue about being a parent. (And while obviously it's not even close to being the same thing) I don't play golf, and don't really have any interest in playing golf, so you golfers out there would never hear me say something like, "well, see, the problem you've got right there is with your wrists..."

 

[tomcat]

amen to frank...

I 2nd that Amen.

 

[gprellwitz]

Hell, no, you're not alone!

We don't have kids and that is by 100% choice.

At restaurants, we don't ask for the "no smoking" section (neither of us smoke), we ask for the "no children" section.

YES! Leslie and I have often said that we wished they offered a No Children section. Actually, we'd like a No Brat section, but there's no way the restaurant could differentiate reliably when they arrived. We also have no children. Also by choice. And that's one of the reasons we have been able to afford to fly. I don't know how those of you with kids do it. Both financially and emotionally, raising kids is DIFFICULT! I have the utmost respect for those who do it well.

Yes, some will (and have) call us selfish, and no, we will not know the love of a child. It's our decision. Regrets? At times. Then we go th Chuck E Cheeses.

 

[grattonja]

I used to be one of those people without kids who hated the tantrums and publich performances that I was subjected to, couldn't understand why the parents didn't get the little b------s under control, etc.

Then I had my daughter. She's mostly an angel (I can say this because she's 7 and 1/2 and hasn't learned how to access the internet yet ), but she has her moments.

Travel is a ***** with kids, guys, plain and simple. You think YOU hate sitting in a terminal with nothing to do but stare at the planes loading up? Try being 7 and doing that. It's dull as dishwater for her, and she gets bored, even when we bring plenty for her to do. And a bored kid will NOT sit still, short of a straight jacket.

While I do believe in physical discipline, and will occasionally impose it, I don't like to. It really does "hurt daddy more than it hurts you". This surprised me. Moreover, you cannot impose physical discipline, like spanking, in public anymore. Trust me. I see the net result of intervention of Children and Youth Services. Young social workers who do not have kids themselves, right out of school, self rightous innocents (if anyone on here is and SW who doesn't fit that mold, I apologize. I can only comment on what I see). I've represented clients charged with assault for physical discipline. You CAN'T do this in public.

It's also hard to take a kid out in public. Mine loves attention and thinks she is an adult (she's an only child), so she can get pretty bratty. Adults often think it's cute and feed it. Other adults, often more old school folks, believe and child should be seen and not heard and don't find it so cute. Now there is an interesting balancing act for a parent to engage in.

I do agree with some who would say there are places that a child probably should not be. Formal restaurants (hey, if you go to a "family friendly" place, there are going to be kids, sorry). Adult parties, you know, cocktail parties, places like that. Entertainment that is more oriented to adults and less to children. Stuff in the evening (my daughter gets tired and whiny. Others get tired and act out. Nighttime entertainment is babysitter time, IMO).

But it is no mean trick being a parent these days. We encourage kids to revel in being children, often to the point of indulging them too much. But society has moved in that direction, for better or worse. And kids DO have to get out and socialize, otherwise they'll be 20 years old thinking it's ok to throw a hissy fit on a plane.

My daughter travels well, mostly. She just stretches out in the back of the 'toga with her kneeboard, and draws. Occasionally she calls traffic. Sometimes, she falls asleep. And, let's face facts, that's the way we'd all rather travel.

Jim G

 

[Henning]

No way would I travel on an airplane with the cats we've cared for without sedating them first (with medical supervision). They did/do not like to travel! I wouldn't subject them or the fellow passengers to that.

Yeah, I agree with that completely. I've had a bunch of cats and only had one that liked to travel in planes & small vehicles (not so much liked as didn't care, a basic feed me pet me and let me sleep cat). Big boats are better, they don't seem to mind that.

 

[AdamZ]

Or dogs and nieces. Never wanted kids, and at 56, have no regrets. Be glad you pups who've decided not to have kids are making the decision now and not 40 years ago, like I did. Back then, the idea of a woman deciding she didn't want kids was heresy. I can't tell you how much abuse I got (not from my family, interestingly enough, but from others). I'll never forget the "you owe it to society because you're smart and relatively affluent" arguments, which I thought were essentially racist. Then there was the colleague who should have known better (BS Harvard, PhD Univ. Chicago) telling me I couldn't be a "complete woman" if I didn't have kids. I told her my husband thought I was pretty complete!

I think there are a lot of childless and one-child (by choice) people out there.

Judy

Judy: makes me chuckle I remeber when I was dating my wife some older folks used to say " So when are you getting married your at that age (25) isn't it about time you got married" Then after I was married we got" So when are you going to have children? Your 30 isn't it about time" I finally figured out how to shut them up. I'd just respond WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO BREAK YOUR HIP? YOUR AT THAT AGE YOU KNOW ISN'T IT ABOUT TIME?"
Long short to each thier own I am so blessed to have a beautiful intelligent and well mannered daughter. My Sister inlaw and her husband are not having kids and iroically it drives me so nuts when folks ask why they don't have kids yet, that I lash out at them and acutally tell them it's none of thier damn business.

 

[astanley]

Judy: makes me chuckle I remeber when I was dating my wife some older folks used to say " So when are you getting married your at that age (25) isn't it about time you got married" Then after I was married we got" So when are you going to have children? Your 30 isn't it about time" I finally figured out how to shut them up. I'd just respond WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO BREAK YOUR HIP? YOUR AT THAT AGE YOU KNOW ISN'T IT ABOUT TIME?"
Long short to each thier own I am so blessed to have a beautiful intelligent and well mannered daughter. My Sister inlaw and her husband are not having kids and iroically it drives me so nuts when folks ask why they don't have kids yet, that I lash out at them and acutally tell them it's none of thier damn business.

Adam,

Jessie and I got married just 4 months ago. (Together 8 years, engaged for a hair under 4)

About a month after the wedding, the questions started. People are always asking "So, when are the kids coming?" and, my personal favorite, "You guys 'knocked up' yet?". We want children. We are planning for it. But there are certain goals (owning a home, the biggest) before we do - so we have decided to wait until a few years.

Just two days ago, I called a family member to tell them about my new job.

me: "I have some good news for you guys - guess what?"
family: "You are having a baby!"
me: "No, I'm taking a new job!"
family: "Oh, why would you call me for that? When are you going to have kids anyways?"
me: "We aren't. I'm impotent"

It works and people stop asking. Then we can claim medical miracle if we have a child.

Cheers,

-Andrew
sick of the pressure... we'll do it on our own time thanks.

 

[Bill]

So when are you getting married your at that age (25)

Your 30 isn't it about time"

They would have wasted a lot of breath with me, married at 37, kid at 39.

 

[Henning]

I'll never forget the "you owe it to society because you're smart and relatively affluent" arguments, which I thought were essentially racist.

There was a 50s scifi short story called The Marching Morons, it won some awards and was in an Arbor anthology I think. Funny read read, one of those Rip van Winkle, wake up in the future stories. It dealt with this subject. Basically The smart quit having children and the dumb bred like rabbitts until there was a handfull of people responsible for running everything for everybody because the greatest part of everybody were too stupid to do anything. There's a lot more to it, but that's the premis. If you're interested, it's a good read. Remember a few years back when Andy Rooney got his a$$ handed to him on a platter for talking about the same thing? There is a grain of truth there. In the interest of full disclosure, I have no children of my own. I haven't avoided it (except early on when I was far too young to be Daddy) and haven't tried for it either. Just has never come to be. I do like kids.

 

[Henning]

me: "I have some good news for you guys - guess what?"
family: "You are having a baby!"
me: "No, I'm taking a new job!"
family: "Oh, why would you call me for that? When are you going to have kids anyways?"
me: "We aren't. I'm impotent"

It works and people stop asking. Then we can claim medical miracle if we have a child.

If it's a boy you'll have to name him Brian. "Look! It's the Messiah!", "I am NOT the Messiah!!!"

 

[ReverendSlappy]

There was a 50s scifi short story called The Marching Morons, it won some awards and was in an Arbor anthology I think. Funny read read, one of those Rip van Winkle, wake up in the future stories. It dealt with this subject. Basically The smart quit having children and the dumb bred like rabbitts until there was a handfull of people responsible for running everything for everybody because the greatest part of everybody were too stupid to do anything. There's a lot more to it, but that's the premis. If you're interested, it's a good read. Remember a few years back when Andy Rooney got his a$$ handed to him on a platter for talking about the same thing? There is a grain of truth there. In the interest of full disclosure, I have no children of my own. I haven't avoided it (except early on when I was far too young to be Daddy) and haven't tried for it either. Just has never come to be. I do like kids.

Sounds like this: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0387808/

 

[alaskaflyer]

selfish

/ˈsɛl

fɪʃ/ [sel-fish] –adjective
1.devoted to or caring only for oneself; concerned primarily with one's own interests, benefits, welfare, etc., regardless of others. 2.characterized by or manifesting concern or care only for oneself: selfish motives.

Hmmm...so for those of you who are having children for selfless reasons...why?

A lot of people I know have children for entirely selfish reasons as well. And I say...when it comes to having children, or not having children, it should be for entirely selfish reasons.

I think society will survive without my kids LOL!

 

[Ken Ibold]

Basically The smart quit having children and the dumb bred like rabbitts until there was a handfull of people responsible for running everything for everybody because the greatest part of everybody were too stupid to do anything.

This is why my wife and I considered it our civic duty to have 3 kids.

 

[woodstock]

I think society will survive without my kids LOL!

The way I see it is this:

There are over 6 billion people on this planet. the fact that I'm not going to add to that is hardly what I'd call a tragedy.

I'm just going to be a really good aunt! I'll take the nieces and nephews on cool trips, they can fly my plane, visit my other homes - all that fun stuff.

 

[alaskaflyer]

The way I see it is this:

There are over 6 billion people on this planet. the fact that I'm not going to add to that is hardly what I'd call a tragedy.

I'm just going to be a really good aunt! I'll take the nieces and nephews on cool trips, they can fly my plane, visit my other homes - all that fun stuff.

That's me - others people's dogs, other people's kids - I'm great with both! Edit: unless they are on an airplane as the first post shows...

 

[Frank Browne]

That's me - others people's dogs, other people's kids - I'm great with both!

I'll loan you my kids, if you'll loan me your airplane.

 

[Greebo]

This thread was warned once to keep it impersonal.

This thread is now closed, pending review for personal attacks.

REMINDER - MATURE behavior is expected in the Spin Zone. Failure to behave in a mature manner will result in you being removed from the Spin Zone.

 

[Greebo]

The thread review is underway. 1 or more posts have been deleted for violations of the rules of conduct and the thread is now re-open for posting.

 

[Chache]

Obviously you don't have kids. It'll be interesting how your theories
work out. Physical punishment does not work .. it just teaches that hitting
and violence is ok. I can recall my daughter having a few melt downs at
that age. I sure never needed to strike her.

Skyhog may not have had kids, but I have. Two of them are older than some here on this board. The other two I helped raise, now have five year olds of their own.

I don't beleive anyone here is saying to beat the kid during melt-down.

If you have waited that long to apply disicipline it's too late.
One has to establish a hierarchy of control. The child, is at the bottom of this hierarchy.
Problem, is that children cannot be intelligently reasoned with until age eight- or more. The only thing they will understand, is pain.

Now again, I'm not advocating the beating of children, which is abuse.
but the spanking that comes from a parent, is the same as the slight nip that an animal gives its young when it becomed botherful. It does no damage, yet lets the youngster know who is boss, and that consequences
do accompany their actions.

Effective discipline has three key components: first, a loving, supportive relationship between parent and child; second, use of positive reinforcement when children behave well; and third, use of punishment when children misbehave.

I think that anyone who says not to spank, is teaching them not that violence is OK, but that bribery is.
IOW, when they are "good" they get praise, presents or whatever.
when they are naughty, they get......what? Time out?
What "punishment" is that?

Read (Proverbs 13:24) which states:
"He who spareth the rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him correcteth him betimes"

and (Proverbs 23:13-14) "Withhold not correction from a child: for if thou strike him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and deliver his soul from hell."

Now, I am far from religious, but, I just happened to look up the old saying
" Spare the rod and spoil the child" and came across the above.



Opinion
Look at all the politicians ( Highly visible) these days that are being indicted for bribery, and corruption.
Most are in their 40's. Children, at the same time period when this "Don't spank" theory appears to have originated (1960's-70's)

They became this, when........last year? Two years ago? Hardly.
It's been going on since they were kids.

I wonder...... if they got spanked.










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