Getting 100LL at Airventure Impossible. Literally

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mitchellfstafford

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Mitchell
My father and I were up at EAA Airventure Sunday through Friday morning this past week. It was my first time at Oshkosh and let me say the forums, planes and activities that are available are INCREDIBLE! A once in a lifetime experience. But lets get to the ridiculous fueling situation that took place Thursday afternoon.

Due to work we had to depart first thing Friday morning (6AM) to head back to Kansas City. Thursday afternoon around 3PM we headed back to our campsite to get ready for dinner and fill up our 172 to have full tanks for our departure to Kansas City the next day.

BTW - We were parked on a concrete patch on the Northeast end of the North 40. It's the concrete inlet right where you can walk through a gate in the fence over by Friar Tucks and Super 8. So driving around in the wet fields was not an issue.

Back to the story. I called Basler flight service to get fuel and they informed me that the fuel trucks were positioned in 3 different places on the North 40 and you had to go to them to get fuel. EAA had told them they could not leave their designated spots, and could absolutely not drive to the airplanes to fill them up with 100LL. What makes this process IMPOSSIBLE is that the airshow is going on until about 5:30 PM, which means the airport is closed, meaning you cannot even start up your engines to taxi. The only option to get fuel would be to PUSH your airplane about a 1/4 of a mile through the wet turf. I think not. Also, if you noticed we were departing at 6 AM the next day... What time do you think fuel service starts in the morning??? 7AM - great planning guys.

Luckily my dad and I are members of SAFE, and from this group new the airport manager. We placed a call to him and his response was: "WHAT?! We had a meeting with them this morning and they were told that they could drive wherever they wanted as long as the ground wasn't too wet." He said he would find out what was going on and call us back. 5 minutes later he called us back and said the fuel truck was on its way.

So after about an hour of being told we could not get fuel and making a call to the airport manager (thank god we knew him), after an act from god we were granted our fuel.

God love Airventure, but you would think this was the first year they have ever put this convention on. Again, the planes, forums, activities and people you meet at this event are the reason it is so successful and people come back year after year. I can't wait to go back for next year. But I will be wondering what hoops I will have to jump through.
 
mitchellfstafford said:
God love Airventure, but you would think this was the first year they have ever put this convention on. ... But I will be wondering what hoops I will have to jump through.
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Two comments.

One. This was an incredibly difficult year for them as far as weather goes. As I understand it, the North 40 was very soggy most of the early part of the week. It is somewhat understandable that they would not want to drive the trucks out on the grass up there. Please do not judge them harshly. They were doing the the best they knew how under very trying conditions. It is not normally that bad.

Two. Consider it a learning experience. If you know you were going to need fuel, best to get it early. You never know what kind of stuff is going to interfere with fueling at any given time.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Two comments.

One. This was an incredibly difficult year for them as far as weather goes. As I understand it, the North 40 was very soggy most of the early part of the week. It is somewhat understandable that they would not want to drive the trucks out on the grass up there. Please do not judge them harshly. They were doing the the best they knew how under very trying conditions. It is not normally that bad.

Two. Consider it a learning experience. If you know you were going to need fuel, best to get it early. You never know what kind of stuff is going to interfere with fueling at any given time.
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This was Thursday. Yes it had rained on Tuesday, but was sunny all week and the ground had dried considerably since we had arrived on Sunday. Second, in the morning meeting held with EAA, Airport Management and the fuel services (Basler & Orion) they were told they could drive to where the planes were to fill them up. If they deemed the ground was too soft then they would pull up to the road closest to where the plane was and they could pull up to the fuel truck.

I don't think anyone would mind getting a few guys and pushing their plane 50 yards or so to where the truck would pull up. But who the hell wants to push their plane 1/4 of a mile or further through the grass because you cannot start up while the airport is closed. Also, if you read through my post we were parked on concrete.

The weather leading up to Airventure was brutal and they got a lot of rain. But, there is no reason to not use minimal commen sense as well. It was a learning experience. You learn to accept the fact that idiotic things happen and unless you know the right person there is nothing you can do about it.

Don't get me wrong. I'll be back next year, the year after, and many to come. But some things just don't make any sense.
 
mitchellfstafford said:
It was my first time at Oshkosh
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Let me assure you the logistics around aircraft handling at this year's Airventure bore no resemblance whatsoever to a normal year.

Normally the fuel trucks are patrolling the area and you can wave one down, or make a call, or stop at the booth and make arrangements.
Because of the record setting rain, they had prohibited vehicles in the grass for a few days while the ground was drying. If vehicles drove on it, it became a mud bog and no amount of sun was going to fix it.
 
PilotAlan said:
Let me assure you the logistics around aircraft handling at this year's Airventure bore no resemblance whatsoever to a normal year.

Normally the fuel trucks are patrolling the area and you can wave one down, or make a call, or stop at the booth and make arrangements.
Because of the record setting rain, they had prohibited vehicles in the grass for a few days while the ground was drying. If vehicles drove on it, it became a mud bog and no amount of sun was going to fix it.
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I understand normally trucks are able to drive around to fill up. And other than Thursday they were able to drive to the location of the plane, stay on the paved road and the plane pull up for service.

Again, we were parked on a CONCRETE SURFACE. The grass being soggy does not apply. I'm not sure why everyone is bringing up the grass being soggy. Earlier during the week including Wednesday, the day after the storm passed through and dumped even more rain on the grounds, the trucks were driving to the location of the plane and they would push or taxi up to them. In this case they were staying in 3 permanent locations and you were to PUSH your plane to them. During the airshow the airport is closed and you cannot start your engine.
 
mitchellfstafford said:
I can't wait to go back for next year. But I will be wondering what hoops I will have to jump through.
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I will echo Jim (and others) -- there are always hoops to jump through at OSH, and this year was exceptional. In nearly three decades of attendance, I've never seen anything like it. IMHO, EAA did an outstanding job of reacting to a terrible situation.

In the end, there is no other place in the world like Airventure, and I have moved heaven and earth to attend every year. I will continue to do so until I am unable.

That said, the fuel system this year WAS chaos. Luckily, we had fueled in Stevens Point before finally being allowed into OSH, so we really didn't need to top 'er off before departing. I felt bad not gassing up in OSH -- this is the first time I've ever declined gas there, and I hated to take that desperately needed income from Basler or Orion -- but I wasn't about to taxi (or drag the plane) over to their temporary gas site before departure.

In the end this omission actually did cost us an extra night on the road, since we stopped at Quincy, IL for fuel instead of tanking up in OSH. If the tailwind that we were enjoying had continued, we might have made it home in one hop, but (of course) South of that big stationary front my tailwind became a headwind. This meant stopping for the night in College Station, TX, rather than making it all the way home...but it's all good. We had a great time in College Station! :thumbsup:
 
Jay Honeck said:
I will echo Jim (and others) -- there are always hoops to jump through at OSH, and this year was exceptional. In nearly three decades of attendance, I've never seen anything like it. IMHO, EAA did an outstanding job of reacting to a terrible situation.

In the end, there is no other place in the world like Airventure, and I have moved heaven and earth to attend every year. I will continue to do so until I am unable.

That said, the fuel system this year WAS chaos. Luckily, we had fueled in Stevens Point before finally being allowed into OSH, so we really didn't need to top 'er off before departing. I felt bad not gassing up in OSH -- this is the first time I've ever declined gas there, and I hated to take that desperately needed income from Basler or Orion -- but I wasn't about to taxi (or drag the plane) over to their temporary gas site before departure.

In the end this omission actually did cost us an extra night on the road, since we stopped at Quincy, IL for fuel instead of tanking up in OSH. If the tailwind that we were enjoying had continued, we might have made it home in one hop, but (of course) South of that big stationary front my tailwind became a headwind. This meant stopping for the night in College Station, TX, rather than making it all the way home...but it's all good. We had a great time in College Station! :thumbsup:
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I agree with you whole heartedly. I felt bad for Basler and Orion because they were doing what EAA told them to do. They probably sold about 1/20th of what they would normally do because fuel wasn't available. We needed to top off because with full fuel and a headwind Kansas City was at the end of our reach. Having to stop enroute (IFR conditions the whole way home), re-file and climb back up to altitude would've added about an hour and a half to our trip.

Had the time of my life at Airventure though. The people I met, planes I saw and activities I went to will always leave a great memory of Airventure 2010, my first time to Oshkosh.
 
mitchellfstafford said:
I agree with you whole heartedly. I felt bad for Basler and Orion because they were doing what EAA told them to do. They probably sold about 1/20th of what they would normally do because fuel wasn't available. We needed to top off because with full fuel and a headwind Kansas City was at the end of our reach. Having to stop enroute (IFR conditions the whole way home), re-file and climb back up to altitude would've added about an hour and a half to our trip.

Had the time of my life at Airventure though. The people I met, planes I saw and activities I went to will always leave a great memory of Airventure 2010, my first time to Oshkosh.
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Climbing at 50fpm and 40kts must be awful. I've done an IFR turnaround in 20 minutes. Fuel, pee, start engine, get clearance. 90 minutes? Not buying it. If you know you going to have to stop. File two flight plans, then there's no refiling.
 
mitchellfstafford said:
<snip>
Due to work we had to depart first thing Friday morning (6AM) to head back to Kansas City. Thursday afternoon around 3PM we headed back to our campsite to get ready for dinner and fill up our 172 to have full tanks for our departure to Kansas City the next day.
<snip>
What makes this process IMPOSSIBLE is that the airshow is going on until about 5:30 PM, which means the airport is closed, meaning you cannot even start up your engines to taxi. The only option to get fuel would be to PUSH your airplane about a 1/4 of a mile through the wet turf. I think not. Also, if you noticed we were departing at 6 AM the next day... What time do you think fuel service starts in the morning??? 7AM - great planning guys.
<snip>
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Why dincha just taxi over to the fuel truck at 6pm after the airshow and fuel up?

Taxi back, finish dinner, relax, have a nice evening and depart full of fuel in the morning.

Tim
 
Having been informed of field conditions prior to arrival I landed with 2 hrs of fuel remaining in case the fuel trucks couldn't approach the aircraft. Initially I was stacked 3 deep on pavement but two days later I moved to grass. Saturday afternoon was dry enough to get a (small) fuel truck in front of the plane, but I still had the plane towed forward a few feet prior to departure on Sunday to get out of the rut from sitting in one spot for 7 days. We left early enough to ensure our 5 hr flight home ended in time for lunch.

I watched the fuel truck drivers doing their best to avoid creating ruts and I know they were frustrated the entire week by the field conditions.
 
Troska said:
Why dincha just taxi over to the fuel truck at 6pm after the airshow and fuel up?

Taxi back, finish dinner, relax, have a nice evening and depart full of fuel in the morning.

Tim
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We were going to a dinner at 5:30 for SAFE, an organization my father and I both belong to. Fuel service stops at 7pm. That was why we came back to our plane at 3:30 to try and get everything done before we left for dinner.
 
Steve said:
Having been informed of field conditions prior to arrival I landed with 2 hrs of fuel remaining in case the fuel trucks couldn't approach the aircraft. Initially I was stacked 3 deep on pavement but two days later I moved to grass. Saturday afternoon was dry enough to get a (small) fuel truck in front of the plane, but I still had the plane towed forward a few feet prior to departure on Sunday to get out of the rut from sitting in one spot for 7 days. We left early enough to ensure our 5 hr flight home ended in time for lunch.

I watched the fuel truck drivers doing their best to avoid creating ruts and I know they were frustrated the entire week by the field conditions.
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We had enough fuel to make plenty of airports enroute home. We wanted to fill up because then we could save about an hour and some money by going nonstop. Extra time and fuel to descend, land, taxi, fill up, takeoff, climb back up to altitude.

The fuel truck drivers were fine and felt bad about it. They said "We want to drive around and fill people up. We were told not to leave by EAA."
 
EdFred said:
Climbing at 50fpm and 40kts must be awful. I've done an IFR turnaround in 20 minutes. Fuel, pee, start engine, get clearance. 90 minutes? Not buying it. If you know you going to have to stop. File two flight plans, then there's no refiling.
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The problem wasn't re-filing, that would've been easy, you're right. But it does save a lot of time and a little money to fly nonstop. Oshkosh to KC direct was 4 hours on the nose, even with the headwind. Cheapest fuel enroute was $4.16 per gallon, fuel at home base was $3.90. Stopping somewhere to get fuel would've added an extra half an hour at least. You can't tell me that in 20 minutes you could descend from 7000 feet, taxi in, fill up, take a leak, taxi back, takeoff, climb back up to 7000 feet (500 fpm at about 75 knots, gross weight 172).

I'm not saying we couldn't have done a stop on the way home. I'm simply stating that common sense shows that with full tanks we save ourselves time and money. Flying is expensive enough. Why not save a few bucks?
 
So why was it literally impossible? Those are some strong words...
 
mitchellfstafford said:
Have you ever tried pushing/pulling your plane through the grass for half a mile by yourself?
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So it was difficult to get at the precise time that you wanted the fuel. It wasn't literally impossible to get..Nor would it have been difficult later.

I guess we have different definitions of literally impossible. I'm not sure that literally impossible even exists.
 
In your OP you said you were parked on the hardstand. Why would you have to push it through the grass? You knew that the field was in rough shape and you could not park you plane in the grass. You knew that you wanted to leave the next morning at 6:00AM. You knew you had a dinner plan that would keep you from taxing your plane to the fuel after the show ended. You whined about their planning when I say look in the mirror. I can understand that your not happy about the issue but to try to place this all on someone elsess shoulders smacks of a large case of denial on your part.
 
jesse said:
So it was difficult to get at the precise time that you wanted the fuel. It wasn't literally impossible to get..Nor would it have been difficult later.

I guess we have different definitions of literally impossible. I'm not sure that literally impossible even exists.
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For that specific day it was. All week long they had been pulling up to planes and filling up. We were counting on that. Later would've been about 8pm. Fuel service stopped at 7. We went back to our plane with 2 1/2 hours to get fuel just to be safe in case they were backed up with people wanting fuel. There were plenty of people wanting fuel. We saw 6 guys pushing a piper cherokee through the grass for about 1/2 a mile to get fuel. So I guess if I would've found 5 other guys it wouldn't have been literally impossible. But for the situation I was in, it was.
 
jtheune said:
In your OP you said you were parked on the hardstand. Why would you have to push it through the grass? You knew that the field was in rough shape and you could not park you plane in the grass. You knew that you wanted to leave the next morning at 6:00AM. You knew you had a dinner plan that would keep you from taxing your plane to the fuel after the show ended. You whined about their planning when I say look in the mirror. I can understand that your not happy about the issue but to try to place this all on someone elsess shoulders smacks of a large case of denial on your part.
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Because the roads are used by the hundreds of buses they have running people from their planes to the campgrounds, trucks, cars, etc. I think they would frown on you having to close down service to thousands of people to try and push your plane to get fuel. I'm assuming that's why they have mobil fuel trucks.
 
mitchellfstafford said:
For that specific day it was. All week long they had been pulling up to planes and filling up. We were counting on that. Later would've been about 8pm. Fuel service stopped at 7. We went back to our plane with 2 1/2 hours to get fuel just to be safe in case they were backed up with people wanting fuel. There were plenty of people wanting fuel. We saw 6 guys pushing a piper cherokee through the grass for about 1/2 a mile to get fuel. So I guess if I would've found 5 other guys it wouldn't have been literally impossible. But for the situation I was in, it was.
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That doesn't equate to literally impossible. That was difficult - that is all. You made one phone call and resolved it. That means it wasn't literally impossible.
 
jtheune said:
In your OP you said you were parked on the hardstand. You whined about their planning when I say look in the mirror. I can understand that your not happy about the issue but to try to place this all on someone elsess shoulders smacks of a large case of denial on your part.
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I was going off of the procedures they had used ALL WEEK and the procedures that Basler, Orion and EAA told people to use to get fuel service. So when they change everything on Thursday without any notification you can't really plan for that. I'm not in denial about anything. I'm simply stating that they changed the way they operated and made it very difficult to get fuel.
 
jesse said:
That doesn't equate to literally impossible. That was difficult - that is all. You made one phone call and resolved it. That means it wasn't literally impossible.
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Pulling a plane by yourself in the grass for half a mile is literally impossible. We were lucky and knew the airport manager and made a call. If we hadn't we would have had to make a stop somewhere adding some extra time to our trip.
 
mitchellfstafford said:
Pulling a plane by yourself in the grass for half a mile is literally impossible. We were lucky and knew the airport manager and made a call. If we hadn't we would have had to make a stop somewhere adding some extra time to our trip.
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There are plenty of people that could easily pull a 172 a half mile on grass, me included. It would take me awhile but it isn't impossible. Airventure is full of people and finding a few people to help you push an airplane a few thousand feet wouldn't be impossible either. It'd be rather easy with 5 or 6 people.

You ended up getting the airplane fueled which proves it wasn't impossible.

Impossible is a very strong word. Your thread title indicated getting fuel at Airventure was literally impossible. But yet you got fuel at airventure. If you can do the impossible it wasn't impossible. Hundreds or thousands of others also got fuel this year at Airventure.

Now when people search about Airventure and fuel they'll see this thread saying that it is impossible. They might read more to find out that it was mislabeled or they might think fuel is not available.
 
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At SnF, Osh, or whatever, always handle the fuel on the day you arrive. Otherwise you'll end up deferring it to the last minute and that's usually a goat rope..
 
jesse said:
There are plenty of people that could easily pull a 172 a half mile on grass, me included. It would take me awhile but it isn't impossible. Airventure is full of people and finding a few people to help you push an airplane a few thousand feet wouldn't be impossible either. It'd be rather easy with 5 or 6 people.

You ended up getting the airplane fueled which proves it wasn't impossible.

Impossible is a very strong word. Your thread title indicated getting fuel at Airventure was literally impossible. But yet you got fuel at airventure. If you can do the impossible it wasn't impossible. Hundreds or thousands of others also got fuel this year at Airventure.

Now when people search about Airventure and fuel they'll see this thread saying that it is impossible. They might read more to find out that it was mislabeled or they might think fuel is not available.
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I had a great time up there and can't wait to go back. You're diving way to deep into this. Excuse me for expressing my opinion on the way that things were handled that day. Most pilots I know are great people and are willing to help, as you just stated. I could've probably found some people to help me push my plane up there, yeah. But you're just antagonizing me and trying to prove that you're right. Sorry for using the phrase "literally impossible." I guess I should've used the phrase "nearly impossible." Would that have kept you off my back?
 
jesse said:
That doesn't equate to literally impossible. That was difficult - that is all. You made one phone call and resolved it. That means it wasn't literally impossible.
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Picky, picky. You're picking up bad habits.
 
AuntPeggy said:
Picky, picky. You're picking up bad habits.
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No I'm just pointing out the thread title that people see on search engines and while browsing the forum is completely misleading and not representative of the fuel situation at Airventure.
 
We landed with enough fuel to get on out and to an appropriate fuel stop (within, say, an hour of OSH). This also fit in with not being too heavy on the reportedly-smooshy ground.

When, on Saturday, the forecast made it look like the whole area would be IFR in the morning, we decided we'd gas up (if reasonably possible), and fly further so we did not have to shoot an approach to a gas stop. Called Basler that evening, placed a detailed fuel order, and arrived early in the morning to see the fueler just finishing up, fuel dispensed per instructions.

Could not have been more pleased.
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Literally! :cornut:
 
mitchellfstafford said:
Hey Matthew,

No, I'm not in that club anymore. I'm flying a 172 out of downtown airport now. You been getting up much lately?
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Now and then.

This has not been a good year...literally (sorry about that, but I had to stay with the theme.)
 
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