Getting flight following - final destination or next waypoint?

[mikegreen]

I'm heading to the Beloit area from Dayton tomorrow, most likely I73-MIE-JOT-44C

When I call up Dayton approach after departing I73, what is my destination? Do I say VFR to 44C, via MIE and JOT? Or just VFR to 44C?

Up until now, I've always just gone direct via the GPS... but I need to get around Chicago Bravo...

thanks,

Mike

 

[Fearless Tower]

You can do it both ways...not sure how Chicago controllers are, but if you just give your destination, they may clear you through the Bravo if conditions and workload permit.

When I was a student and early private pilot circumnavigating the Boston B (going from Rhode Island to Maine, I would often tell them I was going via BED, because I knew there was no way I was going to get cleared through the Bravo there.

 

[Steve]

I see nothing wrong with just stating the destination. When you're VFR ATC is mainly just going to observe your flight, not worry about the exact route you're flying unless you appear to be headed towards a traffic or airspace conflict, or wandering inexplicably away from the general direction of your destination. Those would most likely prompt a radio call, if workload permits.

 

[gprellwitz]

You can do it both ways...not sure how Chicago controllers are, but if you just give your destination, they may clear you through the Bravo if conditions and workload permit.

When I was a student and early private pilot circumnavigating the Boston B (going from Rhode Island to Maine, I would often tell them I was going via BED, because I knew there was no way I was going to get cleared through the Bravo there.

Hah! No way will he be cleared through the O'HARE Class Bravo unless it's after about 11PM.

Also be sure you have CURRENT charts. The O'Hare Class Bravo EXPANDED YESTERDAY!

 

[CJones]

I just give the destination when calling up for VFR flight following. If they need to know more about your route, they can (and sometimes do) ask. Usually it's not much more than "What is your on-course heading?" I'm assuming this is handy since they don't have a historical track for you on their screen to see which general direction you're going for any possible immediate traffic concerns.

 

[EdFred]

Flight Follo-what?

 

[Fearless Tower]

Hah! No way will he be cleared through the O'HARE Class Bravo unless it's after about 11PM.

Also be sure you have CURRENT charts. The O'Hare Class Bravo EXPANDED YESTERDAY!

Figured.....Boston was about the same....funny thing is that here in SoCal, they'll clear you through the San Diego Bravo all the time even with the heavy jet traffic at both SAN and NKX.

 

[Fearless Tower]

I see nothing wrong with just stating the destination. When you're VFR ATC is mainly just going to observe your flight, not worry about the exact route you're flying unless you appear to be headed towards a traffic or airspace conflict, or wandering inexplicably away from the general direction of your destination. Those would most likely prompt a radio call, if workload permits.

I have had ATC in both New England and in the Southwest query me a few times about my intended route when I was not flying direct....that's why it can help eliminate any confusion if you give them a route when asking for flight following. But, it is by no means required.

 

[Pi1otguy]

Figured.....Boston was about the same....funny thing is that here in SoCal, they'll clear you through the San Diego Bravo all the time even with the heavy jet traffic at both SAN and NKX.

I've found that if you talk and sound competent SoCal will entertain any reasonable request traffic permitting.

As for the OP, freq congestion permitting, I'd say give your destination and the next point (VOR or intersection) in that TraCon's area you'll be changing course.

 

[ScottM]

I'm heading to the Beloit area from Dayton tomorrow, most likely I73-MIE-JOT-44C

When I call up Dayton approach after departing I73, what is my destination? Do I say VFR to 44C, via MIE and JOT? Or just VFR to 44C?

Up until now, I've always just gone direct via the GPS... but I need to get around Chicago Bravo...

thanks,

Mike

You can do it both ways...not sure how Chicago controllers are, but if you just give your destination, they may clear you through the Bravo if conditions and workload permit.

When I was a student and early private pilot circumnavigating the Boston B (going from Rhode Island to Maine, I would often tell them I was going via BED, because I knew there was no way I was going to get cleared through the Bravo there.

Yep either way will work.

You will not get a bravo clearance and will go west around the new airspace. Also expect to have you FF dropped as you enter the Chi-TRACON airspace. Extremelly rare to get a VFR FF handoff. But then you can try with Chi-App. Center will likely suggest a frequency for you to try.

 

[ScottM]

Figured.....Boston was about the same....funny thing is that here in SoCal, they'll clear you through the San Diego Bravo all the time even with the heavy jet traffic at both SAN and NKX.

Yep I have had that same experience. But Chicago airspace is uber complex and uber busier than anywhere else. Just as the controllers here and they will tell you.

 

[DutchessFlier]

Yep I have had that same experience. But Chicago airspace is uber complex and uber busier than anywhere else. Just as the controllers here and they will tell you.

Cmon over to my world for a while Scott, lets see who has the biggest hassle...BTW, it is amazing how good the Metro NY controllers are about handling VFR flight following almost without delay. I rarely get told unable when requesting FF from NY. Same for Boston as well.

 

[ScottM]

Cmon over to my world for a while Scott, lets see who has the biggest hassle...BTW, it is amazing how good the Metro NY controllers are about handling VFR flight following almost without delay. I rarely get told unable when requesting FF from NY. Same for Boston as well.

Every bravo in the US is far less busy and far less complex than Chicago airspace. That is what I am told over and over again by the controllers here. That is why they cannot offer the same service as NY which is simple airspace according to Chi-Tracon.

Our one bright spot in Chicago are the Midway guys. They are a good group who do work with us. Chicago has its ups and downs, mostly downs. The latest airspace grab did nothing but feed their egos and put everyone else at a disadvantage. There big reason for grabbing the airpsace was that there was too much VFR traffic that was not talking to them. WHOSE FAULT WAS THAT!!!???!!!!

 

[gprellwitz]

Every bravo in the US is far less busy and far less complex than Chicago airspace. That is what I am told over and over again by the controllers here. That is why they cannot offer the same service as NY which is simple airspace according to Chi-Tracon.

Our one bright spot in Chicago are the Midway guys. They are a good group who do work with us. Chicago has its ups and downs, mostly downs. The latest airspace grab did nothing but feed their egos and put everyone else at a disadvantage. There big reason for grabbing the airpsace was that there was too much VFR traffic that was not talking to them. WHOSE FAULT WAS THAT!!!???!!!!

And to be precise, I believe that Scott is referring to Chicago APPROACH when he says Chicago, not Chicago Center.

 

[ScottM]

And to be precise, I believe that Scott is referring to Chicago APPROACH when he says Chicago, not Chicago Center.

Yes, Scott means Chicago approach. The Center guys are good guys. SOme of the approach ones are too. But as an institution Chicago Approach can be a challenge to work with unless you have a large logo painted on your tail and are departing or arriving KORD.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I'm heading to the Beloit area from Dayton tomorrow, most likely I73-MIE-JOT-44C

When I call up Dayton approach after departing I73, what is my destination? Do I say VFR to 44C, via MIE and JOT? Or just VFR to 44C?

Tell them JOT is your destination - You'll never keep flight following that far, it's in Chicago Approach's airspace.

Or, you can do what they do to us IFR - Go I73-KELSI-44C, you can ask Chicago Center for direct and they'll tell you when you can go direct 44C without hitting Chicago Approach airspace.

But, once you see how far out of the way KELSI is, you'll probably just want to use your original route and go VFR, skipping flight following for part of it. (EDIT: OK, for you it's only an extra 24nm. Not too bad.)

If you do take the MIE-JOT route, Chicago Center will drop you near Peotone, and you'll be able to pick up flight following again from Rockford Approach near De Kalb.

 

[timwinters]

If you do take the MIE-JOT route, Chicago Center will drop you near Peotone, and you'll be able to pick up flight following again from Rockford Approach near De Kalb.

When I was flying back and forth from MO to WI it was my experience that RFD appr were even bigger jerks than CHI appr. They dropped me on nearly ever trip if I was using FF instead of flying instruments.

Apparently a lot of training goes on at RFD. I would regularly listen to RFD appr being absolutely brutal to someone flying approaches. One day it was a citation shooting approaches. The approach controller had the pilot so upset that I wondered if he was still safe to fly. It was so bad that I called the supervisor and asked her to review the tapes as soon as I landed at ATW.

I've only heard about some of the controllers out east and haven't experienced them personally. RFD has the biggest jerks I've ever dealt with. At least it was that way for the two years ending 18 months ago when I was flying through their airspace once or twice a week.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

When I was flying back and forth from MO to WI it was my experience that RFD appr were even bigger jerks than CHI appr. They dropped me on nearly ever trip if I was using FF instead of flying instruments.

Did you ever talk to Chicago Approach? Probably not - You'd have been talking to Chicago Center.

Maybe Chicago Approach is the nicest bunch of people in the world - But I can't tell because they won't talk to me.

Apparently a lot of training goes on at RFD. I would regularly listen to RFD appr being absolutely brutal to someone flying approaches. One day it was a citation shooting approaches. The approach controller had the pilot so upset that I wondered if he was still safe to fly. It was so bad that I called the supervisor and asked her to review the tapes as soon as I landed at ATW.

They're not nearly as helpful and friendly as those at MSN, but I've never had them (or even heard them) refuse flight following. And part of the reason there's so much training going on in RFD's airspace is that all the instrument students in the Chicago area are getting booted out of Chicago airspace on a regular basis and have to go somewhere else - I think RFD is closest for most of them, though MKE and/or SBN can be depending on where they are.

I've only heard about some of the controllers out east and haven't experienced them personally.

It doesn't seem like the region really has much to do with how good the controllers are, it really varies by facility. We have excellent controllers at MSN, and I've had exceptionally good service from NorCal, New York, and Houston as well. Chicago is generally the biggest pain, but Milwaukee, Philly, and others have made it onto my not-so-great list.

I am talking about the TRACON (Approach) facilities above - Centers are generally all very good, with Chicago, New York, and Boston having given me "above and beyond" service at various points and only Seattle being a pain (refused a handoff from PDX departure and then refused directly when I called up) - But that's based on extremely limited experience with them (yes, one encounter).

I'm glad that seemingly the vast majority of aviation-related government people I've dealt with are extremely helpful and friendly (ATC, NACO, FSDO, etc) and really do not fit the government employee stereotype.

 

[timwinters]

Did you ever talk to Chicago Approach?

Actually, yes, quite often, when I took the "eastern route". And, yeah, they're weren't kittens but I found RFD to be much worse.

 

[murphey]

Hah! No way will he be cleared through the O'HARE Class Bravo unless it's after about 11PM.

Also be sure you have CURRENT charts. The O'Hare Class Bravo EXPANDED YESTERDAY!

I just took a look at the new sectional (don't have the terminal handy). M gawd!!! 5, count 'em FIVE! rings around the place. Is ORD really that busy or is it the combined traffic of all the other airports along with ORD?

 

[gismo]

I just took a look at the new sectional (don't have the terminal handy). M gawd!!! 5, count 'em FIVE! rings around the place. Is ORD really that busy or is it the combined traffic of all the other airports along with ORD?

ORD is pretty busy, and they don't like GA in "their" airspace at all. I doubt the IFR traffic to and from all the other fields adds up to more than a few percent of the Ohare traffic.

 

[sba55]

I just took a look at the new sectional (don't have the terminal handy). M gawd!!! 5, count 'em FIVE! rings around the place. Is ORD really that busy or is it the combined traffic of all the other airports along with ORD?

No, they're not that busy at all. Yes, they're a large airport, but there are much busier airports and especially much busier terminal areas.

ORD likes to think they're "the busiest airport in the world". They even have a statue to that effect in the airport. I guess there's no point telling these delusional folks that ORD hasn't been the busiest airport in a while, and I don't even know when it was the busiest terminal area - a long time ago.

 

[dmccormack]

ORD likes to think they're "the busiest airport in the world". They even have a statue to that effect in the airport. I guess there's no point telling these delusional folks that ORD hasn't been the busiest airport in a while, and I don't even know when it was the busiest terminal area - a long time ago.

It's tied to Chicago's enduring need to be noticed for something other than Kraft Macaroni and Cheese

"Look at me!' I'm big too!"

B)