Getting a 1st Class Medical after ADHD medicine trial in 2015

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Medical Stress

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In 2015 I was having some trouble focusing at work, and after talking with my doctor, he suggested I try some Adderall. Almost immediately I changed jobs and realized it wasn't an ADD issue, it was a job issue. I stopped taking the medication and haven't thought about it since. I was never diagnosed, and I took the prescription for less than a month in total.

I am now trying to get a 1st class medical to pursue a career in aviation. My doctor, the one who originally had me trial the meds, has deleted any reference of it from my medical history, and I'm currently waiting on my prescription history from the pharmacy.

So while I wait, I'm hoping to get some opinions of what my medical application will look like, and what I should do.

I feel like on the MedXPress I can honestly say no to having been diagnosed with, had, or presently have ADHD, as the original doctor agrees I don't have it, and never did. In his words, "This happens all the time. We think someone might have broken their foot, so I send them for an x-ray, and it comes back negative." But, we're not the FAA, and they might disagree with my doctor.

Almost assuredly my prescription history will show that single prescription for Adderall, but even if it doesn't, I can't be guaranteed that info isn't out there somewhere. My doctor has changed networks since then, I could have gotten it from another random pharmacy I've forgotten about, it could be tied to old insurance I don't remember, ect...

So my question is, if I were to fill out no on the MedXPress, could that bite me in the ass in 10 years? My fear is yes, so I plan on consulting with an AME, and telling him everything I've outlined here, before I submit anything. But doing that, could just open myself up to a year+ and thousands of dollars over something I don't need to bring up.
 
The problem with doing what you are thinking about doing is that at anytime anyone that knows about the situation can drop a dime to the FAA and no more flying for you.

IMO FAA needs to address the AHDH issue.

should be 5 years off meds...have at it hoss
 
midcap said:
The problem with doing what you are thinking about doing is that at anytime anyone that knows about the situation can drop a dime to the FAA and no more flying for you.

IMO FAA needs to address the AHDH issue.

should be 5 years off meds...have at it hoss
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I'm just trying to avoid two things.

If I get into an incident in 10 years, and the FAA finds some trace of the ADHD meds somewhere buried in my history, I don't want them claiming I lied and killing my career. I'm of course not lying, but bureaucracy is well known for not putting any thought into things.

I also don't want to open a can of worms with an AME, and be forced to do expensive and time consuming psych testing, over literally nothing.

*sigh* The obvious answer is to just consult with an AME and hope he tells me to put no down, and if not, deal with the testing. I think I just needed to write it out to come to terms with it lol.
 
Nope. Get the Neuropsych evaluation, and get it behind you.You had the diagnosis in order to get the pills. “Sigh”…..Omitting and lying is…a class 4 felony.

Google “27 pilots indicted” or “4 Delta Pilots Indicted” and see how that’s working for them…..
 
Medical Stress said:
In 2015 I was having some trouble focusing at work, and after talking with my doctor, he suggested I try some Adderall. Almost immediately I changed jobs and realized it wasn't an ADD issue, it was a job issue. I stopped taking the medication and haven't thought about it since. I was never diagnosed, and I took the prescription for less than a month in total.

I am now trying to get a 1st class medical to pursue a career in aviation. My doctor, the one who originally had me trial the meds, has deleted any reference of it from my medical history, and I'm currently waiting on my prescription history from the pharmacy.

So while I wait, I'm hoping to get some opinions of what my medical application will look like, and what I should do.

I feel like on the MedXPress I can honestly say no to having been diagnosed with, had, or presently have ADHD, as the original doctor agrees I don't have it, and never did. In his words, "This happens all the time. We think someone might have broken their foot, so I send them for an x-ray, and it comes back negative." But, we're not the FAA, and they might disagree with my doctor.

Almost assuredly my prescription history will show that single prescription for Adderall, but even if it doesn't, I can't be guaranteed that info isn't out there somewhere. My doctor has changed networks since then, I could have gotten it from another random pharmacy I've forgotten about, it could be tied to old insurance I don't remember, ect...

So my question is, if I were to fill out no on the MedXPress, could that bite me in the *** in 10 years? My fear is yes, so I plan on consulting with an AME, and telling him everything I've outlined here, before I submit anything. But doing that, could just open myself up to a year+ and thousands of dollars over something I don't need to bring up.
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The form asks for conditions you've had or been diagnosed with and medications that you're currently taking. I've yet to see any good justification for answering questions that weren't asked.
 
You don’t get Adderall without a diagnosis. Needs to go back to the doctor and get the report that resulted in the prescription. But the only diagnoses that it’s used to treat are adhd and narcolepsy, so the OP should be ready to accept the worst.
 
bflynn said:
You don’t get Adderall without a diagnosis. Needs to go back to the doctor and get the report that resulted in the prescription. But the only diagnoses that it’s used to treat are adhd and narcolepsy, so the OP should be ready to accept the worst.
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I know a certain pharmacy that compounds adderrall with Dimenhydrinate to treat sea sickness, and I mean like when it's 3-5s out there.

I have never taken it, but I know it exist
 
bflynn said:
You don’t get Adderall without a diagnosis. Needs to go back to the doctor and get the report that resulted in the prescription. But the only diagnoses that it’s used to treat are adhd and narcolepsy, so the OP should be ready to accept the worst.
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I agree that it's best to prepare for the worst, but what prevents a doctor from prescribing Adderall without a diagnosis? Do pharmacists refuse to fill the prescription if there is no diagnosis? Or is there some other enforcement mechanism that prevents it?

From time to time we see people reporting here that their doctors had them try it for symptoms that allegedly might or might not be sufficient evidence for one of the approved diagnoses, which leads me to wonder whether it's really impossible that this could be going on?
 
Medical Stress said:
and after talking with my doctor, he suggested I try some Adderall. Almost immediately I changed jobs and realized it wasn't an ADD issue, it was a job issue.
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Documented in the chart or not, deleted after being documented or not, it sure seems to me you had a diagnosis of ADHD, regardless of how it’s now phrased or parsed. Prescribing a Schedule II drug like Adderal without properly documenting a legitimate reason is not a risk I’d personally take with my medical license. Then again, deleting records of such isn’t a risk I’d take either, so, if true, I’m not sure of this provider’s priorities.
 
It seems to me that if something is illegal, that doesn't prove that it didn't happen. I thought we were supposed to write down what actually happened, not what should have happened.
 
I never took any tests for ADHD, and my doctor said I wasn't diagnosed with it. He simply removed it from his notes about past visits.

Obviously it's possible I'm misremembering what drug he gave me (I'm still waiting on my prescription history), or I'm misunderstanding what he's saying. But as far as I understand, there has never been a diagnosis of ADHD, and I had a short trial of the meds, which we determined wasn't actually needed, so we didn't continue with trying for a diagnosis.

I would also like to clarify that I have no intention of lying to the FAA. That's not on the table at all and I've never considered it. If I find out I was in fact diagnosed with ADHD, then that's obviously something I have to report. But just because I'm not lying when I fill out "no" on the medxpress, doesn't mean the FAA won't treat me like I did. Which is why I've posted here looking for clarity.

Clearly though, I need to clarify more with my doctor, get my prescription records, and have a better understanding of the situation. And then, it seems like the risk of the FAA causing problems for me in the future is too great even filling out a truthful no.

Thank you for everyone's input.
 
You can't escape. Unless you paid Cash $$S (and I mean like $700), there's an insurance Co record that the FAA can access.
If you hide the ball., in this Hard drive culture, SOMEBODY HAS IT. Gret way to start- with a class 4 felony.

Have a great life. :(.
 
bbchien said:
You can't escape. Unless you paid Cash $$S (and I mean like $700), there's an insurance Co record that the FAA can access.
If you hide the ball., in this Hard drive culture, SOMEBODY HAS IT. Gret way to start- with a class 4 felony.

Have a great life. :(.
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I appreciate your answers. Frustrating that I'll have to go through so much hassle over one conversation and a single issue back in my past, was hoping there would be an easier path. But it is what it is, so I'll deal with it so I can safely accomplish my dream.

Thanks again
 
I'm sorry, but the hyperbole of being tried for a "Class 4 Felony" is just that. The standard is "to the best of my knowledge". The layperson cannot be expected to know or understand the nuances of medical billing codes. A tiny fraction of the pilot population frequents these types of forums, and would have no reason to know this information. If a doctor says you do not have a disease, why can an airman not rely on that doctor's (lack of) diagnosis? I'm not a lawyer, but my understanding is that in order to be convicted of lying on a federal form, there has to be demonstrable intent to falsify information. I would argue that saying you have a condition that a doctor told you don't have would constitute falsification.
 
Jeff Oslick said:
I'm sorry, but the hyperbole of being tried for a "Class 4 Felony" is just that. The standard is "to the best of my knowledge". The layperson cannot be expected to know or understand the nuances of medical billing codes. A tiny fraction of the pilot population frequents these types of forums, and would have no reason to know this information. If a doctor says you do not have a disease, why can an airman not rely on that doctor's (lack of) diagnosis? I'm not a lawyer, but my understanding is that in order to be convicted of lying on a federal form, there has to be demonstrable intent to falsify information. I would argue that saying you have a condition that a doctor told you don't have would constitute falsification.
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This was my logic while bringing this up. The doctor who originally tested the ADHD meds with me nearly immediately said, "nah, this isn't it" and we stopped. So IMO, I'm not lying when I say I never had it, don't have it, and haven't ever been diagnosed with it. But Dr Chien is well known as being an expert on these subjects, so if he says get the neuro test and report it, otherwise it could bite me in the ass big time, I'm going to trust him.
 
Jeff Oslick said:
I'm sorry, but the hyperbole of being tried for a "Class 4 Felony" is just that. The standard is "to the best of my knowledge". The layperson cannot be expected to know or understand the nuances of medical billing codes. A tiny fraction of the pilot population frequents these types of forums, and would have no reason to know this information. If a doctor says you do not have a disease, why can an airman not rely on that doctor's (lack of) diagnosis? I'm not a lawyer, but my understanding is that in order to be convicted of lying on a federal form, there has to be demonstrable intent to falsify information. I would argue that saying you have a condition that a doctor told you don't have would constitute falsification.
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Where does the firm say “to the best of my knowledge”? Hint: it doesn’t. And how do you show “demonstrable intent”?

How can anyone reasonably argue that they were given medication for a condition that they were not diagnosed with? That just makes absolutely no sense.

He was diagnosed, he got the meds. The answer is “yes”.
 
mryan75 said:
Where does the firm say “to the best of my knowledge”? Hint: it doesn’t. And how do you show “demonstrable intent”?

How can anyone reasonably argue that they were given medication for a condition that they were not diagnosed with? That just makes absolutely no sense.

He was diagnosed, he got the meds. The answer is “yes”.
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Great Question!

ZZZZZ.PNG
 
mryan75 said:
But it isn’t to the best of the OP’s knowledge. I mean honestly, read the post again and tell me that isn’t the fishiest story you’ve ever read.
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this is the anonymous medical topics forum, 99% of the threads here are fishy :D
 
mryan75 said:
He was diagnosed, he got the meds. The answer is “yes”.
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"Doc, I'm not feeling well, I think I've got a cold, can you give me something for it?"

"Sure, take this antibiotic."

...for a virus.

So, I'll claim doctors have prescribed medicines for a condition they *know* a patient didn't have many millions of times.
 
Medical Stress said:
This was my logic while bringing this up. The doctor who originally tested the ADHD meds with me nearly immediately said, "nah, this isn't it" and we stopped. So IMO, I'm not lying when I say I never had it, don't have it, and haven't ever been diagnosed with it. But Dr Chien is well known as being an expert on these subjects, so if he says get the neuro test and report it, otherwise it could bite me in the *** big time, I'm going to trust him.
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Dr. Chien knows how the FAA deals with medical issues, that's for sure.
 
mryan75 said:
Where does the firm say “to the best of my knowledge”? Hint: it doesn’t. And how do you show “demonstrable intent”?

How can anyone reasonably argue that they were given medication for a condition that they were not diagnosed with? That just makes absolutely no sense.

He was diagnosed, he got the meds. The answer is “yes”.
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From the description, it sounds like the doctor was engaging in trial-and-error as a means of arriving at a diagnosis. Whether that's right or wrong, I have no clue. Whether that's what actually happened is a different question.
 
Palmpilot said:
From the description, it sounds like the doctor was engaging in trial-and-error as a means of arriving at a diagnosis. Whether that's right or wrong, I have no clue. Whether that's what actually happened is a different question.
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It's also seems likely that I've misunderstood my situation and what my doctor explained. Regardless, any chance of this ADHD, diagnosed or not, hurting my career down the line isn't a risk I'm willing to take. So I'll just jump through any hoops the FAA wants.
 
Medical Stress said:
It's also seems likely that I've misunderstood my situation and what my doctor explained. Regardless, any chance of this ADHD, diagnosed or not, hurting my career down the line isn't a risk I'm willing to take. So I'll just jump through any hoops the FAA wants.
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The ADHD reversal just costs money, you go see a HIMS Pysch, and just take the battery of test.

Dr Bruce should be able to give you a referral
 
Jeff Oslick said:
I'm sorry, but the hyperbole of being tried for a "Class 4 Felony" is just that. The standard is "to the best of my knowledge". The layperson cannot be expected to know or understand the nuances of medical billing codes. A tiny fraction of the pilot population frequents these types of forums, and would have no reason to know this information. If a doctor says you do not have a disease, why can an airman not rely on that doctor's (lack of) diagnosis? I'm not a lawyer, but my understanding is that in order to be convicted of lying on a federal form, there has to be demonstrable intent to falsify information. I would argue that saying you have a condition that a doctor told you don't have would constitute falsification.
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jeff I suggest you google 27 pilots indicted, or 4 delta pilots indicted…..

…and said CRED Of said Dr, who reverses diagnosis Now becomes suspect in the eyes of the Agency….
 
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bbchien said:
jeff I suggest you google 27 pilots indicted, or 4 delta pilots indicted…..
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Bruce, I think you know I've been at this long enough to understand that I know there is a substantial difference from those cases and this situation.

I don't know if it's still a thing, but docs used to pass out try-this "samples" of pharmaceuticals to patients that they would get from the pharma companies. Where would the the records of those scripts be found if the doctor's office dumped their records?
 
I went to two forums at Oshkosh specifically dealing with this issue.

The first forum was the more impactful one in terms of the FAA form. It was being led by two aviation lawyers... not the FAA, not EAA, not AOPA, but two lawyers who were actually doing their level best to make sure that their services would not be needed by anyone in that forum.

They were crystal clear about two things:

The language on that form, including the instruction page, makes it very clear that if you so much as go to a doctor for a consult about something, you received some form of medical treatment for it. Meaning, if you approached your doctor about the possibility of ADD/ADHD, you have to check that box in the affirmative.

Maybe your doctor deletes his notes, maybe he doesn't. Maybe it's in some insurance company files. Who knows. The last thing you want is the FAA somehow finding out about it. Because if they do, and they bust you, you won't be flying for a long, expensive time.

Which brings up the second thing: the FAA is not messing around on this stuff. The lawyers made it clear that the FAA views lying on the medical form as a Really Big Deal... often a bigger deal than any medical diagnosis. As has been mentioned in this thread a few times, the FAA's access to electronic medical records is expanding. If you get caught lying about something you don't think is really that big of a deal, the FAA just might disagree with you on the severity, and you'll pay the price.

If you intend on making aviation a career, don't listen to anyone that tells you to falsify a federal document. Those people are fools, and it's not their livelihood at risk.

It sucks, the FAA needs to pull their head out of their you-know-what in regard to ADD/ADHD, but that is the reality of the situation right now.
 
bbchien said:
jeff I suggest you google 27 pilots indicted, or 4 delta pilots indicted…..

…and said CRED Of said Dr, who reverses diagnosis Now becomes suspect in the eyes of the Agency….
Click to expand...

the best part about the govt indicting the 27 pilots is that the pilots apparently have been flying long enough and safe enough to not have an incident. That's a little ironic

I saw 4 of the 27 were sentenced, any word on the other 23?
 
Steve Costello said:
I went to two forums at Oshkosh specifically dealing with this issue.

The first forum was the more impactful one in terms of the FAA form. It was being led by two aviation lawyers... not the FAA, not EAA, not AOPA, but two lawyers who were actually doing their level best to make sure that their services would not be needed by anyone in that forum.

They were crystal clear about two things:

The language on that form, including the instruction page, makes it very clear that if you so much as go to a doctor for a consult about something, you received some form of medical treatment for it. Meaning, if you approached your doctor about the possibility of ADD/ADHD, you have to check that box in the affirmative.

Maybe your doctor deletes his notes, maybe he doesn't. Maybe it's in some insurance company files. Who knows. The last thing you want is the FAA somehow finding out about it. Because if they do, and they bust you, you won't be flying for a long, expensive time.

Which brings up the second thing: the FAA is not messing around on this stuff. The lawyers made it clear that the FAA views lying on the medical form as a Really Big Deal... often a bigger deal than any medical diagnosis. As has been mentioned in this thread a few times, the FAA's access to electronic medical records is expanding. If you get caught lying about something you don't think is really that big of a deal, the FAA just might disagree with you on the severity, and you'll pay the price.

If you intend on making aviation a career, don't listen to anyone that tells you to falsify a federal document. Those people are fools, and it's not their livelihood at risk.

It sucks, the FAA needs to pull their head out of their you-know-what in regard to ADD/ADHD, but that is the reality of the situation right now.
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lol...every single person born after 1980 needs to check the box then :eek:
 
Steve Costello said:
I went to two forums at Oshkosh specifically dealing with this issue.

The first forum was the more impactful one in terms of the FAA form. It was being led by two aviation lawyers... not the FAA, not EAA, not AOPA, but two lawyers who were actually doing their level best to make sure that their services would not be needed by anyone in that forum.

They were crystal clear about two things:

The language on that form, including the instruction page, makes it very clear that if you so much as go to a doctor for a consult about something, you received some form of medical treatment for it. Meaning, if you approached your doctor about the possibility of ADD/ADHD, you have to check that box in the affirmative.
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It's true that you can ask three lawyers the same question and get five opinions, but this is so clearly wrong, that I am skeptical you understood them correctly. My doctor gives me an EKG every year. By that logic, I would have to check "yes" for 18.g. even though there's never been anything wrong with my heart. Are you sure they weren't referring to item 19?
 
Jeff Oslick said:
I don't know if it's still a thing, but docs used to pass out try-this "samples" of pharmaceuticals to patients that they would get from the pharma companies. Where would the the records of those scripts be found if the doctor's office dumped their records?
Click to expand...
Indeed we did pass out samples. And I ALWAYS wrote a note with an assessment, including a diagnosis, and a plan, including if sample meds were given, to include the instructions I gave the patient, how many I gave them and for what duration - even for samples. There was NEVER any “hey - I’ve got this on the shelf - what could it hurt?” The samples simply replaced something I would have written a script for.

Sample meds are far less common these days but still around - typically in clinics that treat a lot of uninsured patients. They are required to be dispensed and overseen basically to the same standards as a pharmacy, including in outpatient settings, which is one reason many clinics have gotten away from using them (I was a hospital surveyor and ensured just that).
 
Llewtrah381 said:
Indeed we did pass out samples. And I ALWAYS wrote a note with an assessment, including a diagnosis, and a plan, including if sample meds were given, to include the instructions I gave the patient, how many I gave them and for what duration - even for samples. There was NEVER any “hey - I’ve got this on the shelf - what could it hurt?” The samples simply replaced something I would have written a script for.

Sample meds are far less common these days but still around - typically in clinics that treat a lot of uninsured patients. They are required to be dispensed and overseen basically to the same standards as a pharmacy, including in outpatient settings, which is one reason many clinics have gotten away from using them (I was a hospital surveyor and ensured just that).
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My old neurologist used to have samples of everything because he was the kind of guy who'd never turn away the stuff reps..... He'd open up the sample closet and offer me all kinds of stuff. I guess those days are over.
 
midcap said:
the best part about the govt indicting the 27 pilots is that the pilots apparently have been flying long enough and safe enough to not have an incident. That's a little ironic

I saw 4 of the 27 were sentenced, any word on the other 23?
Click to expand...
Still stuck in agony in the courts......
 
Jeff Oslick said:
"Doc, I'm not feeling well, I think I've got a cold, can you give me something for it?"

"Sure, take this antibiotic."

...for a virus.

So, I'll claim doctors have prescribed medicines for a condition they *know* a patient didn't have many millions of times.
Click to expand...
And added a diagnosis to the chart appropriate to medication prescribed, exactly as in this case. It’s amazing how many people have come here over the years having taken psych meds and we’re never diagnosed! It’s like 100%. Just like the guys out of the military on full disability for PTSD who all the sudden feel so much better once they realize they can’t get an FAA medical. It’s uncanny. (They are all full of IT).
 
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