Getting ready for multi checkride - grill me!

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MIFlyer

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MIFlyer
I'm taking my private, non instrument AMEL checkride on the 27th in a Travelair.

I'm a 180 hour private pilot (all my time is 172s and 182s). I have no twin or retract time.

I have done the King School's "ready for multi engines" videos and quizzes.

I have read David Robson's excellent book "Multi-Engine Piston" which has been the clearest aviation book I've ever read.

Between now and the checkride, I"m going to go for 3-4 flight lessons plus ground with the instructor.

I'll also read the AFM a few times and make sure I know the checklists and power settigns well (both normal operations and zero thrust).

Anything else I should do to get the most out of this training and maximize my chances of passing? Anything you want to ask me that I'm likely to need to know so I have to look up the answer and learn it? @Ted
 
I'm puzzled...you scheduled the check ride but have not flown with your MEI yet? Ambitious and confident....nice!

My only tip...and this is coming form someone signed off for my multi ride many years ago but was not able to take the ride before getting very rusty with it...(the plane broke)...
and that tip is to allow yourself a few more flight lessons. You don't say how long each of your 3 or 4 lessons will be....might be enough time ... but sometimes it's good to learn and practice something, then have some time off to "sleep on it" to allow the ideas to digest in the mind a bit....

I was going for instrument rated add on so maybe a little bit more demanding, but still....my suggestion is more general about trying to rush in a learning situation.

regardless, looks like you are probably well read on the subject anyway. Good luck with it!
 
Thank you! I am not trying to rush, except for the weather. I'm flying an hour away for the lessons but plan for all day Saturday/Sunday (some ground, some in the plane not running, some flying) then a refresher Wednesday and the checkride Thursday afternoon. CFI recommended this (he's in year 50 of doing this. :)

Airplane is a week out of annual, so I'm hoping it stays in top shape through my ride.

I'm actually fine if it turns into 10 hours of flying time, I'm going to need that (and more) for insurance anyway, but want to make sure I nail the ride. :)
 
Good luck! There’s oral prep on YouTube and plenty of multi engine materials online. Have a look and prepare!
 
I took my multi in a Duchess and owned a travelair. Be prepared for the oral. The flying part is the easy part .Good luck.
 
MIFlyer said:
that's on my list after this. I'll work on IR over the winter.
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Only problem is I believe you will need to do a supplemental multi ride after the IR. Otherwise your multi will have a VFR only restriction.

Others please feel free to correct me if that’s not the case.
 
MIFlyer said:
thanks! Any oral gotchas you can recall to grill me with?
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You can count on aircraft systems and factors of Vmc being discussed. Presumably this is an add on rating - I’d suggest sitting down with the ACS and determining exactly what you’ll be tested on. The oral will be abbreviated but there are still things to cover.
 
What is the critical engine and why

single engine, if you stall, which wing stalls first and why

what is the blue line. How is it determined. Why is flying below it dangerous
 
MIFlyer said:
Any oral gotchas you can recall to grill me with?
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Factors affecting Vmc is always a good one. Be able to explain what the 5 degrees of bank does when operating OEI (one engine inoperative), and why less than that is “correct” for most any OEI flying you’ll do (other than the Vmc demo.)

View Martin Pauly’s multi engine training videos with Doug Rozendaal…


 
Initial Fix said:
single engine, if you stall, which wing stalls first and why
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I’m curious about this one. I wouldn’t have thought it was guaranteed to be a specific wing, depending on other circumstances.

of course there’s the smart ass answer “the wing that exceeds the critical angle of attack first” lol
 
Martin & Doug's videos are better ground school than you'll likely get with almost any MEI who is teaching in a Travel Air.

Know the Systems. Crossfeed on the TravelAir can be a gotcha. Use drag to slow the airplane down, not power reductions. Find the single engine power setting that works for the approach and then use drag to get the descent angle you need. The fewer power changes you make the more likely you'll have a successful outcome. Don't skip leg day!
 
Kritchlow said:
Only problem is I believe you will need to do a supplemental multi ride after the IR. Otherwise your multi will have a VFR only restriction.

Others please feel free to correct me if that’s not the case.
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That's correct. For my own reasons, I want to get the multi done and will accomplish the IR later, potentially in a multi.
 
mondtster said:
You can count on aircraft systems and factors of Vmc being discussed. Presumably this is an add on rating - I’d suggest sitting down with the ACS and determining exactly what you’ll be tested on. The oral will be abbreviated but there are still things to cover.
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Thanks, I will look at the ACS. I'm an oddball since I'm non IR and non commercial and most people are doing an add on to those vs private.

I think I will have basic airwork and some OEI scenarios but need to go through ACS. I'll also document, with the instructor on the ground, the details of each maneuver (config, tolerances) for this airplane.
 
tonycondon said:
Martin & Doug's videos are better ground school than you'll likely get with almost any MEI who is teaching in a Travel Air.

Know the Systems. Crossfeed on the TravelAir can be a gotcha. Use drag to slow the airplane down, not power reductions. Find the single engine power setting that works for the approach and then use drag to get the descent angle you need. The fewer power changes you make the more likely you'll have a successful outcome. Don't skip leg day!
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Tony, this is great advice, thank you. Getting used to what happens when you add gear will be a big change for me and how I manage approaches and energy.
 
frfly172 said:
Know how the systems work ,I had to draw the fuel system and explain the cross over procedure.
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Thanks, I've printed the POH and am goign through it to get the v speeds as well as procedures like fuel management in different phases of flight and scenarios. I also need to learn how to calculate accelerate stop, accelerate go, W&B, etc.
 
Initial Fix said:
What is the critical engine and why

single engine, if you stall, which wing stalls first and why

what is the blue line. How is it determined. Why is flying below it dangerous
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OOH, good ones

Single engine, the wing with the inoperative engine stalls first as it has less airflow from the propeller wash.

Blue line is VYSE, which is the IAS taht represents maximum climb performance when one engine is oeprating and the other is feathered.

It is determined primarily by the ability of the rudder to overcome the assymetric thrust without causing a fin stall.

(please correct me if wrong)
 
don't be shy about getting extra training too. Make sure you're ready. My record giving Private Pilot Multi checkrides...is not good. I can't exactly explain why. It is a small sample size.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Factors affecting Vmc is always a good one. Be able to explain what the 5 degrees of bank does when operating OEI (one engine inoperative), and why less than that is “correct” for most any OEI flying you’ll do (other than the Vmc demo.)

View Martin Pauly’s multi engine training videos with Doug Rozendaal…


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Thank you, I will go back to Martin's videos too. the 5 degrees of bank corrects the sideskip created by the inoperative engine and rudder and aeleron forces needed to correct for the dead engine.

not banking will increase VMC

Factors affecting VMC:
Weight
Density altitude
CG
rudder area
HP output of operating engine
drag on dead engine side (windmilling/feathered, cowl flaps out or not)
 
tonycondon said:
don't be shy about getting extra training too. Make sure you're ready. My record giving Private Pilot Multi checkrides...is not good. I can't exactly explain why. It is a small sample size.
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Thank you. I take this very seriously. I plan to buy and get another 30-40 hours of dual after I purchase (working on airplane transition and the IR) int he new plane, but I want to correctly earn the AMEL ticket next week, so I'm not taking it lightly.
 
MIFlyer said:
Thank you, I will go back to Martin's videos too. the 5 degrees of bank corrects the sideskip created by the inoperative engine and rudder and aeleron forces needed to correct for the dead engine.

not banking will increase VMC

Factors affecting VMC:
Weight
Density altitude
CG
rudder area
HP output of operating engine
drag on dead engine side (windmilling/feathered, cowl flaps out or not)
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I should have said the factors that are used to determine Vmc in certification…what conditions would have to be in place for an airplane to lose directional control at the published speed?
 
MIFlyer said:
I have no twin or retract time.
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This whole thing seems pretty odd to me, but can he even take the multi checkride in a complex airplane without the complex endorsement?
 
mryan75 said:
This whole thing seems pretty odd to me, but can he even take the multi checkride in a complex airplane without the complex endorsement?
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No the DPE will confirm that he has a complex endorsement before the test begins
 
mryan75 said:
This whole thing seems pretty odd to me, but can he even take the multi checkride in a complex airplane without the complex endorsement?
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The instructor simply provides the endorsement prior to the checkride. This case isn’t really any different than a student pilot learning to fly in a conventional gear, high performance, or complex airplane. The proper endorsements must be provided prior to solo or prior to the checkride, depending on circumstances.
 
Serious answer: Know and understand VMC.

Sorta serious answer: Make sure your legs are in shape, probably right leg more than left. Multi training is a lot of single engine flying.

Not serious answer, the examiner asked me this on my multi commercial ride: You are cruising at altitude when both engines suddenly stop producing power, what do you do...

Me: Mixtures rich, props forward, throttles forward, check fuel pumps, check fuel switch over valve positions, check mags...

Examiner: Can you think of anything else.??

Me: Well, I can only think that I would call my cousin Roy.

Examiner: Call your cousin Roy.?? What on earth for.??

Me: Because he ain't never seen a plane crash like the one we are about to have....

Examiner: Laughing.... ok, let's go fly.!!
 
mryan75 said:
This whole thing seems pretty odd to me, but can he even take the multi checkride in a complex airplane without the complex endorsement?
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I’ll earn the endorsement while training.

2.6 hours in the plane today and 4 hours of ground.

Started to get tired at the end of the 10 hour day. Try again tomorrow.

Airwork pretty good, dissatisfied with landings exacerbated by very squiggly winds at the threshold that even challenged the instructor.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I believe all planes should be twins…. Lol, I’m in love.

175 kts at 55% at 15 gph

Holy crap is it fun

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Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Flew another 2.9 and a few more hours of ground yesterday.

Started OEI work - surprise to actually feel the difference between normal power, windmilling, feathered and zero thrust. Did a full feather cycle and restart, I would say the hardest was when it was starting to restart, but was basically windmilling. I was expecting it (subconsciously) to start helping as the motor comes back to life, but it's obviously WORSE than it was when feathered until the thing starts actually producing power greater than drag. I knew this academically, but it was great to actually experience and learn it.

Landings and ground handling are getting markedly better. Remember, this is my first time with a folding gear too, so I'm learning complex and multi at once! Airmanship is getting pretty decent (mostly to private standards or better). Day 1 I felt like a 10 hour private pilot student, yesterday I felt better. I can taxi well, land decently and airwork is coming along. Systems and flows are becoming more natural. I'm still asking the instructor for help reading off the checklists after phase changes, as the plane moves a lot faster than I'm used to, and I'm catching up to it, but not 100% there by any means.

I'm going back for another two days in a couple weeks, followed by a mock checkride, then checkride, so I'll probably get up to 10ish hours by the time I'm ready, if anyone is following along. I'm very fortunate to have the instructor I do, he's got a TON of experience from military rotorcraft, fixed wing from cubs to transport category, civilian time, and thousands of hours of instruction in all of the above as well.
 
Thanks for the write up. Please keep us updated and on the play-by-play! I'm starting my journey as well (first flight on Thursday).

Here's my Q -> Cite the FAR reference for the "S" in the SMACFUM mnemonic. Alternately, tell me why I shouldn't use SMACFUM as a mnemonic (or §23.149-pre rewrite) to learn the Vmc airspeed/factors.
 
kaiser said:
Thanks for the write up. Please keep us updated and on the play-by-play! I'm starting my journey as well (first flight on Thursday).

Here's my Q -> Cite the FAR reference for the "S" in the SMACFUM mnemonic. Alternately, tell me why I shouldn't use SMACFUM as a mnemonic (or §23.149-pre rewrite) to learn the Vmc airspeed/factors.
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Thanks Kaiser! Will do! (Busy at work this AM, but will add this question to my studying). What are you training in?
 
kaiser said:
Here's my Q -> Cite the FAR reference for the "S" in the SMACFUM mnemonic.
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What are the things that SMACFUM stands for? I’ve never heard that one. (Not that I’m a big fan of mnemonics to start with.)
 
MauleSkinner said:
What are the things that SMACFUM stands for? I’ve never heard that one. (Not that I’m a big fan of mnemonics to start with.)
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It summarizes where the Mfg puts Vmc per Part 23 (or 25). Std Day, Max pwer, Aft CG, Critical engine windmilling, Flaps T/O-gear up, Up to 5* bank, Most unfavorable weight. I like mnemonics as it helps me organize my thoughts around a topic - from there I can dive deeper as needed.

My question might be a trick question since there is no Part 23 reference that I can find for the Standard Day reference. Also, SMACFUM doesn't account for being airborne / out of ground effect and trim set to take off - so maybe SMAACFUMT works better?

MIFlyer said:
Thanks Kaiser! Will do! (Busy at work this AM, but will add this question to my studying). What are you training in?
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I'm doing it in a DA42.
 
kaiser said:
It summarizes where the Mfg puts Vmc per Part 23 (or 25). Std Day, Max pwer, Aft CG, Critical engine windmilling, Flaps T/O-gear up, Up to 5* bank, Most unfavorable weight. I like mnemonics as it helps me organize my thoughts around a topic - from there I can dive deeper as needed.

My question might be a trick question since there is no Part 23 reference that I can find for the Standard Day reference. Also, SMACFUM doesn't account for being airborne / out of ground effect and trim set to take off - so maybe SMAACFUMT works better?
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Standard day would be 23.2105 (prior to rewrite), but it’s not applicable to all airplanes…

edit: 23.45 looks like the current reference
§ 23.2105 Performance data.
(a) Unless otherwise prescribed, an airplane must meet the performance requirements of this subpart in -

(1) Still air and standard atmospheric conditions at sea level for all airplanes; and

(2) Ambient atmospheric conditions within the operating envelope for levels 1 and 2 high-speed and levels 3 and 4 airplanes.
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Nor is Critical Engine windmilling…it can be feathered if equipped with an autofeather system that’s proven reliable. Unfortunately I can’t find the reference now, because I can’t figure out how to navigate historical FARs.
 
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