Getting to a cold FBO to get a heater

1

172Pusher

Pre-Flight
Joined
Dec 20, 2021
Messages
33
Display Name
Display name:
172Pusher
So I don't have an engine block heater and want to add one ASAP. No one down in the south does them so I'm planning on flying north a lot to see family.

I'll have to stop for fuel. How fast after shutdown does the engine cool if it the OAT is 0⁰C?

Do I have time to eat a burger or just fuel up and clear prop?

Also, any recommended shop? I'm looking at the tannis and reiff but need a shop.

Appreciate the assistance!
 
172Pusher said:
How fast after shutdown does the engine cool if it the OAT is 0⁰C?
Click to expand...
Cool to what temperature?
172Pusher said:
Do I have time to eat a burger or just fuel up and clear prop?
Click to expand...
Umm, yes, you have plenty of time to refuel or eat a cheeseburger. I’m not sure what you’re expecting to happen if the engine is left off for such a short amount of time.
 
If the OAT is 0C, the engine won't cool down below 32F, so no big deal.
How long depends on how well you tuck it in with a cover / blanket.
 
RyanB said:
Cool to what temperature?

Umm, yes, you have plenty of time to refuel or eat a cheeseburger. I’m not sure what you’re expecting to happen if the engine is left off for such a short amount of time.
Click to expand...
Not really sure. That is why I'm here. these are the joys of learning to fly in the south!

Bet you've never hit a turkey buzzard
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
If the OAT is 0C, the engine won't cool down below 32F, so no big deal.
How long depends on how well you tuck it in with a cover / blanket.
Click to expand...
Thank you. I seen folks posting the blanket trick. I will do that.

Appreciate the assistance!
 
172Pusher said:
Not really sure. That is why I'm here. these are the joys of learning to fly in the south!

Bet you've never hit a turkey buzzard
Click to expand...
Leaving it shut off for a short time like that isn’t going to make any noticeable difference or harm the engine when going to restart; if it did, a lot of general aviation engines would be trashed rather quickly.

Never hit a turkey buzzard, but I have hit a deer while landing - ‘doh!
 
The club plane I used to fly didn't even have cowl plugs, but I never had any trouble getting it started after a lunch run on a cold day. And I'm talking 0 degrees F, not C. Even after a couple hours there still enough warmth in there. Cowl plugs do help a lot if you have a set.
 
Yep. What others have said. Shut it down. If you have cowl plugs, pop em in. If not, don't sweat it. Go have yer burger. Take yer time. Chat with the other pilots. Relax. Fuel up. Clear prop. Off ya go.

I have a Tanis and have never even thought about plugging it in while stopping at a fly-in or on a burger run, even in the freezing cold.
 
Thanks folks. I was pretty worried I appreciate the assistance!
 
Where are you heading?

re shop.
 
I hit a turkey buzzard in my car and I almost threw up is was so disgusting. I was able to pull over pretty quick and get out. Not sure how that would play out in a plane.
 
I would also point out that if you were to land somewhere like ONZ, there is no place to plug in without arranging for a hangar.
The school aircraft get plugged in overnight, but sit on the ramp all day...
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
If the OAT is 0C, the engine won't cool down below 32F, so no big deal.
How long depends on how well you tuck it in with a cover / blanket.
Click to expand...
Thank you Captain Obvious!

Lol. I love how you sneak things like that into your posts. I also like how some others don’t seem to catch it. Sneaky fuddymucker.

:D
 
Chris Scherry said:
I hit a turkey buzzard in my car and I almost threw up is was so disgusting. I was able to pull over pretty quick and get out. Not sure how that would play out in a plane.
Click to expand...

Well just pulling over wouldn’t be easy. But if your name is Trevor, you could still do a hasty exit. It’s all good.
 
We flew up to the Dells the day after new years. Spent the day splashing around the water park while the plane was parked outside. IIRC, it was about 15F. Started right up when we left.
 
Everyone will have their own opinions but generally I think under -1C you’d want a preheat, but flying somewhere and leaving it for a good hour the engine will still be a little warm. Although I couldn’t get mine started in -6C, I’ll soon find out if that’s user error or too cold for my baby.
 
“ Starting your engine is a terrible thing to do “ as the ad says. Cylinders and Cam Lobes are lubricated by “ splash & spray”.Rather than a certain temp let your dipstick tell the story. If oil is “ lard” and will not run off the stick you may not get good lubrication till the engine warms up.

As said in # 13 any A &P should be able to install. Minor Alteration = no 337 or IA!
 
Park facing downwind, with styrofoam plugs in the cowl air intakes if you have them. Assuming two plugs, tie them together with a short rope so the prop will rip them out if you forget to remove them! DAMHIK!
 
A moving blanket and plenty of duct tape. Make it look fancy.
 
Magman said:
Where are you heading?

re shop.
Click to expand...
no shop picked out yet.

A friend's shop estimated 20, yup 20 hours of labor because they wanted to overestimate. Said they never did them.

The Reiff look like a real simple install. I think 2 hours max if I find mech that let me help with work.

Any one have suggestions?
Surprised shops do not advertise stuff like this and oil changes.

Thank you again everyone for the advice and experiences. It rarely get cold here so my school didn't teach about cold engines.

Appreciate the assistance!
 
172Pusher said:
So I don't have an engine block heater and want to add one ASAP. No one down in the south does them so I'm planning on flying north a lot to see family.

I'll have to stop for fuel. How fast after shutdown does the engine cool if it the OAT is 0⁰C?

Do I have time to eat a burger or just fuel up and clear prop?

Also, any recommended shop? I'm looking at the tannis and reiff but need a shop.

Appreciate the assistance!
Click to expand...
I installed my own, with my ap supervision. Installing the cylinder bands should be straightforward. The sump heaters are more involved but still not difficult.
 
If you have cowl plugs you might use them. I flew out to Elko, NV when it was about 15F, left the plane for 2 hours and it was still warm to the touch when I got back. I did use cowl plugs.
 
RyanB said:
Leaving it shut off for a short time like that isn’t going to make any noticeable difference or harm the engine when going to restart; if it did, a lot of general aviation engines would be trashed rather quickly.

Never hit a turkey buzzard, but I have hit a deer while landing - ‘doh!
Click to expand...


Put in your cowl plugs, cowl cover if you’ve got one. Even with plugs alone, the motor will be warm enough to start for an hour, hour and a half, unless it’s well below 32f and or extremely windy. 40 years of northern tier flying. And I’ve hit a whole flock of your winged southern beasts at 600 knots and 300 feet. It wasn’t pretty. Fly safe.
 
Even down to 20F you have a few hours before it’s a concern.
 
If you put a Tannis or its ilk in bring an extension cord with you. I've generally found places are amenable to plugging you in provided it's physically possible.

My biggest laugh was returning to Dulles after not being based there for ten years. I asked the FBO if they could either put me in a hangar or drag me close enough to the building to plug in the block heater. I came out the next early December morning to find my plane sitting by itself in the middle of the corporate hanger... with the block heater plugged in.
 
lycoming preheat.jpg I have started my engine many times down to 10 degrees F without preheat and no damage. Since I do my own major overhauls I am sure I would have noticed. If you can get it to start on AVGAS no need to preheat. I once asked a Porsche dealer about the need preheat the old Porsche air cooled engine and he thought I was crazy and that engine was also used in airplanes.

The main advantage of preheating is avoiding frosting plugs if you need multiple attempts to start and it's easier on the battery and starter.
 
I think there is a "time since last run" effect that would have a major effect on cam damage potential on cold start. IOW if it was just run yesterday maybe you could get by with a 10 degF start without preheat, but if it had been two weeks, that cam would be awfully dry - and dry for a while after starting. It will be a while after an engine is running before an oil fog is be created in the crankcase. The cam has to depend on that fog because I don't think there are any slinger provisions on any engine (especially Lycomings) on crankshaft parts to quickly get the cam lubricated on a cold start.
 
nrpetersen said:
I think there is a "time since last run" effect that would have a major effect on cam damage potential on cold start. IOW if it was just run yesterday maybe you could get by with a 10 degF start without preheat, but if it had been two weeks, that cam would be awfully dry - and dry for a while after starting. It will be a while after an engine is running before an oil fog is be created in the crankcase. The cam has to depend on that fog because I don't think there are any slinger provisions on any engine (especially Lycomings) on crankshaft parts to quickly get the cam lubricated on a cold start.
Click to expand...


I tend to agree with this, if it has ran within the last 24hrs and is warm enough to start I doubt it will cause much engine wear, especially if using multi-viscosity oil.

The bigger problem with not preheating is that below about 20F you may not get the engine to start. The typical symptoms are it will fire and run a few seconds on the prime and die. Rinse and repeat may get the engine warmed up enough to run, but it also may pool enough fuel in engine compartment to start a fire during one of the starting attempts. It may also frost over the plugs where it will just crank and not fire, which tends to lead to more priming and and even greater chance of an engine/intake fire occurring.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
Actually colder WX, by increasing viscosity, keeps the oil on engine parts even longer. In any case I have started many times around 10 degrees F and no engine damage. Once an idea becomes "common knowledge" it is never tested and proven to be true and goes on and on. I question everything and want proof. ( I was not very popular in church).

I have fuel injection and never had an engine fire in 8000 flight hours but one needs to have a system to start at 10 degrees. After priming by running the fuel pump a long time I then wait several minutes for the fuel to vaporise. When I crank the engine my finger is on the pump switch in case I need to add more fuel to keep the engine running. Multiple attempts at starting will frost plugs.
 
Last edited:
If you placed two gallon jugs of warm water next to the plane for two hours would they have time to freeze?

For a break of 2 hours, you have 1-1/2 to 2 gallons in the sump and a bunch of warm steel parts to cool.
 
Clip4 said:
If you placed two gallon jugs of warm water next to the plane for two hours would they have time to freeze?
Click to expand...

Not sure why this test would be a quantitatively useful indicator of the rate of cooling of an aircraft piston engine.

Water has a four-fold higher specific heat capacity, as compared to aluminum. It’s eight fold higher as compared to steel.

So water tends to cool more slowly than those metals, but only if everything else is the same: mass, surface area, insulation, conduction to other surfaces, and movement of the surrounding air. And none of those things are the same, not even close, when you compare an aircraft engine in a cowl to a jug of water on the pavement.
 
NoHeat said:
Not sure why this test would be a quantitatively useful indicator of the rate of cooling of an aircraft piston engine.

Water has a four-fold higher specific heat capacity, as compared to aluminum. It’s eight fold higher as compared to steel.

So water tends to cool more slowly than those metals, but only if everything else is the same: mass, surface area, insulation, conduction to other surfaces, and movement of the surrounding air. And none of those things are the same, not even close, when you compare an aircraft engine in a cowl to a jug of water on the pavement.
Click to expand...

Go lay on the ground for a while.
 
people can argue about engine damage or no engine damage (though I think I'll go with the engine manufacturer recommendations), but the biggest reason why I like to preheat, even at 32 F, is the engine turns over much easier and starts quicker.
 
i don’t like the bitter cold.
My dog doesn’t like the bitter cold.
We left Buffalo, NY and moved to Arizona because the furnace started on July 4.
I live in the Denver area which has maybe a handful of miserably cold days a year, and the snow melts in a day or so.

Why should my engine be any different?





But I’m wearing my Bills tshirt everywhere this weekend!
 
Here's a data point...
Went to lunch this morning, arrived at 11:30, left at 2:45, so 3.25 hours. Had cowl plugs in, engine still felt warm when I reached in to check the oil. Started up and oil temp was 90 degrees. Ambient temp was around 25F when I arrived and a bit above freezing when I left.
 
Just go with the pad that preheats the sump. Takes 45 minutes to install and they do plenty great for the cost that most of us fly in.
 
172Pusher said:
So I don't have an engine block heater and want to add one ASAP. No one down in the south does them so I'm planning on flying north a lot to see family.

I'll have to stop for fuel. How fast after shutdown does the engine cool if it the OAT is 0⁰C?

Do I have time to eat a burger or just fuel up and clear prop?

Also, any recommended shop? I'm looking at the tannis and reiff but need a shop.

Appreciate the assistance!
Click to expand...

What engine do you have? Size matters. Are you currently flying the 172? An O320 or similar will heat just fine with a sump pad heater. I had one in my Cherokee. A big Continental or Lycoming would be much better served with sump, cylinder and oil cooler heaters. Reiff offers a number of options for larger engines. I’ve got the single sump strip with cylinder bands and the oil cooler heater. I use a full insulated cowl cover. Even when the OAT is below zero, my oil temps are at the bottom of the green band immediately after start. Pitch cycles perfectly every time. No cold oil in the oil cooler. TSIO-520. You get what you pay for.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top