Gasoline Direct Injection [NA]

Daleandee

Final Approach
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Dale Andee
Recently bought a vehicle (Nissan) with GDI. I've heard various stories about the good, the bad, and the ugly concerning this method of fuel delivery. Just curious how many others are driving vehicles with GDI, how you manage it (if needed to do so), any problems you have experienced, and any wisdom from those that have long term experience using GDI.

So far it seems that using a high quality oil with regular changes is one of the best approaches to keeping the intake system clean. Thoughts?
 
Your vehicle most likely specifies full synthetic oil and I can’t imagine finding unleaded gas that is not top tier specification with the necessary detergents these days.

Other than that, I just drive mine.
 
So my basic answer would be follow the maintenance intervals in your owners manual and don't worry about it.

RE: oil, I don't see how oil would make any difference in keeping the intake clean. If any oil is getting into the intake something is leaking or broken. The issue there would be with a traditional engine the fuel/air mix goes by the valves and the gasoline(which is a decent solvent) washes the valves. I believe direct injection bypasses the valves, directly spraying gas into the cylinder so that washing action never happens. You'd probably need to get some kind of solvent like a typical fuel injector cleaner into the intake. The old school method is to get a can of seafoam and use a vaccum port somewhere to suck it into the running engine. Probably not something the typical non-gearhead owner really wants to do.

The other thing that can clean valves is simply getting the engine up to full operating temperature and running it hard. Heat burns carbon off of valves... I know this kind of thing can be an issue on cars that just drive short distances in town. A drive on a warm-ish day on the interstate generally does the job.

Again I refer back to my first sentence, I would probably just follow the owner's manual service intervals and not worry too much unless there's a problem or a known issue with your specific engine.
 
Buy good gas, I'd avoid the cheapo unbranded stuff. Other than that, maintain per factory specs. If something goes wrong it's most likely not your fault.
 
. . . If any oil is getting into the intake something is leaking or broken. The issue there would be with a traditional engine the fuel/air mix goes by the valves and the gasoline(which is a decent solvent) washes the valves. I believe direct injection bypasses the valves, directly spraying gas into the cylinder so that washing action never happens.

PCV reroutes crankcase air back into the intake for most vehicles. This results in oil deposits over time, which gasoline was fairly decent at keeping minimized when injected above the valves. Having the fuel injected in the cylinders means that the oil buildup is more prevalent. Synthetic oils help eliminate some of that.
 
I believe it was Mitsubishi that pioneered GDI in mass-produced cars back in 1996. I'd wager that's enough to time to for the technology to mature. I wouldn't worry about it too much.
 
PCV reroutes crankcase air back into the intake for most vehicles. This results in oil deposits over time, which gasoline was fairly decent at keeping minimized when injected above the valves. Having the fuel injected in the cylinders means that the oil buildup is more prevalent. Synthetic oils help eliminate some of that.

Correct. From what information I can find using a better grade of engine oil will greatly help to minimize deposits on the valves. For the idea of using a cleaner through the intake there is some warning against this as some sensors could be damaged. Some have suggested the insertion of a "catch can" in the PVC line to help capture any oil coming from crankcase blow-by. Thus the reason for the questions.

As suggested above I believe I'll follow the maintenance given by Nissan and not worry too much about it ...
 
I believe it was Mitsubishi that pioneered GDI in mass-produced cars back in 1996. I'd wager that's enough to time to for the technology to mature. I wouldn't worry about it too much.
Well if it's one thing I wouldn't look to Mitsubishi for, it's having solid/lasting engine designs lol. There's a 50/50 chance that any Mitsubishi on the road has a blue smoke trail coming out of the tailpipe. May as well be 2-strokes.
 
Well if it's one thing I wouldn't look to Mitsubishi for, it's having solid/lasting engine designs lol. There's a 50/50 chance that any Mitsubishi on the road has a blue smoke trail coming out of the tailpipe. May as well be 2-strokes.
Haha. Mazda's been using it since 2012 and I think that's around the time the rest of the industry started following suit.
 
Haha. Mazda's been using it since 2012 and I think that's around the time the rest of the industry started following suit.
I think all of Ford's EcoBoost engines are DI, which was around 2010 I believe. They had their teething problems with the oil/valve issues but have pretty much got it under control from my understanding.
 
I think all of Ford's EcoBoost engines are DI, which was around 2010 I believe. They had their teething problems with the oil/valve issues but have pretty much got it under control from my understanding.
True, but I think that 2010 date might have been European-only at the time.
 
PCV reroutes crankcase air back into the intake for most vehicles. This results in oil deposits over time, which gasoline was fairly decent at keeping minimized when injected above the valves. Having the fuel injected in the cylinders means that the oil buildup is more prevalent. Synthetic oils help eliminate some of that.

Also don't forget EGR, which literally puts exhaust back into the engine and that builds up as well.

However, a lot of direct injection gasoline engines ALSO have multi-port fuel injectors. Ford did this on the 2nd gen Ecoboosts as I recall. My wife's Alfa is also set up this way.

It's more complex, and I'm not sure how much of one is used vs. the other. But apparently it works pretty well.

I wouldn't be concerned about a direct injection engine. GM is even selling a lot of their direct injected engines as crate motors which are being used in engine swaps.
 
Also don't forget EGR, which literally puts exhaust back into the engine and that builds up as well.

However, a lot of direct injection gasoline engines ALSO have multi-port fuel injectors. Ford did this on the 2nd gen Ecoboosts as I recall. My wife's Alfa is also set up this way.

It's more complex, and I'm not sure how much of one is used vs. the other. But apparently it works pretty well.

I wouldn't be concerned about a direct injection engine. GM is even selling a lot of their direct injected engines as crate motors which are being used in engine swaps.
Yeah, that extra heat from the EGR really helps bake on the oil/soot deposits. But it's better for the environment, lol. Oddly enough, my 6.0L diesel is a lighter-weight variant which is lighter by exactly the weight of the EGR/EGR valve.
 
Yeah, that extra heat from the EGR really helps bake on the oil/soot deposits. But it's better for the environment, lol. Oddly enough, my 6.0L diesel is a lighter-weight variant which is lighter by exactly the weight of the EGR/EGR valve.

EGRs on diesel have been problematic in basically every version I'm aware of. Some companies have done it worse than others (with the PSD 6.0/International in general being among the worst, no doubt) but even Cummins don't do well with it.

Gas engines it's not been as problematic, but I think the big reason there is multi-port fuel injection essentially providing self-cleaning on the valves. The only problem I've ever had with a gasoline engine with EGR has been if the EGR design got plugged up and it got a check engine light for low EGR flow. My 1992 Town Car (first year of the 4.6L V8) had this issue. It was a simple fix - the EGR passageway in the intake/throttle body area was too small. Get access to it, scrape out the soot with a small screwdriver, no more light and it actually did run a bit smoother.

The RV's 3126 doesn't have EGR or even PCV, and of course has direct injection. Even still I found some sort of residue/whatever when I opened up the intake system to replace the intercooler. I suspect just the turbo seals leaking ever so slightly over 100k+ miles. After running some water/methanol injection I have found the engine seeming to run a bit smoother, and I've wondered how much of that is due to general residue cleaning and perhaps cleaning up some build-up in the cylinders.
 
Also don't forget EGR, which literally puts exhaust back into the engine and that builds up as well.

However, a lot of direct injection gasoline engines ALSO have multi-port fuel injectors. Ford did this on the 2nd gen Ecoboosts as I recall. My wife's Alfa is also set up this way.

It's more complex, and I'm not sure how much of one is used vs. the other. But apparently it works pretty well.

I wouldn't be concerned about a direct injection engine. GM is even selling a lot of their direct injected engines as crate motors which are being used in engine swaps.
Are you saying a direct injector and an intake manifold injector for each cylinder? That seems kind of pointless.
 
Are you saying a direct injector and an intake manifold injector for each cylinder? That seems kind of pointless.

Yes, that's how it's set up.

Basically as I understand it, that gives you the emissions and running benefits of direct injection (emissions being the big thing these days I'm assuming) with the reliability aspects of multi-port. I have no idea how it divides up the fueling.
 
Yes, that's how it's set up.

Basically as I understand it, that gives you the emissions and running benefits of direct injection (emissions being the big thing these days I'm assuming) with the reliability aspects of multi-port. I have no idea how it divides up the fueling.
I don't know the programming logic on it, either. I wouldn't be surprised if the direct injector operates at idle and low-load for emissions and then the secondary upstream injector runs more when higher loads are called for, or perhaps a periodic cycle for the "cleaning" benefits.
 
I don't know the programming logic on it, either. I wouldn't be surprised if the direct injector operates at idle and low-load for emissions and then the secondary upstream injector runs more when higher loads are called for, or perhaps a periodic cycle for the "cleaning" benefits.

That's more or less how I was figuring it probably operates. I'd also assume direct injectors for starting since that should be better starting (and especially better starting emissions) but someone else who deals with this stuff for a living can tell me more.

Meanwhile, I'm just enjoying the Cobra. Turn key, it starts consistently and reliably every time. Emissions? Yes, it has them. :)
 
True, but I think that 2010 date might have been European-only at the time.
2010 Ford Focus was the first equipped 4-cylinder EcoBoost, as well as the 2010 Volvo S60. The 6-cylinder twin turbo was offered in the 2010 Ford Flex, Lincoln MKS/MKT, Taurus SHO, and Police Interceptor. If memory serves, I think GM was initially wanting to do a joint venture on the active fuel managment design (cylinder deactivation/shut-down) and Ford declined as they had put their eggs in the direct-injection bucket for fuel efficiency and emissions. GM had the EcoTec turbo 4-banger back in the mid-00's that got shoved in all sorts of vehicles but they didn't really expand much on larger engine designs until later.
 
2010 Ford Focus was the first equipped 4-cylinder EcoBoost, as well as the 2010 Volvo S60. The 6-cylinder twin turbo was offered in the 2010 Ford Flex, Lincoln MKS/MKT, Taurus SHO, and Police Interceptor. If memory serves, I think GM was initially wanting to do a joint venture on the active fuel managment design (cylinder deactivation/shut-down) and Ford declined as they had put their eggs in the direct-injection bucket for fuel efficiency and emissions. GM had the EcoTec turbo 4-banger back in the mid-00's that got shoved in all sorts of vehicles but they didn't really expand much on larger engine designs until later.

Although GM went direct injection at some point on the V6s and V8s (at least a good number of them). I don't think that the Hemis are direct injection yet, which is an interesting note that they somehow seem to manage the emissions fine with multi-port/cylinder deactivation/start-stop.
 
Although GM went direct injection at some point on the V6s and V8s (at least a good number of them). I don't think that the Hemis are direct injection yet, which is an interesting note that they somehow seem to manage the emissions fine with multi-port/cylinder deactivation/start-stop.
It's interesting for sure, although they may have been meeting current EPA regs and not planning for future regs with the HEMI lineup. I'm sure there's all sorts of interesting product line calculations that determine how they meet the specs for emissions and fleet mileage improvements. Challenger's going EV anyway, lol.

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It's interesting for sure, although they may have been meeting current EPA regs and not planning for future regs with the HEMI lineup. I'm sure there's all sorts of interesting product line calculations that determine how they meet the specs for emissions and fleet mileage improvements. Challenger's going EV anyway, lol.

And that might be the thing. They may have the Hemi planned for trucks or other more emissions lenient vehicles. I recall hearing that there is a turbo 6 planned with >1,000 HP, faster even then the Demon 170.

The Gen 3 Hemi is a pretty old engine by today's production standards, so yeah, likely not long for the production world.
 
It's fine. The three cars that I've owned in my day have all been GDI. Maintain it right and you won't notice a difference for everyday driving. Run some Lucas injector cleaner through it every thousand miles or so.
The other thing that can clean valves is simply getting the engine up to full operating temperature and running it hard.
Agree, but shouldn't have to run it *that* hard. Flawed engineering if that's the case, as most people's daily driving won't achieve that.
 
A real good fuel injector cleaner is Techron. Don't have to use it often may be once or twice a year.

Carbon EGR deposits have been an auto problem for decades. Saw then almost daily for 15 years. Doesn't seem to be an issue today with the exception of some diesels.
 
Haha. Mazda's been using it since 2012 and I think that's around the time the rest of the industry started following suit.

The Europeans (such as Audi/VW) have been doing direct injection a lot longer than that. Some of their early injection systems left a bit to be desired but even those are systems I'd consider generally good.

Are you saying a direct injector and an intake manifold injector for each cylinder? That seems kind of pointless.

That's what they're saying, and it isn't pointless at all. It will help keep the intake ports less gunked up and reduce or eliminate the need for walnut blasting the intake ports to clean them out after 50-75k of oil and exhaust soot buildup.

I don't know the programming logic on it, either. I wouldn't be surprised if the direct injector operates at idle and low-load for emissions and then the secondary upstream injector runs more when higher loads are called for,

That's essentially the strategy behind it.


Regarding the injection systems and maintenance on the vehicle, just care for them like anything else. I have seen very little in the way of major injection system problems and there's nothing specific that you could realistically do to avoid the problems that may arise anyway. Follow the recommended service intervals and use decent fuels and lubricants and things will be as good as they're going to be.
 
It's fine. The three cars that I've owned in my day have all been GDI. Maintain it right and you won't notice a difference for everyday driving. Run some Lucas injector cleaner through it every thousand miles or so.

Agree, but shouldn't have to run it *that* hard. Flawed engineering if that's the case, as most people's daily driving won't achieve that.
The injector cleaner every 1000 miles is overkill, although won’t hurt if you use a good one.

Also, the “Italian tune-up” has been a staple of the automotive world for decades. Definitely less needed now than it used to be, but still has its benefits. Good to blow the carbon out of an engine every now and then, and depending on design a lot of engines are happier run hard.
 
So far it seems that using a high quality oil with regular changes is one of the best approaches to keeping the intake system clean. Thoughts?
Hi.
I think that is a good procedure to keep it running for a long time.
From time to time, at least once a week, when traffic permits, when I enter the freeway I will test the 0-65 times, in this case more like 40-65 if it does not make it in under 1 sec I will do it again. When I get a chance, no cars / cops I will go a little faster, basically just keep it wide open for about 5-10 sec.
There is about 2200 PSI in the system, and very narrow openings, and you can feel it rather quickly if it's not clean.
Typically after I do that I can feel better response and I have an idiot light that turns from green to orange for a few seconds, that's a feed back that it got the message.
It's very typical to have a rough low idle when it's not clean. I never found that any additives work in any of my cars I had, just clean fuel / good oil, every 2k M, keep them cool and if I know I will run it hard I will use premium fuel in it.
In the olden days I used to get aircraft fuel from the airport in my Z28, and the Dodge R/T, which were highly modified and being pushed fairly hard at least once a week.
 
Re: "good gasolines." In my area, the only difference between Sardeep's corner station and Chevron/Mobil/Shell is the additives. It's stockpiled in regional distribution centers used by all the retailers in 87 and 91 grades, and blended for 89.
 
Re: "good gasolines." In my area, the only difference between Sardeep's corner station and Chevron/Mobil/Shell is the additives. It's stockpiled in regional distribution centers used by all the retailers in 87 and 91 grades, and blended for 89.

I think California has a tighter hold on what gasoline can be sold and how it's sold.

If nothing else, around here you have quite the variety, with some stations also selling E0 gasoline in varying grades (including some non-standard numbers).

You also have some stations that are better than others in terms of contamination. The only fuel contamination issues I've ever had in my life have come from one gas station around here. One even got us a $2500ish check from their insurance due to water in fuel on my wife's Mercedes.

As you might imagine, we don't get fuel there anymore.
 
Good to blow the carbon out of an engine every now and then, and depending on design a lot of engines are happier run hard.

Back in the olden days when I was a mechanic we would have old folks complain about their engine having a strange vibration. I would take it out and blow out the system using heavy acceleration. Also I would get a spray bottle full of water and spray it down the carb with the engine running/revved up. This would clean carbon deposits off the valves, pistons and spark plugs. I would not charge the customer for the cheap ''fix'', which they liked.

This was on carbureted engines, I don't know if it would work on computer controlled fuel injected engines.
 
Back in the olden days when I was a mechanic we would have old folks complain about their engine having a strange vibration. I would take it out and blow out the system using heavy acceleration. Also I would get a spray bottle full of water and spray it down the carb with the engine running/revved up. This would clean carbon deposits off the valves, pistons and spark plugs. I would not charge the customer for the cheap ''fix'', which they liked.

This was on carbureted engines, I don't know if it would work on computer controlled fuel injected engines.

Reminds me of when I would go visit my mom and take her slant six Dodge for a quick spin. Pull out on the highway and hammer it and see that black soot pouring out the back. After a couple of those runs it was much better. No, she wasn't riding with me when this was done!

As far as running cleaner through the intake, Nissan warns about that as they say some sensors could be damaged. But, now that you mention it, water might be an idea to ponder on a bit ... :idea:
 
I think California has a tighter hold on what gasoline can be sold and how it's sold.

If nothing else, around here you have quite the variety, with some stations also selling E0 gasoline in varying grades (including some non-standard numbers).

You also have some stations that are better than others in terms of contamination. The only fuel contamination issues I've ever had in my life have come from one gas station around here. One even got us a $2500ish check from their insurance due to water in fuel on my wife's Mercedes.

As you might imagine, we don't get fuel there anymore.
Curious, how did you prove that it came from their fuel?
 
I think California has a tighter hold on what gasoline can be sold and how it's sold.

If nothing else, around here you have quite the variety, with some stations also selling E0 gasoline in varying grades (including some non-standard numbers).

You also have some stations that are better than others in terms of contamination. The only fuel contamination issues I've ever had in my life have come from one gas station around here. One even got us a $2500ish check from their insurance due to water in fuel on my wife's Mercedes.

As you might imagine, we don't get fuel there anymore.
Well there is the contamination issue. I did fill my BMW 1200RT up with Sardeep's best, and not only did it run a bit rough, but the fuel measuring strip quit working (fouled?) and failed at the quarter tank point. Yes it had a fuel gauge. It was the only time I ran out of gas in anything, ever.
 
Back in the olden days when I was a mechanic we would have old folks complain about their engine having a strange vibration. I would take it out and blow out the system using heavy acceleration. Also I would get a spray bottle full of water and spray it down the carb with the engine running/revved up. This would clean carbon deposits off the valves, pistons and spark plugs. I would not charge the customer for the cheap ''fix'', which they liked.

This was on carbureted engines, I don't know if it would work on computer controlled fuel injected engines.

As with most things, the answer is "It depends". The general blowing the carbon out is still a thing. Less so than it was in the carbureted days since fuel mixture is much more regulated and leaded fuel with associated deposits is no longer a thing in the automotive world (granted the leaded fuel aspect mostly independent from carburetors). But, engines still benefit from some heat and pressure in them. Older fuel injected cars (where they had more leeway with mixtures) especially could benefit from it, but even new ones can. However regarding the water...

Reminds me of when I would go visit my mom and take her slant six Dodge for a quick spin. Pull out on the highway and hammer it and see that black soot pouring out the back. After a couple of those runs it was much better. No, she wasn't riding with me when this was done!

As far as running cleaner through the intake, Nissan warns about that as they say some sensors could be damaged. But, now that you mention it, water might be an idea to ponder on a bit ... :idea:

The sensors are the big thing. Water, if it gets in them, can throw off the readings as well or outright cause issues. Since water from condensation can be an issue you usually see sensors oriented inlet down so that they don't have problems, but it can still be something to consider. On a car with a hot-wire MAF sensor, those are especially sensitive.

Oils can be issues as well here, which is part of why I won't run a K&N filter on any of my newer cars and stick to paper. Some people would say that means I'm over-oiling the filter and they've never had issues. That may be correct, but I'll just stick to paper for me.

I installed water injection on the bus (for intake cooling purposes mostly) and it does seem to be running better after running a pretty decent amount of water and water/methanol mixture through the engine on the last trip (more straight water than water/meth, but both have happened). I'm sure that after >120k miles of running, even without any sort of PCV/CCV or EGR, there is/was a level of gunk that was on the valves that got cleaned up and had to have helped flow. Maybe also cleaned some gunk off of the grid heater on the intake. That engine (Cat 3126B) is old enough that within the intake path there aren't many sensors, basically just boost and intake air temp. Theoretically that water/methanol mixture should be mostly evaporated by the time it reaches the valves, but the steam cleaning effect still appears to have done something. It would be really interesting to put a borescope into the intake on that engine now and see how it looks. Would've been even more interesting to do a before and after.

(The water/methanol mixture would be more commonly known as "Windshield Washer Fluid" - but only certain kinds - when picking that out you specifically look for ones that are around 30%+ methanol)

Curious, how did you prove that it came from their fuel?

Fill up tank -> car immediately runs like crap. It was isolated to their tank of premium in the case where we complained and got an insurance payout. They'd gotten calls from everyone who'd filled up with premium that day (and maybe some 89 folks). They didn't fight it and just referred me to their insurance company.

Other times, we mostly had seen issues with having bought 87 there (it's the closest gas station to our house) and then our various tractors/mowers not running well afterwards. We just avoid buying any gas there now.
 
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