Getting private pilot license with night flying restriction

[numegil]

I'm colorblind, so my medical certificate has the "not valid for night flying or by light signals" restriction. I know I can get a SODA to remove the restriction, but I'm wondering what happens if I don't pass.

One of the requirements for getting a license is 3 hours of night flying, 10 takeoffs and landings at night, and a night dual cross country.

Are those required even if I won't be able to do any of them solo, ever?

Also, I tried getting some practice light gun signals from a tower today. The red was really obvious, but I had a lot of trouble distinguishing between the green and white lights. I have a feeling it doesn't even have to do with colorblindness, I'm just not used to distinguishing shades of green as light as those from white. Does anyone have any tips on how to tell them apart besides practicing 1000 times?

 

[Sac Arrow]

I dunno dude, either you can see them or you can't. As a more practical matter, I would worry if I could distinguish cockpit instrumentation and charts correctly. I suppose that isn't an issue if you're cleared for day VFR.

 

[Sac Arrow]

Stupid question, but is your restriction on your certificate itself or on your medical? (Doesn't make a difference to me, but might to those more knowledgeable in the subject.)

 

[numegil]

Stupid question, but is your restriction on your certificate itself or on your medical? (Doesn't make a difference to me, but might to those more knowledgeable in the subject.)

I'm a student pilot, so I don't have a certificate, just the medical.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

I'm a student pilot, so I don't have a certificate, just the medical.

Hmm. Didn't you do a color test for that?

 

[poadeleted20]

I'm colorblind, so my medical certificate has the "not valid for night flying or by light signals" restriction. I know I can get a SODA to remove the restriction, but I'm wondering what happens if I don't pass.

The restriction stays on your medical. Your Private pilot certificate will not have any mention of it, but since the restriction will remain on your medical, you will not be permitted to act as a required pilot crewmember in those proscribed circumstances.

One of the requirements for getting a license is 3 hours of night flying, 10 takeoffs and landings at night, and a night dual cross country. Are those required even if I won't be able to do any of them solo, ever?

Yes, they are still required. There is no exemption from the night requirements in the regulations for this situation. Of course, your instructor will be with you on those night training flights and acting as PIC, so you will still be legal.

 

[JHW]

cloud cover and amount of ambient light make a difference for colorblind folks seeing the light gun. Try it in some varying conditions. Everyone i've known who tried the SODA with real a real tower light gun was able to do it.

 

[numegil]

Hmm. Didn't you do a color test for that?

Yeah, I flunked it, hence the restriction. Passing the SODA would remove the restriction.

Yes, they are still required. There is no exemption from the night requirements in the regulations for this situation. Of course, your instructor will be with you on those night training flights and acting as PIC, so you will still be legal.

That's what I figured, thanks!

 

[bbchien]

Hmm. Didn't you do a color test for that?

He did, and he failed it.

numegil, you get to take the OCVT twice, and if you fail twice the "not valid for flight at night or by light gun color signal" is there FOREVER.

Practice, practice practice.

I have a feeling it doesn't even have to do with colorblindness, I'm just not used to distinguishing shades of green as light as those from white

That is alarming, becuase that is what EVERY red-green deuteranope says when confronted with this situation. You have to get over that notion or you WILL FAIL TWICE.

Practice, practice, practice. You can do this. I had a Tritanope (troubles with al three color receptors, not just two) who has an unlimited 1st class waiver, because the standard for color vision remains, "Color vision adequate for airman duties". And to prove that, he memorized the section colors, the MALSR instrument approach colors, everything, and demonstrated that in the airplane with the inspector.

He never has to worry about a set of color dots ever again, at age 23 (he passed at age 18). It took us about 5 hour's work in the airplane and in front of the tower.

 

[BillTIZ]

Why if we've been passing the color dot, what's the number, test for years, do we have to do it every time we renew our medical?

Do people become colorblind with age?

 

[numegil]

numegil, you get to take the OCVT twice, and if you fail twice the "not valid for flight at night or by light gun color signal" is there FOREVER.

Is that twice by day, or once by day and once by night? I read somewhere that if you don't pass it by day, the "not valid by light gun signal" sticks around forever, but you can still try to test out of the night restriction at night.

 

[bbchien]

Is that twice by day, or once by day and once by night? I read somewhere that if you don't pass it by day, the "not valid by light gun signal" sticks around forever, but you can still try to test out of the night restriction at night.

First by day, then by night.

 

[X3 Skier]

Just wondering, are there degrees of color deficiency? Back in the day, I always failed the book of dots but always passed the box of yarn.

Never bothered to take the OVCT or anything else when I resumed flying and now have the limitation and don't really mind.

Cheers

 

[Dr. O]

There are variations in the ability to distinguish colors. I can pass all the dot and yarn tests you can dream up - and have given any number of vision tests in my career and I can always see the various colors.
Never knew there was anything going on until at medical school taking histopathology as an extra course when I had trouble with the final exam on the microscope slides.
He had old, and treasured, slides of pathology some going back to the early 1900's. They had faded with age (some). Trouble was, some of the ones where the fading had occurred were ones where the pathology was demonstrated by slight variations in the take up of stains. The pale salmon cells and the just slightly more reddish ones looked alike to me.
Once he and I figured it out he gave me a makeup exam with newer slides (I'd already seen/memorized the original slides which is why he only uses them once, just for each class's final exam) Since the colors were brighter on the newer slides I had a 100% on that test.

My daughter has an interior designer bent. Once we were at a shop and she had various bolts of pale pink cloth laid out on a table and she and the shop owner were discussing how this bolt matched the sofa more closely than that one. The two bolts were identical to me and I said so. (She is also a doc and knows about my color vision). The shop owner hauled the bolts over to a color matching machine (for paint) and had it print a curve for both bolts. There was about 5% more red on the one bolt than the other. They both could see the difference clearly, I couldn't. She said it was a good thing she inherited her mothers vision or she would never have forgiven me.

So that explains why I never became a world famous artist or a giant in the pathology field. (sigh)

 

[ctn830]

Hi! What is a SODA or OCVT test? I just got my medical certificate and have the same issue. I have the "no night flying or color signal control" restriction. My doctor said they may be ways to remove it. Are the above tests a way to lift the restriction? I would assume so. Especially with today's glass cockpit technology. Just started ground school for my private pilot license. I will do anything.

Help!

 

[OkieAviator]

I had this conversation with a friend of mine who is both a pilot and colorblind. He only did the night flying in training because it was dual. Since then (8 years ago) he has not flown nights nor does he intend too. I'm not sure what his medical or license says about it but for him he's just not comfortable doing it.

 

[Stewartb]

Hi! What is a SODA or OCVT test? I just got my medical certificate and have the same issue. I have the "no night flying or color signal control" restriction. My doctor said they may be ways to remove it. Are the above tests a way to lift the restriction? I would assume so. Especially with today's glass cockpit technology. Just started ground school for my private pilot license. I will do anything.

Help!

SODA is a statement of demonstrated ability. http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...am/ame/guide/app_process/exam_tech/item23-24/

OCVT is an operational color vision test. http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...m/ame/guide/app_process/exam_tech/item52/amd/

Google is a search engine.

 

[warthog1984]

Hi! What is a SODA or OCVT test? I just got my medical certificate and have the same issue. I have the "no night flying or color signal control" restriction. My doctor said they may be ways to remove it. Are the above tests a way to lift the restriction? I would assume so. Especially with today's glass cockpit technology. Just started ground school for my private pilot license. I will do anything.

Help!

Yes. Have your CFI ask the tower for sample light gun signals on a quiet day during taxi/landing. Practice, and then contact the FSDO to do the actual test.

 

[jspilot]

I had this conversation with a friend of mine who is both a pilot and colorblind. He only did the night flying in training because it was dual. Since then (8 years ago) he has not flown nights nor does he intend too. I'm not sure what his medical or license says about it but for him he's just not comfortable doing it.

This is exactly my story except I've been a private pilot for 4 years. I do hope to get the colorblind restriction off one day because I am batting around the idea of getting a commercial license in the next couple of years.

 

[ctn830]

Yes. Have your CFI ask the tower for sample light gun signals on a quiet day during taxi/landing. Practice, and then contact the FSDO to do the actual test.

Yes i heard about this in addition to alternative tests. something about a lantern test also. On pilot said not to be discouraged. there are legitimate ways to overcome it.

Been doing research on corrective lenses for color blindness and how it make significant improvement. Does anyone know if FAA allows it?

 

[warthog1984]

Yes i heard about this in addition to alternative tests. something about a lantern test also. On pilot said not to be discouraged. there are legitimate ways to overcome it.

Been doing research on corrective lenses for color blindness and how it make significant improvement. Does anyone know if FAA allows it?

There are various "in office" tests, but the light gun / lantern test is the final arbiter. Basically, the FAA wants to make sure you can distinguish the runway lights and beacons at night and understand light signals if the electrics go kaput.

 

[Gabriele DeVito]

Hello, I am colorblind, and I want to get my PPL if I can Identify the different colors do you think i can get a PPL and not be limited to daytime

 

[mcmanigle]

Hello, I am colorblind, and I want to get my PPL if I can Identify the different colors do you think i can get a PPL and not be limited to daytime

Strong work on the 7-year-later reply, but my understanding is that not much has changed:

To get a PPL, you need to (at least one time) get a third-class medical. Part of that medical is a color vision test. If you pass that test, you have no problem (until next time you renew your medical). If you fail that initial color vision test, you will get a medical certificate that says "not valid for night flying or by light signals." Step 1 is to do your best on this first, medical office, test. Different doctors have different color books (older ones, newer ones, etc), and some have tests (like the lantern test) different from books. Obviously, if you can pass the test in the doctor's office, you don't have to worry about anything to follow. So try to find a doctor who will tell you exactly what test they have, whether they have good lights in the room where you will take it, etc etc.

If you fail the doctor's office color vision test, and get a medical that says "not valid for night flying or by light signals," you can still get that restriction removed by taking a flight test in an airplane. First, you will go up in a plane with an examiner during the day, who will ask the tower to flash different colored lights at you. They will also make you point out colors on the aviation map. If you pass that, the restriction is removed from your medical, and you no longer need to take the doctor's office color vision test ever again.

If you fail the daytime flight test, you can take a separate nighttime flight test. If you pass that one, your medical restriction becomes "not valid for daytime flight by light color signals" or something like that. You can fly at night. Nobody intentionally flies by light signals anyway, so it's not much of a restriction. If you fail that test, there is absolutely no going back and re-testing, and you will have"not valid for night flying or by light signals" forever.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

I for one have no problem with resurrecting old threads. I don’t understand why people make an issue out of it.

 

[mcmanigle]

I for one have no problem with resurrecting old threads. I don’t understand why people make an issue out of it.

I agree, in cases like this where it's basically the exact same topic. I think there's something slightly less complimentary to be said about posting "wait how does this compare to a dual G5 setup" on a decade-old classifieds ad for a GNS430.

 

[Gabriele DeVito]

ok thanks that make me feel much better at getting a PPL.

 

[G-force]

Color vision deficiency is not a "yes" or "no" thing, some people are slightly color vision deficient, others severely deficient. You need to find out where on the scale you fall. If you can tell the different colors of the lights in the airport environment and the red/white/green from the tower, and see the different colors on the sectionals then you should have no problem having the restriction removed.

 

[kmacht]

I'm curious. If your medical had the night restriction on it due to being color blind, what happens if you decide to switch to basic med. Is there no longer a legal night restriction?

 

[Dave Theisen]

I for one have no problem with resurrecting old threads. I don’t understand why people make an issue out of it.

Get called out for replying to a necropost, or get called out for not using the search function if you start a new thread. Sometimes you just can win around here.

 

[Eric Brunelle]

I have the SODA. Failed the “dots” test, failed the “black box” test at the FISDO, then passed the light gun test by the skin of my teeth. I have no issue with PAPI lights. Many hours of night flying now, but I was restricted for my first 10 years.

 

[Martin Pauly]

One of the requirements for getting a license is 3 hours of night flying, 10 takeoffs and landings at night, and a night dual cross country.

Are those required even if I won't be able to do any of them solo, ever?

Back to the original question - there are no solo requirements for night flying for the private pilot certificate. My suggestion is: do the training with your CFI (who will be pilot in command); it'll be valuable in twilight or if ever needed in case of an emergency.

I am not aware of an exemption which would exclude you from the flight experience requirement you cited.

- Martin

 

[G-force]

I'm curious. If your medical had the night restriction on it due to being color blind, what happens if you decide to switch to basic med. Is there no longer a legal night restriction?

Nothing in Basicmed would forbid night flying, however 61.53(b) is always in effect:

(b) Operations that do not require a medical certificate. For operations provided for in § 61.23(b) of this part, a person shall not act as pilot in command, or in any other capacity as a required pilot flight crewmember, while that person knows or has reason to know of any medical condition that would make the person unable to operate the aircraft in a safe manner.

Having failed the color vision test on a past medical, and had the night flying restriction on it, its safe to assume at some point you learned you had a medical condition that makes night flying unsafe. So it is up to you to determine if you can safely opperate an aircraft at night. More importantly, could you convince the FAA of it if you ever had an accident at night.