Chip Sylverne
Final Approach
- Joined
- Jun 17, 2006
- Messages
- 6,007
- Display Name
Display name:
Quit with the negative waves, man.
That's the G5 manual. I'm looking for the 175 manual.
Garmin just dropped a bomb on the avionics market...
- Thread starter flyingcheesehead
- Start date
That's the G5 manual. I'm looking for the 175 manual.
flyingcheesehead
Touchdown! Greaser!
Yeah, it's gonna be a lot more involved than that. That doesn't have the power wired through breakers, or the pitot/static hookups, or the magnetometer, or the GAD 29B, or any of the existing stuff. In fact, the biggest part of the installation is mounting and wiring servos, and that doesn't have any. Plus, you can't just have loose wires flying around like that in an airplane.
Not to mention, there's all of the old stuff to pull out.
It does not... Yet.
I mean, it works with things the same way the G5 does. It'll provide heading and course deviation to legacy autopilots, but it will not provide attitude. In many cases, yours and mine included, this would mean keeping the KI-256 and the vacuum system. Otherwise, your options at the moment are Aspen or TXi.
I have heard that there is supposed to be a new version of the G5, or something like it, that can run legacy autopilots, very soon. In fact, I was surprised that wasn't announced along with this other stuff.
It could still be coming at SnF... Garmin has been a little weird with these announcements. If you read all the stuff on BeechTalk from Monday about the G3X, the A36 crowd was all kinds of ****ed about the G3X not working with legacy autopilots and the GFC 500 not being certified for the A36. Then, Garmin announced on Tuesday that the certification of the GFC 500 on the A36 was already in progress... They sure would have made a lot of people happier if they just announced that on Monday instead.
- Joined
- Sep 26, 2011
- Messages
- 1,635
- Location
- State of Confusion
- Display Name
Display name:
chartbundle
I've noticed that Garmin is much closer in their announcements to a company like Apple than some of the other companies(cough, King, cough) in that they don't tend to announce things until they're actually approved and ready to ship with a close to definite date. So, hopefully the GAD 29e or whatever it's going to be called is simply in progress but not actually in a state they want to announce it yet, rather than being mocked like the KI-300/KA-310.
flyingcheesehead
Touchdown! Greaser!
True, but they could save a lot of sales for themselves if they said "And we'll be supporting legacy autopilots with the G5 and G3X Touch. We're aiming for a Q4 release." Otherwise, a bunch of people with legacy autopilots are going to think "Well, Garmin screwed me again, I can't afford their autopilot and mine works OK, so I'm going to go with Aspen." Then, they'll be ticked when Garmin comes out with support immediately afterward.
You certainly don't want to announce something that isn't going to happen... And even Apple just did that, after announcing their AirPower charging solution in 2017, they officially cancelled it today! But with as much as we pay for the stuff we put in our panels, and the length of time for which we keep it, it sure would be nice to be able to plan for things that are going to happen soon.
BrianNC
En-Route
Garmin Closes the Deal
Paul Bertorelli
I have no idea if this is how it works, but I imagine someone at Garmin must have said, “Hey, why don’t we just yank the radio out of the GTN navigator and stuff the rest of it into a standard rack-size panel box? Put a pretty display on it.” Maybe someone at an avionics shop suggested it. Wouldn’t have been me, because I’m too much of a dullard to appreciate the potential until it’s explained to me. And maybe not even then...
Read more
Paul Bertorelli
I have no idea if this is how it works, but I imagine someone at Garmin must have said, “Hey, why don’t we just yank the radio out of the GTN navigator and stuff the rest of it into a standard rack-size panel box? Put a pretty display on it.” Maybe someone at an avionics shop suggested it. Wouldn’t have been me, because I’m too much of a dullard to appreciate the potential until it’s explained to me. And maybe not even then...
Read more
JohnAJohnson
Cleared for Takeoff
- Joined
- Aug 14, 2006
- Messages
- 1,323
- Location
- Orange Beach, AL
- Display Name
Display name:
JohnAJohnson
Walled Garden. If Garmin makes Pilot the only app compatible with their ADS-B IN unit, I won't buy either, and if they insist that the G3X will only talk to Garmin navigators, I'll shop elsewhere.
I am disappointed that more of us aren't pushing back on the closed system concept that more and more hardware and software manufacturers are moving toward. It is certainly a way to retain customers and increase sales, but it relies on customers willingly limiting their choices. Example: I install a G3X along with a 650. All is well and then your 650 battery goes dead and it'll cost a flat rate $1800 for that little battery replacement. In the mean time, The Bendyne company comes out with a new navigator with features out of this world, for $3500. Slides into the 650 slot too. Unfortunately, to continue to use your G3X, you have to either fix the 650 or buy the new replacement 850 for $5500 plus installation since it isn't a slide in.
I am disappointed that more of us aren't pushing back on the closed system concept that more and more hardware and software manufacturers are moving toward. It is certainly a way to retain customers and increase sales, but it relies on customers willingly limiting their choices. Example: I install a G3X along with a 650. All is well and then your 650 battery goes dead and it'll cost a flat rate $1800 for that little battery replacement. In the mean time, The Bendyne company comes out with a new navigator with features out of this world, for $3500. Slides into the 650 slot too. Unfortunately, to continue to use your G3X, you have to either fix the 650 or buy the new replacement 850 for $5500 plus installation since it isn't a slide in.
MooneyDriver78
En-Route
- Joined
- Aug 13, 2013
- Messages
- 4,691
- Display Name
Display name:
Tom
Close systems means testing is easier and certification is quicker and cheaper.
Buy TXI if you want more support for OEMs.
Tom
Buy TXI if you want more support for OEMs.
Tom
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
Not just GP. They cut a deal with foreflight to pay them off so no other apps besides FF and GP will work inside the garden. All in the name of "security." More like collusion.
Meanwhile L3's ADS-B talks to just about everything out there.
flyingcheesehead
Touchdown! Greaser!
It also makes it much easier on the company. Making things infinitely compatible with other things is really hard. If you just make your own thing that works really well with a limited set of your other things, it's much easier. Just ask Apple and Microsoft's OS teams... Apple only has to make their OS run on their own hardware. Pretty simple in the grand scheme of things. Meanwhile, Microsoft has to make theirs run on ALL the hardware, and they don't even have control over what that hardware is or how it's hooked together.
JohnAJohnson
Cleared for Takeoff
- Joined
- Aug 14, 2006
- Messages
- 1,323
- Location
- Orange Beach, AL
- Display Name
Display name:
JohnAJohnson
Microsoft is still here because they don't require you to buy a Microsoft Printer, or Microsoft Mouse, or Microsoft Disk Drive. Their competitors did and are long dead.
As far as avionics, I disagree that it makes it easier on the company. It is probably more difficult/expensive to force compatibility with select products than it is to subscribe to a standard, such as a navigation or autopilot sentence sent over an RS232 bus, or to use the well established GDL90 ADS-B protocol (which does everything a closed, encrypted, proprietary protocol does without the additional cost of the encryption and protocol development). We should make no mistake understanding why a manufacturer, be it Garmin, Apple, Foreflight, or Commodore tries to close a system and it isn't for the end users benefit.
Juliet Hotel
En-Route
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2018
- Messages
- 2,634
- Display Name
Display name:
Juliet Hotel
Microsoft is still here because they cut deals with every major OEM except Apple to get a Windows license fee for every new machine that went out the door whether their software was on it or not.
Warmi
Line Up and Wait
No , they offer the best OS for a garden variety PC - your other options are OSX that runs on premium priced hardware or Linux which is not really a desktop OS to beging with.
Most of these systems have drivers defined by Microsoft to enforce compatibility with Microsoft software. And most times, the drivers are not backwards compatible. I'm still running Win7 on my tower because I have peripherals that are no longer supported by newer versions of Windows.
May not be out yet because the 175 isn't shipping yet....I noticed that Spruce is the first supplier advertising the 175 (as of this timestamp) with deliveries after April 15, MSRP $4999, Spruce (and other suppliers) $4295.
Chip Sylverne
Final Approach
- Joined
- Jun 17, 2006
- Messages
- 6,007
- Display Name
Display name:
Quit with the negative waves, man.
Yeah it is. I contacted a Garmin dealer, he sent me a .pdf. Sarasota has it up for $4295 as well, shipping late April. What's gonna hurt me is a relay and ACU. My old one's not compatible, and new ones ain't cheap. Almost makes sense to go with a G5 HSI setup at the same time for a couple amu more. Almost.
Last edited:
flyingcheesehead
Touchdown! Greaser!
I never said it was for the end user's benefit. It's for the company's benefit, for sure. But if it allows that company to make products that work together really well, it's good for the user too. If being compatible with everything possible is a contributing cause to them going out of business, that's not very good for the end user either.
Why is that hardware premium priced, do you think?
And why do you say Linux is not at desktop OS?
But not everyone wants or needs a garden variety PC. And various flavors of Linux do have a desktop GUI, and there are at least 2 free applications that work pretty seamlessly with MS Office (word, excel, powerpoint) - except for Access. No one has managed to create a decent app that replicates or even plays nicely with Access. On the other hand, many people who would use Access are happy with viable alternatives.
Warmi
Line Up and Wait
It is premium priced because it is Apple - the actual hardware that matters is the same as in PCs ..all these chips they come from the same factories after all..
As far as Linux if you want truly integrated desktop running Unix , go fo OSX.
flyingcheesehead
Touchdown! Greaser!
Right. Nothing special about the actual computer hardware. There are two things you're paying for: One is the external design you're paying for, and the OS doesn't give one whit about that.
The other is that the thing just works, and is FAR easier to keep running than Windows is. People used to say to me, "But... You're a COMPUTER guy? Why do you use a Mac?" And my reply was that after spending all day keeping their Windows boxes running, the last thing I wanted to do was to go home and have to do the same for my own.
And Apple is able to make this happen because of their walled-garden approach. Their OS runs on their hardware, and their hardware alone, so they don't have to be continuously testing and updating for new hardware the way Microsoft does.
Yep, that was kind of my point - There's not really such a thing as a "desktop OS" any more. OS X is definitely far easier than Linux is, but there are some Linux distros that have made great strides in usability.
Ok, I am rethinking this for myself now. My Archer has 2 VOR receivers and an ADF. No GPS. The long term plan includes moving up to a faster plane. So I think putting a 175 in (I already have ADS-B) with a 2nd G5 might be the best way to go, assuming my old King radios don't crap out. If I leave my ADF in (don't laugh) that would give my all available approaches right? I can do ILS with my VOR glideslope receiver, VOR/DME with my VOR and DME equipment, and LPV with the 175. And if I leave the ADF in I can do NDB approaches (my home Class C still has one). Not instrument rated, so forgive my ignorance. Does a 650/750 get me lower minimums on an approach than a 175 would get me?
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2015
- Messages
- 9,306
- Display Name
Display name:
Aztec Flyer
Garmin may limit the G5 compatability with legacy autopilots. Otherwise it will risk cannibalizing a good portion of the TXi and GFC500 market.
The split may come between G5/legacy autopilot/TruTrac retrofit capability for the training market aircraft (172s/Cherokees) and no G5/autopilot certification for non-trainers - those fancy A36s, Mooneys, higher horsepower Pipers and Cessnas, and of course all the twin piston legacy aircraft out there. We will have to pay more.
Last edited:
Actually, you'd be a over-equipped. You are correct in that you still need an ADF to fly an NDB approach and cannot substitute the 175 for that. However, you can substitute the 175 for the DME.
Also, you can substitute the 175 for everything else that uses an ADF. Just not an NDB approach.
Katamarino
Pattern Altitude
Based on my experience, anyone who has to put any effort into keeping a home Windows PC running must still be on Win 95 or something. I just bought a new laptop, the old one ran on Windows with zero effort from me for 9 years.
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2014
- Messages
- 9,770
- Location
- Broken Arrow, OK
- Display Name
Display name:
SoonerAviator
Agreed. I’m sure there are exceptions to the rule, but my Home PCs have generally run untouched for a decade or so each, and they were never anywhere near top of the line to begin with. I’ve used one HP Pavilion WinXP machine I bought in college, one Dell Optiplex Windows 7 machine about 10 years later, and the latest is a Dell XPS Win 10 machine which I only have about a year on. Aside from expanding the internal memory on the two previous machines once each since they were minimally-equipped to begin with, I’ve never had to do any “work” to keep them running.
Have to agree, altho I prefer Mac because I’m a Unix geek. My very old HP Pavillion has been running Win 7 for years with no problems. Other than maxing out the memory (always the cheapest upgrade) I haven’t done much other than keeping drivers and software updated. I’ve got 2 critical applications that require Windows, so I keep it handy.
flyingcheesehead
Touchdown! Greaser!
I'm assuming you're speaking of the NDB 32R at KCMI? Why would you ever fly that approach, when there's an ILS and an RNAV with LPV minimums to the same runway?
I'm not sure there is such a thing as an NDB approach that serves a runway without any other approaches any more. The FAA has done a good job of coming up with new GPS procedures to replace old ones, and increase the number of places you can go in IMC.
Plus, the ADF is a boat anchor. You'll get a good bit of useful load back by ditching it.
If you really want all available approaches for some reason, I think you might still need to install a KNS 80... Last I checked, there were still a handful of VOR/DME RNAV approaches.
Yeah, this was 20 years ago. 95, 98, etc. Windows definitely runs a lot better now than it did then, but it's still not as good as a Mac.
Last edited:
I'm assuming you're speaking of the NDB 32R at KCMI? Why would you ever fly that approach, when there's an ILS and an RNAV with LPV minimums to the same runway?
I'm not sure there is such a thing as an NDB approach that serves a runway without any other approaches any more. The FAA has done a good job of coming up with new GPS procedures to replace old ones, and increase the number of places you can go in IMC.
Plus, the ADF is a boat anchor. You'll get a good bit of useful load back by ditching it.
If you really want all available approaches for some reason, I think you might still need to install a KNS 80... Last I checked, there were still a handful of VOR/DME RNAV approaches.
CMI is not my spot, but yes, mine has an ILS on the same as the NDB. Can't you just let me be nostalgic? There are a few examples where an NDB does not have another non-GPS option. KAAA is one of them to rwy 21, although if I am reading it right, the VOR approach can you get you lower than the NDB approach and you could circle to 21. Keeping the ADF would still get me Cubs games on WGN though.
Groundpounder
En-Route
- Joined
- Jan 27, 2013
- Messages
- 2,951
- Location
- New Hampshire
- Display Name
Display name:
Emerson Bigguns
I've flown as a professional pilot for about 12 years now. I have never once flown an NDB approach outside of training.
Juliet Hotel
En-Route
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2018
- Messages
- 2,634
- Display Name
Display name:
Juliet Hotel
That's what I was thinking. I get being nostalgic, but that nostalgia weighs something. And more weight requires more fuel to go the same distance. More fuel, which is itself weight and therefore requires more fuel yada yada yada. Granted we're not talking about very much weight so not very much fuel. But you're carrying that weight on every flight and likely getting zero or nearly zero utility from it.
If I bought a plane today that had an ADF, it would be out of the plane before the first oil change was done I think.
Just received an informal quote for sale and install of the GNX 375 of $9995.
I thought they were all gone now?Last I checked, there were still a handful of VOR/DME RNAV approaches.
What is the 375 replacing?
An old ARC transponder.
bnt83
Final Approach
My comment was more toward the G3X vs G5 regarding installation labor.
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2014
- Messages
- 9,770
- Location
- Broken Arrow, OK
- Display Name
Display name:
SoonerAviator
. . . Keeping the ADF would still get me Cubs games on WGN though.
Sounds like you found another reason to ditch the thing!
Understood. I went back before I posted and could not tell for certain. Regardless, now we have a data point.
MooneyDriver78
En-Route
- Joined
- Aug 13, 2013
- Messages
- 4,691
- Display Name
Display name:
Tom
Groundpounder
En-Route
- Joined
- Jan 27, 2013
- Messages
- 2,951
- Location
- New Hampshire
- Display Name
Display name:
Emerson Bigguns
Haven't done much flying in 3rd world countries, unless Canada counts as one.
